Reckless = OP?

[lame0]

50 minutes ago, trikk said:

If the Gremlin flavor is based around the 3 or 4 undercosted models then I don`t really mind. I play Arcanists too and if they change wind gamin, Practiced Production/Raptor thing and Sandeep I really wouldn`t consider the flavor "lost". I also play Guild and I`m advocating changing of Nellie too (even though she`s the best Guild master out there).
 

Like I said, you don`t have to remove reckless from the game. You just have to take it off 2-4 models or Adjust their cost.

There is one issue with this in a competitive environment the 2-4 models will just be replaced with other reckless models. Would I take burt for 7+1 for dirty cheater (which btw is rare 2 and makes it a sacred resource)  if he wasn't reckless? No. I could take 2 lightning bugs or 2 slops and then have 6 ap and 10-12 wounds. See this is the issue because reckless is the best part about any gremlin (I'm being honest here... ap wins games today). So with the exception of like three models mctavish, first mate and gracie (and they all basically have 3-4 ap) every competitively played gremlin model has reckless.

bayou gremlins, lighting bugs, slop haulers, swine cursed, trixie, francois, burt, gremlin taxidermist, pigapult and fingers.

(this excludes totems and stuffed piglets because they are too cheap to care).

If you told me hey I'm going to cuddle reckless a little bit (maybe a little more damage or something).  But give every gremlin in the faction reckless then I would be okay with it because then we would have more options and make the faction more fun. (banjonista, mancha roja, moon shinobi, sparks, bayou bushwacker would all be pretty cool with reckless.) I mean half out units are useless in a competitive  environment which kinda sucks. 

[trikk]

14 minutes ago, lame0 said:

There is one issue with this in a competitive environment the 2-4 models will just be replaced with other reckless models. Would I take burt for 7+1 for dirty cheater (which btw is rare 2 and makes it a sacred resource)  if he wasn't reckless? No. I could take 2 lightning bugs or 2 slops and then have 6 ap and 10-12 wounds. See this is the issue because reckless is the best part about any gremlin (I'm being honest here... ap wins games today). So with the exception of like three models mctavish, first mate and gracie (and they all basically have 3-4 ap) every competitively played gremlin model has reckless.

bayou gremlins, lighting bugs, slop haulers, swine cursed, trixie, francois, burt, gremlin taxidermist, pigapult and fingers.

(this excludes totems and stuffed piglets because they are too cheap to care).

If you told me hey I'm going to cuddle reckless a little bit (maybe a little more damage or something).  But give every gremlin in the faction reckless then I would be okay with it because then we would have more options and make the faction more fun. (banjonista, mancha roja, moon shinobi, sparks, bayou bushwacker would all be pretty cool with reckless.) I mean half out units are useless in a competitive  environment which kinda sucks. 

Yes, but Slop Haulers aren`t as powerful with reckless as Swinecursed or Burt. Pigapult won`t give you VP for Claim Jump. I don`t really think half the units you mention are competitively useless because of cross faction power. They are just overshined by the 2-4 top picks like Swinecurse/Burt/Francois/Lightning Bugs that make everything else look pretty bad. 

[lame0]

1 hour ago, trikk said:

Yes, but Slop Haulers aren`t as powerful with reckless as Swinecursed or Burt. Pigapult won`t give you VP for Claim Jump. I don`t really think half the units you mention are competitively useless because of cross faction power. They are just overshined by the 2-4 top picks like Swinecurse/Burt/Francois/Lightning Bugs that make everything else look pretty bad. 

So take the 4 best units in a faction and make them unplayable? thats a great way of making gremlins totally useless. Even by the different tournament ranking systems we aren't even close to being that over the top that we need that kind of total shit show. Lets say for a second that we just made burt bad (and we both are in agreement he will be compared to other options) that sucks to lose our only real killy resilient piece. Francois kills himself and we don't really have any other good min 3-4 damage models.  I think if they do anything I would just cuddle burt a bit but that it because just losing him is HUGE. Also lets not try and make it seem like any of the models that aren't being played because of not having reckless will be used without some kind of buff  (maybe sparks if we get more constructs one day but I digress). Also you got rid of gremlins 4 killyest models... so we would hit like a wet noodle. I'm sorry but that is way to far. Francois isn't even as good as Fransisco.  

Going back to my previous post.

What if the cuddle (to give more models access to reckless) was just Reckless ap must be used last and can not be used for interact actions. That gets rid of move 10 and drop a scheme or 2x schemes in one turn but still lets them attack, move and do other cool stuff as before. The extra ap is still very useful but also keeps the scheme running in control and makes the game a little easier to balance.(it also makes pigs potentially better scheme runners when corn husks is in play which again gives us more variety as a faction).  

The worst part about Gremlins in general is that the power levels of our units are mostly cut and dried which is a real shame because I would love to feel like instead of having 40+ stones of my list decided already I could have some more choices when I see certain factions or schemes. That doesn't mean cuddle us to the ground to make that happen!!!

[trikk]

2 minutes ago, lame0 said:

So take the 4 best units in a faction and make them unplayable? thats a great way of making gremlins totally useless. Even by the different tournament ranking systems we aren't even close to being that over the top that we need that kind of total shit show. Lets say for a second that we just made burt bad (and we both are in agreement he will be compared to other options) that sucks to lose our only real killy resilient piece. Francois kills himself and we don't really have any other good min 3-4 damage models.  I think if they do anything I would just cuddle burt a bit but that it because just losing him is HUGE. Also lets not try and make it seem like any of the models that aren't being played because of not having reckless will be used without some kind of buff  (maybe sparks if we get more constructs one day but I digress). Also you got rid of gremlins 4 killyest models... so we would hit like a wet noodle. I'm sorry but that is way to far. Francois isn't even as good as Fransisco.  

Going back to my previous post.

What if the cuddle (to give more models access to reckless) was just Reckless ap must be used last and can not be used for interact actions. That gets rid of move 10 and drop a scheme or 2x schemes in one turn but still lets them attack, move and do other cool stuff as before. The extra ap is still very useful but also keeps the scheme running in control and makes the game a little easier to balance.(it also makes pigs potentially better scheme runners when corn husks is in play which again gives us more variety as a faction).  

The worst part about Gremlins in general is that the power levels of our units are mostly cut and dried which is a real shame because I would love to feel like instead of having 40+ stones of my list decided already I could have some more choices when I see certain factions or schemes. That doesn't mean cuddle us to the ground to make that happen!!!

If you think toning them down will make them unplayable and gremlins totally useless then I don`t think we can continue this discussion.

Francois has a totally different role than Francisco so thats a totally invalid argument. 

[lame0]

1 hour ago, trikk said:

If you think toning them down will make them unplayable and gremlins totally useless then I don`t think we can continue this discussion.

Francois has a totally different role than Francisco so thats a totally invalid argument. 

How is removing reckless toning them down? it is one their most useful abilities. it's butchering them. How many rooster ridder's do you see nowadays? None. So I don't see it as an option if I want to use them.

Francisco may have slightly different uses but they are both strong fighting units. Both have different levels of flexibility Frank with support and Francois with more flexible ap and destructive power

I think it's pretty condescending to say that because i don't agree with you about removing reckless/ increasing the cost for the 4 models we should end the discussion. There are plenty of ways to adjust a model or two but I don't think going and messing with what makes up 50%-70% stones cost wise of the models in a competitive somer/wong/zip crew (70% for Wong) makes any sense at all. Maybe what im saying is hold your horses. I don't mind Burt going up to 8ss+1 for dirty cheater (though it does hurt) but on the other hand lightning bugs for 6 ss wouldn't really see play (except maybe for somer healing bayous which is counterproductive). Cheap units going from 5 to 6 stones is a 20% cuddle which is way to much. I just think wyrd should be super cautious if they do anything. I just hate thinking about Warhammer 40k where they would let an army work for a while and then cuddle it/ release the best thing since sliced bread 3-6 months later when it's the next factions turn. That's the reason I dropped 40k.

Also the new book is about to drop so let's see what happens with the new stuff for other factions. from what I heard outside of the upgrade cards for masters Gremlins are not getting worth while models which kinda sucks.

[trikk]

16 minutes ago, lame0 said:

How is removing reckless toning them down? it is one their most useful abilities. it's butchering them. How many rooster ridder's do you see nowadays? None. So I don't see it as an option if I want to use them.

Francisco may have slightly different uses but they are both strong fighting units. Both have different levels of flexibility Frank with support and Francois with more flexible ap and destructive power

I think it's pretty condescending to say that because i don't agree with you about removing reckless/ increasing the cost for the 4 models we should end the discussion. There are plenty of ways to adjust a model or two but I don't think going and messing with what makes up 50%-70% stones cost wise of the models in a competitive somer/wong/zip crew (70% for Wong) makes any sense at all. Maybe what im saying is hold your horses. I don't mind Burt going up to 8ss+1 for dirty cheater (though it does hurt) but on the other hand lightning bugs for 6 ss wouldn't really see play (except maybe for somer healing bayous which is counterproductive). Cheap units going from 5 to 6 stones is a 20% cuddle which is way to much. I just think wyrd should be super cautious if they do anything. I just hate thinking about Warhammer 40k where they would let an army work for a while and then cuddle it/ release the best thing since sliced bread 3-6 months later when it's the next factions turn. That's the reason I dropped 40k.

Also the new book is about to drop so let's see what happens with the new stuff for other factions. from what I heard outside of the upgrade cards for masters Gremlins are not getting worth while models which kinda sucks.

Lightning Bugs are insanely good 5SS models. Like probably in top 3 with Slop Haulers. You can tone down their casting attack and leave reckless. It looks like Roosters don't see play because you can't kill them yourself. Thats kind of the point. They would most likely see play in any other faction but in Gremlins they became a suboptimal pick.

Francisco is a very good model. If he had reckless I'd totally be for taking it away ;). However a 7SS model should have such a damage track and reckless.

 

I said it multiple times. I don't think the adjustment should be "remove reckless from x,y,z and thats it". There could be otber changes but those models shouldn't get such easy access to 3 ap each turn.

[DeleteAccount]

Just had the burning need to add a cheeky reply. It tells me volumes that none of the latest batch of gremlin models get reckless and the book before that, I believe only the Swine-cursed got it. It's a rule that they probably regret very very much using so liberally during the edition change because it was a "gremlin thing" but it isn't so bad that it breaks the game, even though it sort of breaks the faction since by the admission of people on this thread, internal balance on Gremlins is crap since most of the good stuff happen to be reckless models. An extra AP is huge and 1 wd with the amount of healing on gremlins is kind of a joke, that it stacks with fast certainly doesn't help. I insist, it hasn't broken the game, but I definitely believe it does more harm than good on most of the models that have it.

It's a whole other beast that you can't really just cuddle it globally and call it a day though, so cuddling Reckless would only really make sense during a "faction revision" of sorts where they commit to have a global go ahead through the whole Gremlin faction to help internal balance flatten instead of being so full of highs and lows and I frankly wouldn't expect anything like that till 3rd Edition. So yeah, it's op, but not THAT op (I despise playing against gremlins, but it´s not like it's unwinnable or anything of the sort and I also feel other factions have their fare share of op bullshit under the hood, specially with how many choices they all have at this stage of the game) and it's not like Gremlins aren't paying a price for it in feeling that half their faction can't even compete.

[lame0]

10 minutes ago, Razhem said:

Just had the burning need to add a cheeky reply. It tells me volumes that none of the latest batch of gremlin models get reckless and the book before that, I believe only the Swine-cursed got it. It's a rule that they probably regret very very much using so liberally during the edition change because it was a "gremlin thing" but it isn't so bad that it breaks the game, even though it sort of breaks the faction since by the admission of people on this thread, internal balance on Gremlins is crap since most of the good stuff happen to be reckless models. An extra AP is huge and 1 wd with the amount of healing on gremlins is kind of a joke, that it stacks with fast certainly doesn't help. I insist, it hasn't broken the game, but I definitely believe it does more harm than good on most of the models that have it.

It's a whole other beast that you can't really just cuddle it globally and call it a day though, so cuddling Reckless would only really make sense during a "faction revision" of sorts where they commit to have a global go ahead through the whole Gremlin faction to help internal balance flatten instead of being so full of highs and lows and I frankly wouldn't expect anything like that till 3rd Edition. So yeah, it's op, but not THAT op (I despise playing against gremlins, but it´s not like it's unwinnable or anything of the sort and I also feel other factions have their fare share of op bullshit under the hood, specially with how many choices they all have at this stage of the game) and it's not like Gremlins aren't paying a price for it in feeling that half their faction can't even compete.

I totally agree with you. The internal balance is such crap right now but it would require so many tweaks to each model to make each one "balanced" around it or without it. I think 3E or at least the onset of a year when the new competitive rules come out would be the time to make those types of decisions. I do see maybe a model or two could be toned down but like you said every faction has at least a few models that are crazy good and I would like them to take a hard look at each faction and consider weakening a few thing from each of them if balance is what they are after. 

51 minutes ago, trikk said:

Lightning Bugs are insanely good 5SS models. Like probably in top 3 with Slop Haulers. You can tone down their casting attack and leave reckless. It looks like Roosters don't see play because you can't kill them yourself. Thats kind of the point. They would most likely see play in any other faction but in Gremlins they became a suboptimal pick.

Francisco is a very good model. If he had reckless I'd totally be for taking it away ;). However a 7SS model should have such a damage track and reckless.

 Ohh come on Francisco is 8ss and has enfrente a mi, el mayor( huge!!), flurry, +1 shooting, +1 ml, +1 def, critical strike & doesn't punch himself in the teeth every time he attacks. Thats a ton. And if you use stilts to mitigate Franc punching himself once he costs 8 ss and now only has one upgrade slot left. So it costs 9 stones with dirty cheater and stilts for a model that is going to kill himself or die to basically anything that attacks him a few times. Hes good but I dunno it seems like Francois is a little worse. 

 

[trikk]

9 minutes ago, lame0 said:

Ohh come on Francisco is 8ss and has enfrente a mi, el mayor( huge!!), flurry, +1 shooting, +1 ml, +1 def, critical strike & doesn't punch himself in the teeth every time he attacks. Thats a ton. And if you use stilts to mitigate Franc punching himself once he costs 8 ss and now only has one upgrade slot left. So it costs 9 stones with dirty cheater and stilts for a model that is going to kill himself or die to basically anything that attacks him a few times. Hes good but I dunno it seems like Francois is a little worse. 

Francois is a homing missile, especially with the Iron Skeeter. Take down Mech Rider T1? No problem.

Francisco is more verstatile but has a lot worse damage output.

[lame0]

51 minutes ago, trikk said:

Francois is a homing missile, especially with the Iron Skeeter. Take down Mech Rider T1? No problem.

Francisco is more verstatile but has a lot worse damage output.

Throwing 15 points and my whole hand to kill a def 5, 10 wounds and no armor model that is super high priority seems pretty fair. Both francois and the iron skeeter are left in a terrible location with limited to no support. I mean francois has always been one of the best models to double team and alpha with because of companion. Most importantly though our rider got Cuddled  so count yourself lucky lol.

[Math Mathonwy]

10 hours ago, Razhem said:

by the admission of people on this thread, internal balance on Gremlins is crap since most of the good stuff happen to be reckless models.

Eh, I've just read that Sandeep makes all other Arcanist Masters (maybe barring Marcus) obsolete, Nellie does the same to Guild, and all in all the balance of Malifaux is absolute crap. I mean, you could probably build a similarly short lists of "competitive" models for every Faction were you so inclined. Which is naturally a pretty extreme view. Compared to most other wargames Malifaux's balance is great and unless the players are super evenly matched, taking Moon Shinobis won't cost you the game.

Besides, lame0's list is missing quite a few models which I've seen used in competitive environments by people who did extremely well (Sammy, Raphael, Pere, War Pig, etc).

[Math Mathonwy]

19 hours ago, trikk said:

Yes, but you are not forced to use reckless, are you? This means you use it when it can score you points or you can heal the damage done. But this sounds like "I`m more or less survivable like other 7SS models but I have wounds from reckless" but what it means usually if you let 1 reckless model unoposed the Gremlin player pretty easily can score a lot of VP with just 1 model with no cards required.

You can not use Reckless but then you don't get the benefit from it. Which was my point - people seem to discount that one Wd it causes which is fine when theorizing and always having a Slop Hauler nearby but in actual game that Slop Hauler is in a different place or dies to a lucky Sniper or whatever and then the Wd from Reckless does count. Gremlins look super scary on paper if you count that everything goes their way but it's a different situation on the table. Which incidentally is why I suggested that you try Gremlin for a while.

19 hours ago, trikk said:

I`m not saying thats the reason. But there was an argument that "Gremlins are not broken because they didn`t win any big tournaments" to which I replied that they have the highest tournament avg. I`m not saying this is a reason to cuddle something but its an argument against "Gremlins are totally balanced".

Ah, fair enough in that case, I suppose.

19 hours ago, trikk said:

P.S. I`d like to point out that even if we don`t agree about certain things, I have full respect for your opinion and I try to think about everything that you say

Thank you - the feeling is mutual!  

[Myyrä]

1 hour ago, Math Mathonwy said:

Gremlins look super scary on paper if you count that everything goes their way but it's a different situation on the table. Which incidentally is why I suggested that you try Gremlin for a while.

Do you think I can get anyone to play me if I try Gremlins for a while? ? 

Or was this advice only applicable to Trikk?

[wizuriel]

3 hours ago, Myyrä said:

Do you think I can get anyone to play me if I try Gremlins for a while? ? 

Or was this advice only applicable to Trikk?

Come to Toronto and will bring out my Guild

[Dogmantra]

8 hours ago, Math Mathonwy said:

always having a Slop Hauler nearby but in actual game that Slop Hauler is in a different place or dies to a lucky Sniper or whatever

This is absolutely something that gets overlooked I think when people complain about Gremlin healing. If a Sloppy wants to heal, either they stand still and heal within 3" or go Reckless and heal within 7". But if they go Reckless they probably want to heal themself because being at 4 remaining wounds is way worse than being at 5 remaining wounds (cause of min damage 2 models). They're the #1 limiter on how fast you can move a crew imo, and the number of times I've lost one to a sniper or blasts or whatever is frustrating.

[lame0]

Just now, Dogmantra said:

This is absolutely something that gets overlooked I think when people complain about Gremlin healing. If a Sloppy wants to heal, either they stand still and heal within 3" or go Reckless and heal within 7". But if they go Reckless they probably want to heal themself because being at 4 remaining wounds is way worse than being at 5 remaining wounds (cause of min damage 2 models). They're the #1 limiter on how fast you can move a crew imo, and the number of times I've lost one to a sniper or blasts or whatever is frustrating.

agreed I feel like people talk about our faction like we have this godly amount of op models. I think its just that we have good synergy so if you know which models are most important the machine starts to break down. 

[the tick]

10 hours ago, Math Mathonwy said:

Which incidentally is why I suggested that you try Gremlin for a while.

+1 This.

1 hour ago, Dogmantra said:

This is absolutely something that gets overlooked I think when people complain about Gremlin healing. If a Sloppy wants to heal, either they stand still and heal within 3" or go Reckless and heal within 7". But if they go Reckless they probably want to heal themself because being at 4 remaining wounds is way worse than being at 5 remaining wounds (cause of min damage 2 models). They're the #1 limiter on how fast you can move a crew imo, and the number of times I've lost one to a sniper or blasts or whatever is frustrating.

+1 Also this.

[Myyrä]

6 hours ago, wizuriel said:

Come to Toronto and will bring out my Guild

I'll try to get a conference trip or something. Can't promise I will succeed, though. 

[Bazlord_Prime]

15 hours ago, Math Mathonwy said:

You can not use Reckless but then you don't get the benefit from it. Which was my point - people seem to discount that one Wd it causes which is fine when theorizing and always having a Slop Hauler nearby but in actual game that Slop Hauler is in a different place or dies to a lucky Sniper or whatever and then the Wd from Reckless does count. Gremlins look super scary on paper if you count that everything goes their way but it's a different situation on the table. Which incidentally is why I suggested that you try Gremlin for a while.

Exactly. It seems to be a really common fault in Theory-faux, to not think 4-dimensionally, or even in 3D. And you hear it all the time even on Schemes & Stones - talking about the Slop Hauler just magically being in the right place all the time to heal everyone for the entire length of the game?

Nope. They're slow as hell. And in one doubles game, my partner had 2 of them - our opponents had 2 Freikorp Trappers and head-shotted both Haulers Turn 1. On Corner Deployment. That's how you do it 

People also talk about Lenny's buffing auras, as if he's somehow magically keeping up with the rest of the crew and everyone's within 3" of him. He's Walk 4"! Which is great if you're all bunched up in the middle (Brewmaster sometimes, or Ulix).

The Drunk & Reckless Bayou Gremlins can't be running off scoring Schemes with their 3 AP and have Lenny/Slop Hauler/Lightning Bug right next to them to prevent/heal that damage. Not unless you also invest in infrastructure like Old Major/Gracie + Saddle (10-11ss). 

[Bazlord_Prime]

On 24/07/2017 at 0:48 AM, trikk said:

 pol.malifaux-rankings.com

usa.malifaux-rankings.com

malifaux-rankings.com (UK)

Thanks for those links, @trikk

So, is your argument about the tournament dominance of Gremlins based on the information in the "Factions" tab? The table with Position - Faction - Average - Score?

That's the only place I can see that Gremlins as a faction have some higher percentage than the other factions.

[Adran]

On 23/07/2017 at 11:53 AM, trikk said:

We just had a discussion that the low Wound count isn`t really low on the top picked models and that Gremlins don`t have as little defensive tech as some people suggest, didn`t we?

 

Well I said it was lower you said it wasn't. Unless I ought to just believe you becasue you said it,  it doesn't count as proof I was wrong. These statements are real bugbears of mine so I set out to check.  Doing a quick check this morning, by looking through my faction cards, so its not a complete record, I do have all arsenal decks, and several things from wave 3/4, but not everything. (I do own Zipp and parker, but not reva or Titania)

I also only looked at 4 of the factions, because I ran out of time, but tried to pick ones I had thought were lower (I feel arcanists have tones of armour, and guild has a lot of armour, defensive tech and hard to wound. )

My check looked for anything I would argue was a defensive ability, so armour, healing, you hurt me and bad stuff happens to you, you hit me and I run away, and so on. 

Reseerrs 98 abilities

Outcast 73 abilities

Neverborn 84 abiliities

Gremlins 63 abilities

Certainly not proof I was right, I can't tell you how many models I looked at. I did include slop haulers healing and lightening bugs healing, but I didn't check every card for heals other models actions. So in some ways you could see me as being biased in favour of your view.  I can't tell you how many cards for each faction I looked at. This also doesn't judge the quality of the ability (I clumped Armour with bullet proof and so forth)

TLDR

Well what do you know, gremlins do have fewer defensive abilities than several of the factions. It might even be the lowest number.

 

 

 

 

[trikk]

As a faction you might be right. But if we discount thibgs that rarely or never see competetive play I don't think it would be the same. 

Somer list I played against at the ITC:

Slop Hauler (heal and defensive trigger)

Somer (defensive trigger, df6, wp6)

3 Bayous (defensive trigger, df5, wp4)

LB (blast resistant, heal, df5, wp5)

Merris (blocking blasts, df6)

Burt (HtK, Slippery, Df trigger, df5, wp7)

Skeeters (df7, wp4)

Fingers (heal, df trigger, df6, wp6)

 

Or maybe a Wing list with the basics:

Wong (Armor, Counterspell, df5, wp6, defrnsive trigger)

Tavish (df6, regen from Glowy, heal frim marker eating)

Swinecursed (regen, heal, df6)

Burt (as above)

 

I agree that gremlins overall might have lower defensive tech than others but the things that get played really don't.

 

@Bazlord_Prime

Yes. The Avg is the highest in all 3 regions. Position is linked to score. Score is the sum of tournament points in a given ranking.

[Adran]

Sommer list 14 abilities (If you count bayou 2 cards, its 19)

Lets see first list I took in  Spring showdown from my report (first one I reached where I put a list in the battle reports)

Marcus (Damage upgrade)(Arcane) (Df trigger )

Jackolope (healing)

Shuistarya Guard (hard to kill, replaces card cheated on df)

War Wabbit (healing trigger, eat my fill)

Luther the Pascha Hare  (well rehersed) (eat my fill, hard to wound, last number)

Boris the circus bear (Impossible to wound, hard to kill, bearskin armour  Healing trigger, Bonus damage when hurt)

Moleman (Armour, def trigger, df pump)

Hoarcat pride (Manipulative, eat your fill. small target)

 

Thats 20 defensive abilities despite me having 8 models to your 11.  You can certainly argue that its not a normal list,  but its one I picked for an event where I went unbeaten complelty outside this discussion. 

[Bazlord_Prime]

2 hours ago, Adran said:

These statements are real bugbears of mine so I set out to check.  Doing a quick check this morning, by looking through my faction cards...

My man!  I also have a tendency to go away and do silly amounts of work on data gathering in order to bring objectivity to a discussion, so I appreciate your efforts in going through all those cards.  

[Gargantuan]

2 hours ago, trikk said:

 

Somer list I played against at the ITC:

Slop Hauler (heal and defensive trigger) A model specifically taken for it's healing ability has a heal and a defensive trigger that require a very valuable suit

Somer (defensive trigger, df6, wp6) A good defensive trigger that require a very valuable suit

3 Bayous (defensive trigger, df5, wp4) Bad stats and a defensive trigger that require a very valuable suit

LB (blast resistant, heal, df5, wp5) Blast resistance is very rarely relevant and the heal is a lot less effective after turn 1

Merris (blocking blasts, df6) Rarely relevant

Burt (HtK, Slippery, Df trigger, df5, wp7) Burt's very good but I wouldn't call him hard to remove, but he's one of the tougher gremlins.

Skeeters (df7, wp4) So? Above average defense and below average willpower and 3 wounds. 

Fingers (heal, df trigger, df6, wp6) He's a very expensive scheme runner and scheme denier that has a defensive trigger that require a very valuable suit

 

Red text is me.

I played in a tournament two days ago and every model I used except the zombie chihuahua had defensive abilities. Hard to wound pretty much everywhere, a little incorporeal here and there. And also some Manipulative and horror. 

Every opponent I met had a lot of models with defensive abilities.