Disengagement questions

[Math Mathonwy]

OK, it seems that I have understood disengagement a bit wrong but now that I've read the rulebook on it a bit closer, I got two new questions.

 

1) Can you move within engagement range and then move out during one activation without incurring disengagement strikes? If not, do you need to declare this intent before moving even though you weren't in engagement range at the start of the activation? And if you do declare and win the duel, are you then obliged to move into and out of engagement range of the enemy model?

 

2) Engagement works both ways - does that mean that if you have a model with engagement range of 3" against a model with range 1" and are 2" apart, you can't charge some other model?

[Mako]

1) if you declare a move while engaged you incur a disengaging strike, so if you move in, stop, then move out as a separate AP then yes, that second AP gets a disengaging strike. If you walk into, through and out of engagement range in a single AP then no, you didn't declare a move while engaged so no strike.

 

2) You can't charge as you're engaged, but if you walk to disengage they can't actually make a strike as they have no weapons of the right type (claw symbol if I remember correctly) that have sufficient range to make the strike.

[HalcyonSeraph]

It is worth noting that if you CAN charge while engaged (with a power or something), you don't suffer disengaging strikes anyway because those are only triggered by Walk actions.

[Fenton Crack]

Is there a consensus regarding "orbiting" a model without leaving engagement ? It is my reading of the rules, as well as others I have seen in posts regarding Barbaros, for example, setting up his pushing of a model into Tots for a Pounce, by moving around a model, but staying engaged (orbiting), then pushing the the model into the Tots, that prior to the "orbit" were behind Barbaros.

Page 44 of the Rulebook (under Disengaging) states "If a model wants to leave an enemy model's engagement range with a Walk Action......", thus if you are declaring a walk action that does not at any point leave the engagement, no Disengaging Strike takes place if I'm understanding it correctly?

Even aside from Barbaros moving around, but not out of engagement, there are other instances where a move is useful in engagement range, for instance a Steam Arachnid in engagement, but not in base to base for the Latch On negative Df modifier, etc.

Is this how everyone is playing the rule?

[Ausplosions]

If you aren't planning on leaving an engagement range, then there is no disengaging strike.

[Math Mathonwy]

Thank you for the answers - much appreciated! A comment, though.

 

1) if you declare a move while engaged you incur a disengaging strike, so if you move in, stop, then move out as a separate AP then yes, that second AP gets a disengaging strike. If you walk into, through and out of engagement range in a single AP then no, you didn't declare a move while engaged so no strike.

 

That last part isn't RAW, though. In the book it says that "models are engaged if either is within the engagement range of the other". It doesn't say that you need to end an action within engagement range to become engaged, just that they need to be within range. Then, disengaging doesn't say that you need to start within engagement range, it says that if you wish to leave engagement range with a Walk action, then disengagement happens.

 

Therefore, RAW, I think that if you walk into, through and out of engagement range in a single AP you would need to declare this intent at the beginning of your activation. But maybe this is against RAI?

[Ausplosions]

Thank you for the answers - much appreciated! A comment, though.

That last part isn't RAW, though. In the book it says that "models are engaged if either is within the engagement range of the other". It doesn't say that you need to end an action within engagement range to become engaged, just that they need to be within range. Then, disengaging doesn't say that you need to start within engagement range, it says that if you wish to leave engagement range with a Walk action, then disengagement happens.

Therefore, RAW, I think that if you walk into, through and out of engagement range in a single AP you would need to declare this intent at the beginning of your activation. But maybe this is against RAI?

. When you declare your Walk Action, that is when you declare that you are intending to leave an engagement range. And that is when the strike is made. So if your opponent tries to make the strike, they aren't in range anyway.

[Math Mathonwy]

. When you declare your Walk Action, that is when you declare that you are intending to leave an engagement range. And that is when the strike is made. So if your opponent tries to make the strike, they aren't in range anyway.

Ah, good point! It makes the situation kinda academic (in that, RAW, you would need to declare, but it wouldn't affect anything ever, so you really shouldn't). Thanks!

[Ikvar]

I had no idea about this, me and the rest of the henchmen in my area have always played it as you have to make a disengaging strike if you move out of a characters engagement range in any way.

 

So if I understand you guys correctly, you only have to make a disengaging strike if you declare a move action within the enemies engagement range. So lets say that you have a character with a move of 5, and the enemie within 6- you want to use both AP to move, but after you have used the first AP you are now within the enemies engagement range. Would you then have to do a disengaging strike, or can you just move 5 more as you have already declared that you want to move the full 10inches and use both AP on it?

[Adran]

Each of those is a (1) walk action, so you would complete 1 before starting the next. For speed you can measure the double walk distance, but strictly the model stops in the middle and then starts again. If that is likely to cause any issues you need to do them (such as disengagign strikes, Horror duels and Terrain features).

[Ausplosions]

I had no idea about this, me and the rest of the henchmen in my area have always played it as you have to make a disengaging strike if you move out of a characters engagement range in any way.

So if I understand you guys correctly, you only have to make a disengaging strike if you declare a move action within the enemies engagement range. So lets say that you have a character with a move of 5, and the enemie within 6- you want to use both AP to move, but after you have used the first AP you are now within the enemies engagement range. Would you then have to do a disengaging strike, or can you just move 5 more as you have already declared that you want to move the full 10inches and use both AP on it?

You are declaring 2 separate actions. So yes, you will suffer a disengaging strike.

[Dracomax]

Honestly, as counter-intuitive as it sounds, Ausplosions is right. (no, I meant  the no disengaging strike when passing through engagement is counterintuitive, not the other thing.) And it makes sense from a game simplification POV.

 

If you have to stop every move near other models, and measure out where the engagement range is, movement around the enemy becomes a series of measurements and checks, or an excruciating exercise in pedantant zig-zaggery("i was.0125 Inches out of your engagement zone, so no check!") that, while manageable, does very little for the actual tactics, yet makes the game slower and less fun. So from a design POV, restricting it to only the start of a walk makes perfect sense, even if we might, for fluff reasons, have an issue with it.

[Seb3110]

Ok, additional question: Can you declare a charge that will move through a models engagement range? You do not stop in the engagement range, but run straight through and out the other side.

[Dracomax]

As long as you are not engaged when declaring the charge, have LOS to the target, and can make the charge in a straight Line and still attack, you can charge.

[indigonegative]

OK just to clarify because only one guy at my FLGS seemed to get this (and it wasn't me):

1. you can walk or charge through engagement zone with no penalty so long as you aren't within the opposing model's engagement range when you declare the action, even if that model was within your engagement range

2. you can move within an engagement so long as you won't leave

3. if an opposing model charges you and has a 3 inch engagement range he can stop up to 3 inches away and still strike you and you are still engaged. however you aren't limiting his movement due to engagement and you can't hit back unless he is within your engagement range. if Executioner stops 3 inches from a fire gamin the gamin has to take a walk before using its claws. it can't charge because its engaged though so it will only get one swipe.

[dgraz]

1. Correct with the caveat that you can't declare a charge when engaged....even if you have a longer engagement range than the enemy and outside of theirs, engagement works both ways.

 

2. Correct.......however I think it's important to point out......STOP USING THE WORD 'MOVE'.......moving and walking are both game terms and do not mean the same thing..........a WALK action is the only thing that incurs a disengaging strike.....whereas there are multiple other things that are 'moves' but don't incur a disengaging strike.

 

3. Correct.....except the Executioner's movement is limited in that he cannot declare Charges from there....but yes, he could just 'Walk' away....whereas the Gamin could not.

[indigonegative]

thanks. I was thinking Executioner could still charge if the opposing model couldn't reach him but that would allow him to charge the Gamin and hit twice or something else goofy like charging anew target.

[Tuttleboy]

Nope. You can't declare a charge with an engaged model unless that model has a special rule that allows it. The executioner is engaged.

[spears]

Does the ignore models part of Misaki's diving charge allow her to charge whilst engaged? 

[Ausplosions]

No.

[spears]

Thanks, one more question I have seen a few people mention using armour of December to push Rasputina out of combat. Dont the following Faqs mean this would cause a disengaging strike though?

Q. What counts as "moving" a model?

A .Anything that applies a Movement Effect to the model. Eg. a Push, Walk or Charge.

 

Q. Do I get a Disengaging Strike when a model leaves my Melee Range due to a Placement Effect?

A. No, you only get Disengaging Strikes in response to Movement Effects

[zFiend]

Hm.. That would actually indicate that only an ability that specifies "place" would not instigate a disengaging strike. We have always played it so that the model itself must declare a walk action to instigate the strike.

[Dracomax]

Doesn't it specify that disengaging only effects the walk action in the part where it defines disengaging? I would need to look at the book to be sure, but I could have sworn it specified walk actions.

[zFiend]

Doesn't it specify that disengaging only effects the walk action in the part where it defines disengaging? I would need to look at the book to be sure, but I could have sworn it specified walk actions.

 

Somehow that is my understanding as well. But if that's from the FAQ it gives a bit ambivalent info. 

[rover1013]

Thanks, one more question I have seen a few people mention using armour of December to push Rasputina out of combat. Dont the following Faqs mean this would cause a disengaging strike though?

Q. What counts as "moving" a model?

A .Anything that applies a Movement Effect to the model. Eg. a Push, Walk or Charge.

 

Q. Do I get a Disengaging Strike when a model leaves my Melee Range due to a Placement Effect?

A. No, you only get Disengaging Strikes in response to Movement Effects

 

This text is from the 1.5 FAQ.  It is found nowhere in the 2E FAQ.

 

The latest M2E FAQ can be found here: http://wyrd-games.net/community/files/file/21-malifaux-2e-faq-errata/

 

The M2E rulebook does in fact explicitly specify walk actions in regards to disengaging strikes.

[spears]

Aha, fooled by google. Thanks all.