Hoffman Power Loop clarification

[Tuttleboy]

Originally posted in Guild forums:

Power loop says "At the start of a duel, this model may use the printed numerical DF, WP, CA, SH, or ML (ignoring suits) from another friendly model with Power Lopp instead of it's own."

 

So my question would be- if I power loop in something with a high casting, and use it's printed casting... Does that mean I get to use his casting with no suits at all? Or do I get to use his casting with my inherent suit? 

I think that Power Loop lets Hoffman, or another PL use the printed number from another friendly model and keep the suit on his own card. For example if he Power Loops with Guardian he can borrow the Df from Guardian and be at Df 6 :tomes.

[HalcyonSeraph]

I agree. If you strip out the extranous details in that sentence, you are using another models printed numerical stat in place of Hoffmans. It doesn't affect suits at all, by my reading, which means Hoffman can still use his own. 

[Tuttleboy]

Looking at it a bit more I think it's worded to stop those in his crew with the Grinding Halt trigger from getting it automatically by taking the printed :tomes from Hoff.

[HalcyonSeraph]

And also as futureproofing. If it transferred suits they would have to basically never give suits on those stats to any Guild or Arcanist construct, becuase they could theoretically  give that to any other Guild or Arcanist construct and cause issues. 

 

Like, say, giving the Rail Golem a free tome on Ca and enabling super-Locomotions. 

[The Godlyness]

I disagree. You use the Numeric value. you get what ever suits you flip/ burn SS for.

 

"At the start of a duel, this model may use the printed numerical DF, WP, CA, SH, or ML (ignoring suits) from another friendly model with Power Loop instead of it's own."

 

You are using that Stat from the borrowed model. you are not using that Stat plus The Stat on the model(which in hoffman's case includes a suit.) 

 

The last part of the sentence is the key. you use it instead of its own. You no longer use 3 :tomes you use in this scenario the guardians 6 nothing.

[HalcyonSeraph]

It also says "ignoring suits", which to me says that suits are not a part of this transaction at all. IE, you swap around the numbers and leave the suits where they are. 

[Sharp_GT]

I believe the question was whether he lost the suits from his own actions when he chooses to not borrow stats, in which case I would say no, he retains the suits inherent to his own actions' stats if he is using his own stat for that action.

[The Godlyness]

? if he is using his DF 3 :tomes their is no question he is using his own stat. the question was whether or not he keeps his suit when using another models Stat

 

Which i Say a firm no. You are no longer using Df 3:tomes you are using DF 6 nothing

 

power loop states use the Numeric value. does not say use the numeric value and the suits you have already.

[Sharp_GT]

right, it says quite explicitly that if he uses another model's printed stat that he will not get to use the suits inherent to their stats/actions.

[The Godlyness]

You and i see that. But they dont.  They see can't use the suit from the model that you are "looping" from but can use your own if you have one.

[HalcyonSeraph]

? if he is using his DF 3 :tomes their is no question he is using his own stat. the question was whether or not he keeps his suit when using another models Stat

 

Which i Say a firm no. You are no longer using Df 3:tomes you are using DF 6 nothing

 

power loop states use the Numeric value. does not say use the numeric value and the suits you have already.

 

The difference between the two sides comes down to the interpretation of "ignoring suits". One side believes that means Power Loop itself ignores suits, leaving them wherever they are and only affecting the number used. In this case Hoffman would retain his own tome and use the number from his Power Looped friend.

 

The other things that it means HOFFMAN ignores suits while using Power Loop, and that the suits thus are simply discarded, and he can use neither his own tome nor any suit that may be on the friend. 

 

Both of these interpretations are consistent with both the english and game definitions of all the words involved, thus I think it needs to be FAQd. 

[rancor709]

Yeah this one needs a bit of clarification. I'm tending toward you keep your suit and gain the number from the looped model. But both are accurate readings of the wording so hence Faq moment.

[The Godlyness]

I dont even know why i am arguing guess i should be happy. DF6 master with built in protection. seems good to me so Heck don't care to argue anymore since i play Hoffman alot.

[baskinders]

I agree that it could easily be taken either way, to the point where I'm actually arguing internally with myself about it right now...

 

Simple to clarify this one in the FAQ.

 

Makes me wonder how most people played it through the Beta as that wording had not changed for quite a few updates?

[HalcyonSeraph]

I agree that it could easily be taken either way, to the point where I'm actually arguing internally with myself about it right now...

 

Simple to clarify this one in the FAQ.

 

Makes me wonder how most people played it through the Beta as that wording had not changed for quite a few updates?

 

For what its worth, our group has played that you keep your own suits and use the higher number. 

[Wence]

I always assumed the model kept its inherent suit and swapped just the number of the stat, but can see the need for clarification.  How did we all miss this in the beta?

[Dracomax]

the people who were making assumptions must have all played with people making the same assumptions. it happens.

 

Personally, I beleive that if you are using the other models stat, then you lose all of your own stat, including suit, for the duration of the action. but that could just be carry over from first edition, where it did work that way.

[snord]

@Justin, can we please have this clarification/ruling added to the FAQ? 

 

I honestly think the current wording allows for both interpretations.

 

Thank you!

[zFiend]

I think our Hoffman player plays it so that he takes the value of another model but keeps the suit? Not sure about that, maybe he will drop in and correct me if I'm wrong.

 

But I agree, this seems a bit confusing and could probably do with a FAQ.

[Ausplosions]

Considering the wording in Crossroads says to ignore suits, I think this is all cleared up. Beta cards are superseded.

[Myyrä]

I think our Hoffman player plays it so that he takes the value of another model but keeps the suit? Not sure about that, maybe he will drop in and correct me if I'm wrong.

 

But I agree, this seems a bit confusing and could probably do with a FAQ.

Indeed I do. I was also aware of the problem presented here, but decided to ignore it. If the FAQ tells that I have been playing wrong, I will have to apologize to zFiend and wait for avatars before playing Hoffman again...

[asrian]

Reading it, I would say you take the numerical number from the target, and ignore any in built suits on said target, but retain your own suit, just replacing the number. Same goes for fellow construct target if they Power Loop Hoffman. They get his stat number, ignore any in built suits on said numbers, and retain their own in built suits. That's how I'd interpret/play it anyway. 

[Godgolden]

Why would using purely the numerical value (of which it goes through many pains to state) of another models stat affect your own suit?

 

Sorry but no dice.

[war_B00B]

The difference between the two sides comes down to the interpretation of "ignoring suits". One side believes that means Power Loop itself ignores suits, leaving them wherever they are and only affecting the number used. In this case Hoffman would retain his own tome and use the number from his Power Looped friend.

 

The other things that it means HOFFMAN ignores suits while using Power Loop, and that the suits thus are simply discarded, and he can use neither his own tome nor any suit that may be on the friend. 

 

Both of these interpretations are consistent with both the english and game definitions of all the words involved, thus I think it needs to be FAQd. 

 

I completely agree with you, it needs an FAQ.

 

I would have to say that I would lean more to the first interpretation. It is the Power Loops rule definition, so i would that the Power Loop its self ignores the suits leaving any suits in place on the model they belong to. 

So when using Power Loop you take the value you wish to take and use the suit (if any) that the attacking/defending model has native to it. It works both with attack and defense.

The rule is designed to not give everything grinding halt and to not give attacking models like Howard Langston the auto trigger to Decapitate, not to stop a model from using its own suits

[Brightmore]

My reading of power loop was the opposite, You take the stat remove it's suits, and just use the number suitless(losing your normal suit).

 

I believe it should be FAQed.

[baskinders]

Considering the wording in Crossroads says to ignore suits, I think this is all cleared up. Beta cards are superseded.

The beta included the ignore suits part as well. The issue is which suits do you ignore, the ones that your borrowing (which is what is being talked about when the ignore suits part is used) or all suits during the entire transaction including your own?

How would you play it Aus?