Is the pigapult mandatory?

[Raresterror]

Hello all. I'm new to malifaux and plan on running gremlins. My question is as the title suggests. Is the pigapult and consequently stuffed pigs mandatory? I've been watching some battle reports online, and talking with some people at my game store who play against gremlins and I get the feeling that it's too powerful of a tool to not bring. Is this true? Thank you in advance.

[DXXXVIII]

There are a few models in each faction which are considered OP and the Pigapult is one of them but just as you dont see H. Langston or Nekima every game you dont need the Pigapult. Its just very good if the right schemes ask for it
But yes, having one and not needing it is still better than needing one and not having it

[Ludvig]

It doesn't fit in every good gremlin list since it is a signifant investment of ss that doesn't always pay off.

It is good for a lot of stuff though beware that when it works a little too well it is one of the more extreme buzzkills for your opponent so overusing it can lead to trouble finding games.

[codingCaptor]

By no means is a pigapult neccessary.

The Pigapult is a good model, particularly in a few specific strategies or schemes.   However, it has some downsides.

The main problem is, if you're using stuffed piglets as ammo, you're going to be firing at Shoot 5 and be unable to cheat your damage flips. (This is due to an ability on the stuffed piglets card.  Took me weeks to realize how that interaction worked and why the pigapult was balanced.)  Sure, you have a 24 inch range that ignores cover and line of sight.   But any def 6 units (like masters) are going to avoid the damage you're trying to throw their way.   An AV 5 unit, ESPECIALLY one that costs 8 stones plus 2 stones per turn you plan on shooting, is going to be very hit or miss (literally)    There will be games where the cards all come up your way, at which point the pigapult is insanely effective and feels SUPER overpowered.    The thing is, statistically, those games are going to happen a lot less often than the games in which you activate the pigapult, fire off 3-4 shots in an attempt to delete something off the board, and MAYBE hit one thing for 3 damage.

Now, if your buddies are running crews with DF 4 models, that's a different story, and the pigapult is going to perform well there, especially if your opponent is relying on things like hard to wound.  Min damage 3 models loves hard to wound tanks.    But something with armor 2 like Gracie or Azamu is going to be a poor pigapult target.

But while DF 5 is the average, DF 6 is what most people will bring, as they're trying to be above average.

So yea, it's a good model, it's repositioning capabilities are strong, but its damage capabilities are over blown, making it not worth the points in the majority of games you play with it.

[Dogmantra]

Imo the pigapult is only op or even really worth considering for Reconnoiter ot Interference alongside either Som'er or Ulix summoning. Then the combination of out activation provided by stuffed piglets and the 24" place from the pigapult gives you the last activation to be able to plonk 3 models exactly where you need them to score and deny points

 Stuffies as ammo are super overrated imo, I would much rather use piglets when combined with a summoner so they cost much less to use and leave you on Sh6. But overall I think if you're reduced to shooting frequently with the pult you probably would have done just as well with someone like McTavish instead.

McTavish has the same Sh and damage track as a non-stuffed Bacon Barrage and can also get 3 attacks per turn. He ignores basically everything that the pigapult does except LoS and he has a pretty long range plus the benefit of not randomising, and I just can't think of any model that contributes so much to a crew that I need to spend 10 stones plus 2-4 a turn solely on killing it that also manages to remain totally out of Line of Sight and range of all my other models that is also killable while being focused by just one model with either a Sh5 or min damage 2. Rasputina maybe.

[PositronMike]

2 hours ago, Dogmantra said:

Imo the pigapult is only op or even really worth considering for Reconnoiter ot Interference alongside either Som'er or Ulix summoning. Then the combination of out activation provided by stuffed piglets and the 24" place from the pigapult gives you the last activation to be able to plonk 3 models exactly where you need them to score and deny points

The other good start for the pigapult is Stake a Claim with a Som'er summoning list. Being able to fire the 3 newly summoned Bayous up field ready to drop 3 claim markers turn 2 can make it tough for your opponent to counter.

The other good use I have found with the pigapult is when you to play defensively as it can force your opponent to come to you and then you can counter with models like Mancha, Gracie, Franc, Lenny, etc. and allow you to eliminate your opponents main threat. This is typically how I would play Ophelia and it would cause some tough decisions for opponents however it does depend on the terrain as well as strat and scheme choice.

[Dogmantra]

7 minutes ago, PositronMike said:

The other good start for the pigapult is Stake a Claim with a Som'er summoning list. Being able to fire the 3 newly summoned Bayous up field ready to drop 3 claim markers turn 2 can make it tough for your opponent to counter.

Hoo boy yeah that's a great tactic. Stake a Claim so rarely comes up (especially since most people I know tend to play exclusively GG strats -- imo a sad loss of squatter's rights and steaky clam) that I haven't really had a chance to try that idea out. Especially now Roosters aren't able to drop a claim marker every turn unless you can somehow always give them Fast, it seems like that might well be the way to go.

[Raresterror]

Thank you everyone for the replies. This has made me feel better about not having that model lol.

[Goopy]

Yeah, I barely even use it and do well most games. I consider it more of a trap for good play. You can take it in a couple of scheme pools and it will seem OP, and people will hate getting shot by it, but once people figure it out, it will probably hurt you more. Its a big SS sink and can be ineffective unless you plan your whole strat around it. Very overrated model. 

[Four_N_Six]

I own the model. I think I've used it twice. I have ideas for it, just never seem to want to try

[cfrag]

I'll reinforce what most people said. Even though I love the model look (as can be seen by my forum pic :D), I do not use it regularly. The reason? To play it effectively you end up playing way too much around it. 8SS for the pigapult itself + 6-12 SS for ammo for 3 turns if you plan on shooting, leaving 2 turns for placing ht1 minions. Sure, you can summon ammo, but then you will need either a) a specific master or b ) Taxidermists and some sacrificial model like a bayou gremlin. 

So, for a) you are limited to ulix and pigs, which means you must be bringing big pigs with you for summoning and husbandry upgrade + dirty cheater. So, 8SS + 4 for upgrades + 9-10 for a big pig +5 for slop hauler. You're already at 30SS and this is just barely working. Also, you are limited to a style of play that might not suit what you intend.

Option b ) is not really an option because it's actually more expensive than hiring the stuffed and/or regular piglets. You could get more mileage using somer's summon.

 

My bottom line here is: You will end up adapting way more than half your crew to fit this playstyle, and that means you must rely on the pigapult for the whole match. And I don't like to have my matches rely on a single model (it has gone wrong way more times than I care to admit). 

[Dogmantra]

2 hours ago, cfrag said:

 Sure, you can summon ammo, but then you will need either a) a specific master or b ) Taxidermists and some sacrificial model like a bayou gremlin.

You've missed the lowest investment which is Lenny with I'll Love and Pet It, shooting the pigapult, getting the tome trigger and hitting min damage to summon a piglet. However there are several ways it can go wrong (not having a 7+, managing to hit moderate, severe or BJ on your s) and it's still 10 stones. I do agree with you that it's generally too expensive to summon for the pult though, even with Lenny, especially given how unreliable he can be.

[codingCaptor]

1 minute ago, Dogmantra said:

You've missed the lowest investment which is Lenny with I'll Love and Pet It, shooting the pigapult, getting the tome trigger and hitting min damage to summon a piglet. However there are several ways it can go wrong (not having a 7+, managing to hit moderate, severe or BJ on your s) and it's still 10 stones. I do agree with you that it's generally too expensive to summon for the pult though, even with Lenny, especially given how unreliable he can be.

First, there are only 8 cards (including red joker) that can get that trigger off and hit the TN.  That's 15% of the deck.   In a hand of 6 cards from a fresh deck, you have an approximate 60% chance of drawing at least one of those cards.

Assuming you relent (Which you probably should)   you'll be flipping 3 cards.   The chance of flipping a non-weak card out of a full deck is 63%    So the chances of flipping 3 non-weak cards is around 25%, making the chances of flipping weak damage around 75%.      So you need a 60% chance followed by a 75% Chance, giving us a 45% chance of being able to successfully summon a piglet on any given turn.

Now, this is assuming a full deck with replacement, and I didn't account for the black joker, so these are not 100% correct numbers, and the percentages will vary wildly throughout the turn as your deck approaches depleatedness.    But that's a rough ballpark for trying to summon with Lenny.  It is very unreliable.

[cfrag]

1 minute ago, codingCaptor said:

First, there are only 8 cards (including red joker) that can get that trigger off and hit the TN.  That's 15% of the deck.   In a hand of 6 cards from a fresh deck, you have an approximate 60% chance of drawing at least one of those cards.

Assuming you relent (Which you probably should)   you'll be flipping 3 cards.   The chance of flipping a non-weak card out of a full deck is 63%    So the chances of flipping 3 non-weak cards is around 25%, making the chances of flipping weak damage around 75%.      So you need a 60% chance followed by a 75% Chance, giving us a 45% chance of being able to successfully summon a piglet on any given turn.

Now, this is assuming a full deck with replacement, and I didn't account for the black joker, so these are not 100% correct numbers, and the percentages will vary wildly throughout the turn as your deck approaches depleatedness.    But that's a rough ballpark for trying to summon with Lenny.  It is very unreliable.

CodingCaptor wrote it better than I ever would.

My table experience with Lenny and pigapult has been so unreliable I haven't even considered it a fair option.

I actually stopped using Lenny at all, but that is a whole other topic.

[Dogmantra]

23 minutes ago, codingCaptor said:

It is very unreliable.

You'll note that I said so at the end of my post I was just pointing out there is a cheaper option (albeit an unreliable one). It's never been particularly useful when I used it.

I suppose the actual lowest investment for summoning would be some sort of Som'er dealie with Bayou Gremlins where you have them Dumb Luck to get as much use out of them, then kill them to turn em into piglets. But that's even more convoluted than Lenny, and you might as well be spending Som'er's AP to shoot rather than create ammo.

21 minutes ago, cfrag said:

I actually stopped using Lenny at all, but that is a whole other topic.

Me too mostly. I think he's way too easy to kill to rely on. He can be very useful but if your opponent notices that, they can basically delete him within a turn.

[EpicWaffle]

I'll say mine, even tho you guys explained all very well  I used to hate the pigapult in my earlie days of playing malifaux, because it drained so many resources out of my crew (ss and cards wise) to work. Preferring personally Stuffed as ammo (lower investment for higher dmgs), I generally bring 3 stuffed with it, making it 14ss of investment, which could had easly been 2 taxidermist/burt/frank et.c or 4 bayou gremlins just to make a couple of examples. Lately, I worked around it to try to understand where is worth and were's not to bring the pigapult, cause if well used it's quite potent, so here's my "notes" about it:

AGAINST WHICH CREW:

Good: Resser, Neverborn, Gremlin

Keeping in mind this is very on the "general level" (for example against a kirai crew, the pult is not optimal), these are the crews where you'll find most of the models on Df5, whith less armor/resistences (again, incorporeal is a thing in both neverborns and ressers), making it easier to shoot with it and reliably hit. Keep in mind tho that a gremlin player could bring the pigapult too in a mirror. Another factor to consider is that most of Resser models, and a lot of Neverborn ones, use Hard/Impossible to would as protection on big models/masters (teddy, archie,Nicodem etc) because of their low df value! So, since with stuffed you don't really care abot malus to the damage flip (since you can't cheat it), they're great target to hit, in order to soften down their generally high df value (a teddy at 6hp turn 2 is way easier to handle).

Bad: Outcasts, Arcanists, Ten Thunder, Guild

Generally models have either High DF values (especially guild and tt) or armor to soften down the damages (arcanists and outcasts), if not both. So at that point it doesn't mean that you need to rounce using it (scheme runners are always a good target for the pult), but you'll need to take in count that it won't be as effective. Also, there are a lot of models that can easly mess with it (raptors and Perdita to annoverate a couple), so definetly not an autoinclude, cause people are gonna bring countermesures to it. There are some exceptions tho, where for example against levi it can be quite good, cause you can threat his waifs at a great distance, or against ramos you can force him to play safe if he doen't want to get BACONED everyturn.

STRATEEGIES:

here the deal is easier: reconnoiter, interference in the pool? take it, it's gonna be painfully annoying for your opponent to shoot 3 models in a quarter as last activation (tho it's good with summoners like Somer and Ulix as @Dogmantra said). Others? value the scheme pull and see if it can accomplish you something ( for example against a new player is gona make him play very conservatly and cautios, tho you're gonna end up as quite a ''villain'' if it works really well, so I would recommend to do so in tournaments, not in casual games) having a model with 24'', no LoS threat range with model-reposition potentials.

 

Nothing ground breaking, but it's how i percive the model  

[cfrag]

29 minutes ago, Dogmantra said:

You'll note that I said so at the end of my post I was just pointing out there is a cheaper option (albeit an unreliable one). It's never been particularly useful when I used it.

I suppose the actual lowest investment for summoning would be some sort of Som'er dealie with Bayou Gremlins where you have them Dumb Luck to get as much use out of them, then kill them to turn em into piglets. But that's even more convoluted than Lenny, and you might as well be spending Som'er's AP to shoot rather than create ammo.

Me too mostly. I think he's way too easy to kill to rely on. He can be very useful but if your opponent notices that, they can basically delete him within a turn.

Sorry @Dogmantra, I should have mentioned your post as I realized we were all making the same point, although you rightfully added Lenny as an extra option that we missed. Its just that @codingCaptor math resonated so much with my table experience that I had to mention it

 

6 minutes ago, EpicWaffle said:

I'll say mine, even tho you guys explained all very well  I used to hate the pigapult in my earlie days of playing malifaux, because it drained so many resources out of my crew (ss and cards wise) to work. Preferring personally Stuffed as ammo (lower investment for higher dmgs), I generally bring 3 stuffed with it, making it 14ss of investment, which could had easly been 2 taxidermist/burt/frank et.c or 4 bayou gremlins just to make a couple of examples. Lately, I worked around it to try to understand where is worth and were's not to bring the pigapult, cause if well used it's quite potent, so here's my "notes" about it:

AGAINST WHICH CREW:

Good: Resser, Neverborn, Gremlin

Keeping in mind this is very on the "general level" (for example against a kirai crew, the pult is not optimal), these are the crews where you'll find most of the models on Df5, whith less armor/resistences (again, incorporeal is a thing in both neverborns and ressers), making it easier to shoot with it and reliably hit. Keep in mind tho that a gremlin player could bring the pigapult too in a mirror. Another factor to consider is that most of Resser models, and a lot of Neverborn ones, use Hard/Impossible to would as protection on big models/masters (teddy, archie,Nicodem etc) because of their low df value! So, since with stuffed you don't really care abot malus to the damage flip (since you can't cheat it), they're great target to hit, in order to soften down their generally high df value (a teddy at 6hp turn 2 is way easier to handle).

Bad: Outcasts, Arcanists, Ten Thunder, Guild

Generally models have either High DF values (especially guild and tt) or armor to soften down the damages (arcanists and outcasts), if not both. So at that point it doesn't mean that you need to rounce using it (scheme runners are always a good target for the pult), but you'll need to take in count that it won't be as effective. Also, there are a lot of models that can easly mess with it (raptors and Perdita to annoverate a couple), so definetly not an autoinclude, cause people are gonna bring countermesures to it. There are some exceptions tho, where for example against levi it can be quite good, cause you can threat his waifs at a great distance, or against ramos you can force him to play safe if he doen't want to get BACONED everyturn.

STRATEEGIES:

here the deal is easier: reconnoiter, interference in the pool? take it, it's gonna be painfully annoying for your opponent to shoot 3 models in a quarter as last activation (tho it's good with summoners like Somer and Ulix as @Dogmantra said). Others? value the scheme pull and see if it can accomplish you something ( for example against a new player is gona make him play very conservatly and cautios, tho you're gonna end up as quite a ''villain'' if it works really well, so I would recommend to do so in tournaments, not in casual games) having a model with 24'', no LoS threat range with model-reposition potentials.

 

Nothing ground breaking, but it's how i percive the model  

I believe that is the most balanced way to use it. As a mix of shooting and positioning in order to be the most pain in the ass possible for the opponent. Tossing a burt jebsen accross the board is quite a fun thing to do!

You can do the same with francois, but for that you must leave Stilts behind (it makes frank ht2) and I'm not that confident in franks capacity to survive without it, but the threat is there!

Overall, it is a great deterrent to the opponent, but not necessariliy for the damage potential

[Math Mathonwy]

1 hour ago, codingCaptor said:

First, there are only 8 cards (including red joker) that can get that trigger off and hit the TN.  That's 15% of the deck.   In a hand of 6 cards from a fresh deck, you have an approximate 60% chance of drawing at least one of those cards.

Assuming you relent (Which you probably should)   you'll be flipping 3 cards.   The chance of flipping a non-weak card out of a full deck is 63%    So the chances of flipping 3 non-weak cards is around 25%, making the chances of flipping weak damage around 75%.      So you need a 60% chance followed by a 75% Chance, giving us a 45% chance of being able to successfully summon a piglet on any given turn.

Now, this is assuming a full deck with replacement, and I didn't account for the black joker, so these are not 100% correct numbers, and the percentages will vary wildly throughout the turn as your deck approaches depleatedness.    But that's a rough ballpark for trying to summon with Lenny.  It is very unreliable.

Note that you're flipping for Lenny so might get a Tome high enough there (you don't need to cheat 100% of the time) plus you might have some card draw available (from spending an SS at the very least but Gremlins have quite a few different methods as well and those are always useful so don't add up to the cost of the Pult as such). So somewhat better than 45% (though still not claiming reliability, mind).

[Adran]

I know that forcing Lenny in a Sommer list is again reducing the use of it, but it not that hard for Sommer to add tomes to Lenny on a turn, allowing him a decent chance to get 2 pigs in that turn. 

 

[Frollo the Wordbearer]

I don't own Pigapult but played Lenny and his upgrade for a while within a Somer summon list and I find him not so unreliable with tomes baked in. Of course it will not happen every turn (as you need a tome and a couple of 7 and in critical moments you'll need masks and rams with Do it like this!), but summoning 3 models in a game (plus the gremlins sumoned by somer) is quite useful.

Imho.

[Omenbringer]

I would agree with the others that it is definitely not necessary or even all that useful in most builds. As for overpowered...I have rarely found it that dominating against most of my opponents, particularly those that have faced it more than once or have mobile crews. If they can weather the storm it isn't difficult to take out in a single turn (and often a single activation if you catch it between firing and healing). It is a huge points investment (to keep it at max efficiency you really need a Slop Hauler babysitter and Lenny with his upgrade  to fuel it turn after turn (hiring piglets to feed it is a losing proposition most times), sparks is also often considered but I don't find him worth his points in general) that rarely pays off in the damage department, most find it more useful for flinging models up the field (I am not one of them since I think we have better, cheaper, and more efficient methods of doing that).

I also am not a fan of Stuffed Piglets for feeding it, they come with too many downsides to make them consistently worth using for ammo. I prefer the vanilla Piglet that can do more for the Pigapult in terms of movement assistance.

It is a fun model though and worth fielding just for the fun of it.

[Ludvig]

13 hours ago, Omenbringer said:

 I also am not a fan of Stuffed Piglets for feeding it, they come with too many downsides to make them consistently worth using for ammo. I prefer the vanilla Piglet that can do more for the Pigapult in terms of movement assistance.

Just out of curiousity, too many downsides onstuffed piglets? They do lower it's sh but you get two stuffed for lesd than the price of a single piglet and it does more damage if you sac a stuffed than a regular pig. You can't cheat damage but you will be at a negative most of the time either way so cheating will likely not be an option?

[cfrag]

I don't think it's only the damage that you can't cheat, but also the attack. So it comes down to luck and lack of cards on your opponent's hand. It is still a decent way to drain cards from your opponent, but if you really want something dead, it is not reliable at all.

 

Although I can tell you: having sparks pop fast on pigapult for 4 attacks instead of 3 per turn is pretty fun, with the added bonus of being able to throw him to disrupt enemy buffing shenanigans

[Ludvig]

47 minutes ago, cfrag said:

I don't think it's only the damage that you can't cheat, but also the attack. So it comes down to luck and lack of cards on your opponent's hand. It is still a decent way to drain cards from your opponent, but if you really want something dead, it is not reliable at all.

It's just damage, you can still cheat attacks so it's decently reliable for anything df 5 or less.

[codingCaptor]

Favorite dumb list of dumbness:

• Zoraida
• Pigapult
• Stuffed PIglet x6
• Papa Loco
• Scion of the Black Blood
• Sparks
• Bayou Gremlin

 

Papa activates first, gives the pigapult  to damage.    Sparks activates next, giving the pigapult Fast and giving something packed explosives if there's an enemy nearby.   Pigapult activates reckless (for one damage)  Bacon loads (heal, gain concussed)  Ditches 2 card to remove a condition (From scion of black blood)

 

You now have a shoot 6 3/5/7 damage model with  to damage and 4 AP.  With the potential to be hitting a sparks target for an extra .    Delete whatever you want from the board.

Meanwhile, Zoraida and the Bayou Gremlin wander around the board earning VP.