Lelu and Lilitu's Regen ability

[Kintaro]

Hey all,

so Lilitu's/Lelu's ability Regeneration says :

Regeneration +1 : When this model activates, it heals +1 damage.

And their ability Same oppressive/malignant force says :

When this model heals damage or gains a condition from a source other than the same oppressive/malignant force ability, any friendly Lilitu/Lelu heals the same amount of damage or gains the same condition unless it discards two cards.

So here's a situation we ran into tonight :

Lelu suffered 5 damage, and when turn was passed to opponent, she activated Lilitu, who used her Regen, sharing with Lelu. Lilitu was at full health. She then attempted to heal on Lelu.

The discussion that followed was that Lilitu "healed" one, so then so should Lelu.

However, the counter argument was that since she was at full health, she didn't heal anything (IE zero) (per the RB that says if you're at full health, any extra are discarded), so Lelu shouldn't have healed anything either (IE zero).

The Lilitu-controlling player then claims that she healed one - despite it being then discarded - so that Lelu gets the +1 heal "as well".

Can you guys help? Would Lelu get the heal? Seems to two of the three of us that she healed zero, so he'd also heal zero.

Also, can a Marshal weigh in here?

Thanks everyone!!

[Uktena]

She healed one damage as an effect. The effect created excess wds which were discarded. Lelu will also perform the effect.

[Tuttleboy]

She did heal a wound from regeneration, she just didn't get to mark it onto her card, so her brother gets to heal a wound as well.

The rules marshals are a thing of the past for now at least. Take a look at the stickied post from Justing at the top of the page titled Malifaux Rules Discussion in M2E.

[MasterDisaster]

I had this issue crop up at my local gaming club last week. 2 other gamers came over and asked for the opinion of My opponent and I. We (My opponent and I) concluded that as it was the ability regeneration that was shared even though one couldn't heal as it as at max wounds the other would benefit from regen and should heal. Not sure if this was technically correct but it prevented a 10 minute stall to their game!

[EntrepeNinja]

Same question would apply to the Vik's shared healing ability- if a one of the sisters that's tied in provokes a healing flip and is at full health, does the flip still pass onto the sisters? Or can the secondary targets only be healed for an amount that the primary flipper was able to heal?

For instance: Sword Vik, 7/7, Gun Vik 4/7. Sword Vik delivers her first killing stroke of the turn, allowing her to heal flip 1/2/3. Flips a 7, giving 2 health back. As she is at 7/7, she would heal zero. Would Gun Vik be at 4/7 or 6/7?

ENinja

[Myth]

The Viktoria one is a bit easier to resolve, I think. It says that when one Viktoria makes a healing flip, all Sisters in play heal "the flipped amount". So, as long as the Viktoria can make the flip in the first place, it doesn't matter whether that Viktoria heals or not - the healing for the other Sisters is based on the card flipped, and that's all that matters. As far as I can tell, there aren't any restrictions in the game about being unable to perform healing flips for models at full health.

Personally, I'm also of the opinion that the Twins share regen even when one is at full health. Even if the healing is discarded after being applied, the fact that it is applied in the first place is what triggers the shared healing, in my mind. But I definitely agree that it is far from clear and there is room for interpretation.

[The Godlyness]

When this model heals damage..

If you don't heal damage how do tou heal the other.

Edited January 28, 2014 by The Godlyness

[Sharp_GT]

Surprised this got through all of the Wave 2 beta without coming up...

Most of the time I've seen it played that both twins heal the one regardless of either being at full Wds. This makes the most sense logically. I'll include the full text of the abilities in question because no one else has yet. Look at regen:

Regeneration +1: When this model Activates, it heals +1 damage.

So the model in question is healing when it activates, non-optional. So then look at the same ___ force ability:

Same Malignant/Oppressive Force: When this model heals damage or gains a Condition from a source other than the Same Oppressive/Malignant Force Ability, any friendly Lelu/Lilitu heals the same amount of damage or gains the same Condition unless it discards 2 cards.

So when one heals the other does as well, that makes sense pretty easily. Now to settle the matter of whether the activating model will heal at all if at full Wd check out Pg.53 of the Rules Manual (no idea of page in full size):

When an effect heals a model it increases the model’s current Wounds by the number indicated. Healing cannot raise a model’s current Wounds total above its starting Wounds Stat. Any excess healed Wounds are discarded.

So a model will heal the amount no matter what, excess Wounds are simply discarded. So Lelu activates, heals 1 increasing his Wounds from 8/8 to 8/8, and so Lilitu then gets to heal increasing her Wounds from 5/7 to 6/7.

[Mastershake]

Surprised this got through all of the Wave 2 beta without coming up...

Most of the time I've seen it played that both twins heal the one regardless of either being at full Wds. This makes the most sense logically. I'll include the full text of the abilities in question because no one else has yet. Look at regen:

Regeneration +1: When this model Activates, it heals +1 damage.

So the model in question is healing when it activates, non-optional. So then look at the same ___ force ability:

Same Malignant/Oppressive Force: When this model heals damage or gains a Condition from a source other than the Same Oppressive/Malignant Force Ability, any friendly Lelu/Lilitu heals the same amount of damage or gains the same Condition unless it discards 2 cards.

So when one heals the other does as well, that makes sense pretty easily. Now to settle the matter of whether the activating model will heal at all if at full Wd check out Pg.53 of the Rules Manual (no idea of page in full size):

When an effect heals a model it increases the model’s current Wounds by the number indicated. Healing cannot raise a model’s current Wounds total above its starting Wounds Stat. Any excess healed Wounds are discarded.

So a model will heal the amount no matter what, excess Wounds are simply discarded. So Lelu activates, heals 1 increasing his Wounds from 8/8 to 8/8, and so Lilitu then gets to heal increasing her Wounds from 5/7 to 6/7.

You and I are on the same wavelength with this one. The fact that the model still heals, but the excess gets discarded led me from the beginning to play it as they heal each other regardless of relative wounds suffered. Would be nice for clarification though.

[Myth]

Yeah, I read it exactly like Sharp_GT. Even if the effect of the heal is discarded, the heal itself still took place.

[The Godlyness]

Opressive force says heals damage heal the other not if they heal. If you do a healing flip and at full you did not heal damage no heal for the other. Regenerate did it heal damage if no, then no heal.

[Mastershake]

Opressive force says heals damage heal the other not if they heal. If you do a healing flip and at full you did not heal damage no heal for the other. Regenerate did it heal damage if no, then no heal.

It did heal damage, the excess was discarded.

[The Godlyness]

Ok then how much damaged was healed 0 that's good the twin then heals 0.

If opressive/malignant said when ever this model heals heal the same amont that is one thing. But it says if it heals Damage heal the other that one word changes how it reads.

---------- Post added at 07:14 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:07 PM ----------

From the big book page 47. When an effect heals a model increase the models current wounds by the number indicated.

At the basic how many wounds did one twin increase it wound pool by if at full health 0 is the answer. So its twin would get 0. Now if you increased it by 1 or more then its twin does yhe same. To heal no damage and say you healed at all is saying dealing 0 is dealing some.

[bsimon]

The very next sentence is "Any excess healed Wounds are discarded." For them to be discarded, they have to have been healed first.

[Kintaro]

Personally, I'm also of the opinion that the Twins share regen even when one is at full health. Even if the healing is discarded after being applied, the fact that it is applied in the first place is what triggers the shared healing, in my mind. But I definitely agree that it is far from clear and there is room for interpretation.

Oh yeah, the debate isn't whether he GETS the effect, just how much it would affect him.

The thing is, IS the "healed wound" applied? The book says can't go above your max wounds, so it's discarded, not applied and THEN discarded. It can't be applied because there's nothing to apply it TO, see?

The wyrd thing is, the book says wounds healed count back up, then "healed" wounds above the max are discarded. How can you count up something that's not there?

This is the dilemma : )

When this model heals damage..

If you don't heal damage how do tou heal the other.

The question of the hour hehehe...

This is what I'm getting at, and I totally see the other interpretation, but you can't apply a heal to a wound that's not there!

Surprised this got through all of the Wave 2 beta without coming up...

Most of the time I've seen it played that both twins heal the one regardless of either being at full Wds. This makes the most sense logically. I'll include the full text of the abilities in question because no one else has yet. Look at regen:

Regeneration +1: When this model Activates, it heals +1 damage.

So the model in question is healing when it activates, non-optional. So then look at the same ___ force ability:

Same Malignant/Oppressive Force: When this model heals damage or gains a Condition from a source other than the Same Oppressive/Malignant Force Ability, any friendly Lelu/Lilitu heals the same amount of damage or gains the same Condition unless it discards 2 cards.

So when one heals the other does as well, that makes sense pretty easily. Now to settle the matter of whether the activating model will heal at all if at full Wd check out Pg.53 of the Rules Manual (no idea of page in full size):

When an effect heals a model it increases the model’s current Wounds by the number indicated.

So this counts up (increases), IE adds wounds back onto the total health.

Healing cannot raise a model’s current Wounds total above its starting Wounds Stat.

So we keep adding on wounds, until we reach the max, then we STOP, because we can add no more.

Any excess healed Wounds are discarded.

Not APPLIED, as above, but DISCARDED. Tossed. Thrown out. Nullified. Not counted. : )

So a model will heal the amount no matter what, excess Wounds are simply discarded. So Lelu activates, heals 1 increasing his Wounds from 8/8 to 8/8, and so Lilitu then gets to heal increasing her Wounds from 5/7 to 6/7.

Did you not read my original post? I absolutely included the full txt of BOTH abilities : )

I'm also surprised it's not come up sooner.

I've also highlighted and broke out sentence by sentence the quoted book bit about healing in your quote above.

I disagree because the book seemingly contradicts itself. Everyone FOR the heal is looking at the last sentence in your quoted paragraph, while the two before it says you can't do that. And therein lies the issue. I tend to agree based on just the last sentence, because of the wording. It's the two before it that bother me. Taken together, it seemingly says "Heal counts up, then hits max, so the rest are discarded" which equals, at full health, a heal of ZERO, since healing renews wounds, and at full, we're adding zero. My opinion is that it clearly says that you are not allowed to add wounds where you can't. So even though the heal ability is +1, I feel that that one gets chucked at full health, effectively not counting.

If we look at just the last sentence, the Regen is passed from the first model, who hasn't healed one because there's none to heal, and so the second model does the same thing, again bringing us to ZERO. Whether he gets the ability shared to him isn't the debate, it's the amount passed in the effect.

Thanks for the feedback you guys!!! Keep it coming!

---------- Post added at 04:46 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:44 PM ----------

The very next sentence is "Any excess healed Wounds are discarded." For them to be discarded, they have to have been healed first.

That's where I'm having the issue - this sentence seemingly contradicts the two before it. How can you apply a heal to a wound that's not there? I feel it's a syntax issue.

---------- Post added at 04:54 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:46 PM ----------

BTW, ultimately I just had the players flip for it and we went on with the game : )

---------- Post added at 05:01 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:54 PM ----------

ONE MORE THING, JACKIIIIIEEEEE!

Page 52 of the manual, for what it's worth, defines damage as WOUNDS REDUCED.

[EntrepeNinja]

The Viktoria one is a bit easier to resolve, I think. It says that when one Viktoria makes a healing flip, all Sisters in play heal "the flipped amount". So, as long as the Viktoria can make the flip in the first place, it doesn't matter whether that Viktoria heals or not - the healing for the other Sisters is based on the card flipped, and that's all that matters. As far as I can tell, there aren't any restrictions in the game about being unable to perform healing flips for models at full health.

Personally, I'm also of the opinion that the Twins share regen even when one is at full health. Even if the healing is discarded after being applied, the fact that it is applied in the first place is what triggers the shared healing, in my mind. But I definitely agree that it is far from clear and there is room for interpretation.

Yeah, I went back to the card just after posting this, and wished I had done so earlier. It was a much easier problem to resolve, as it specifies "the flipped amount".

ENinja

[Kadeton]

I'm pretty sure this has come up before, several times, though I can't guarantee that it wasn't in the closed beta forum.

It's very much akin to the "How much damage was dealt?" question - if a model hits another for 6 Wds, but the target has Armor +2 and only suffers 4 Wds, was the damage dealt 4 or 6?

From memory, it was confirmed that a point of healing that's discarded doesn't count towards the "damage healed", just like a point of damage that's reduced, prevented or otherwise discarded doesn't count towards "damage dealt".

However, I could be wrong, and since we're otherwise doomed to see this issue crop up over and over again in various forms, it would be good to see it in the FAQ.

[zFiend]

Surprised this got through all of the Wave 2 beta without coming up...

Most of the time I've seen it played that both twins heal the one regardless of either being at full Wds. This makes the most sense logically. I'll include the full text of the abilities in question because no one else has yet. Look at regen:

Regeneration +1: When this model Activates, it heals +1 damage.

So the model in question is healing when it activates, non-optional. So then look at the same ___ force ability:

Same Malignant/Oppressive Force: When this model heals damage or gains a Condition from a source other than the Same Oppressive/Malignant Force Ability, any friendly Lelu/Lilitu heals the same amount of damage or gains the same Condition unless it discards 2 cards.

So when one heals the other does as well, that makes sense pretty easily. Now to settle the matter of whether the activating model will heal at all if at full Wd check out Pg.53 of the Rules Manual (no idea of page in full size):

When an effect heals a model it increases the model’s current Wounds by the number indicated. Healing cannot raise a model’s current Wounds total above its starting Wounds Stat. Any excess healed Wounds are discarded.

So a model will heal the amount no matter what, excess Wounds are simply discarded. So Lelu activates, heals 1 increasing his Wounds from 8/8 to 8/8, and so Lilitu then gets to heal increasing her Wounds from 5/7 to 6/7.

Really well put. I agree with Sharp.

[Fetid Strumpet]

I'm really not sure I agree. The precedent that has been set language wise throughout the rest of the game is that if you do something at 0 it didn't do it.

Move 0" and you don't count as having ended a move.

Get pushed, and as a result of terrain or models your push ends instantly, so you don't count as having been pushed.

Do dmg that your opponent reduces to 0, and you don't count as having done dmg.

Given these precedents I'm going to assume, until the FAQ comes out that healing 0 means no healing occurs. Ie for the twins to share healing they must actually have taken dmg.

[zFiend]

I'm really not sure I agree. The precedent that has been set language wise throughout the rest of the game is that if you do something at 0 it didn't do it.

Move 0" and you don't count as having ended a move.

Get pushed, and as a result of terrain or models your push ends instantly, so you don't count as having been pushed.

Do dmg that your opponent reduces to 0, and you don't count as having done dmg.

Given these precedents I'm going to assume, until the FAQ comes out that healing 0 means no healing occurs. Ie for the twins to share healing they must actually have taken dmg.

Hm. That is also true. Well debated. I suppose nothing left to do but wait for the final answer from the dev team.

[vonevilstein]

I'm really not sure I agree. The precedent that has been set language wise throughout the rest of the game is that if you do something at 0 it didn't do it.

Whilst that's true, technically the healing isn't done at 0. It's done at whatever the healing value is, it's just then it's discarded as per:-

When an effect heals a model it increases the model’s current Wounds by the number indicated. Healing cannot raise a model’s current Wounds total above its starting Wounds Stat. Any excess healed Wounds are discarded.

To be fair though, I think either interpretation is valid until there's a FAQ.

My personal interpretation is to look at this from the perspective of the intent of the ability. If one twin can't heal the other because it's a full wounds then the usefulness of the ability is very much compromised - especially as most players are likely to position Lilith for non-combat and Lelu for combat. However I guess that could just as easily be the intention.

Edited January 29, 2014 by vonevilstein

[Fetid Strumpet]

Whilst that's true, technically the healing isn't done at 0. It's done at whatever the healing value is, it's just then it's discarded as per:-

To be fair though, I think either interpretation is valid until there's a FAQ.

My personal interpretation is to look at this from the perspective of the intent of the ability. If one twin can't heal the other because it's a full wounds then the usefulness of the ability is very much compromised - especially as most players are likely to position Lilith for non-combat and Lelu for combat. However I guess that could just as easily be the intention.

The problem is, that is to some extent the exact same argument I made, and honestly understood in regards to moves and pushes before the FAQ came out. The fact that a model was subjected to a move action meant that even if they didn't in fact move the tiniest amount on the table didn't change the fact that they had just ended a "Move". The same with pushes. I had understood before the FAQ that if, for example, Lilith targeted a model who was already in b2b contact with a wall with Transfixing Gaze, the fact that they didn't actually move at all didn't change the fact that they ended a push in b2b with a piece of impassible terrain, and therefore would take dmg and get the slow condition. The FAQ changed that.

The language and intent in multiple cases has been shown to be that if something occurs, and it doesn't in fact cause any of the things it is supposed to cause, then it didn't happen. Be forced to move and move 0", means you didn't move for any game effects. Be forced to Push and be pushed 0", means you didn't get pushed for any in game effects. The same with damage, and so while I can see the argument, I think for consistency sake if nothing else I would argue that if you have no wounds to heal, you don't heal, nor trigger any in game effects that are triggered from it.

Luckily if the intent is opposite, at least in the twins case, wording fixes can be done on their cards before they come out to amend this issue.

[zFiend]

Wasn't it also ruled that even if Tara discards 0 cards, she has performed the "discard action"? So wouldn't that make that if Lilitu heals 0 she has performed the heal action and thus Lelu would copy it and heal what it can?

[vonevilstein]

The problem is, that is to some extent the exact same argument I made, and honestly understood in regards to moves and pushes before the FAQ came out. The fact that a model was subjected to a move action meant that even if they didn't in fact move the tiniest amount on the table didn't change the fact that they had just ended a "Move". The same with pushes. I had understood before the FAQ that if, for example, Lilith targeted a model who was already in b2b contact with a wall with Transfixing Gaze, the fact that they didn't actually move at all didn't change the fact that they ended a push in b2b with a piece of impassible terrain, and therefore would take dmg and get the slow condition. The FAQ changed that.

The language and intent in multiple cases has been shown to be that if something occurs, and it doesn't in fact cause any of the things it is supposed to cause, then it didn't happen. Be forced to move and move 0", means you didn't move for any game effects. Be forced to Push and be pushed 0", means you didn't get pushed for any in game effects. The same with damage, and so while I can see the argument, I think for consistency sake if nothing else I would argue that if you have no wounds to heal, you don't heal, nor trigger any in game effects that are triggered from it.

Luckily if the intent is opposite, at least in the twins case, wording fixes can be done on their cards before they come out to amend this issue.

Yup, fair point...

[Mastershake]

Parts of the FAQ and the ruling on Master of Malifaux vs. Silent were a little disheartening. It kind of makes it to where if there's a language ambiguity in the rules it can't be resolved short of getting a designer involved. Not sure I'm a fan.

By RAW a model at full health still heals, so it should work, but hey what can you do.

[CRC]

I think that "damage" and "wounds" aren't the same thing.

If I shoot Lelu with a bullet that deals 3 damage, he will have 5 wounds left.

A Lelu at full health has zero damage and eight wounds. Since he has no damage, I don't think he can heal any damage. Healing will give him excess wounds, which will drain off, but that's not the same thing.

Then again, I'm not sure that healing ever removes damage, because I don't think damage is a thing that persists. So clearly the Same X Force should say "heal wounds" instead of "heal damage"