Lure discussion and new FAQ.

[Soundwave]

A while back there was a big ole thread about Lure, which ended up that everyone agreed that we wanted it FAQ'd. Now we did get a bit of FAQ'ing so I figured it's time to see if it helped out in straightening stuff up.

Premises:

Lure: Move target model its Wk. The target must end the move as close to this model as possible

Clarification, just because they pop up in most of these discussions - it's a Move not a Push, so we can't reference the push rule.

Q: If a model with the Lure Action targets a model in base contact, can Lure be used to move the targeted model, so long as it ends in base contact with the model taking the Lure Action?

A: No. A model which is already in base contact may not be moved any further with the Lure Action.

Pounce:When an enemy model ends a push or move within this model's engagement range that is not part of a Walk or Charge Action, this model may...

So, with that said I'll just toss out a few statements and see if we agree.

Situation A

B lures A. A has a wk of 7 and stands 2" from B. Does A have to move in a straight line and stop in base to base with B, like with a Push, or can B make A use its full wk of 7 as long as it stops in base to base contact? This question only arises if the model is so close that it actually has "spare wk", otherwise it'd always take the shortest route, of course. See image below

As it stands by the current rules, I'm going with Yes, the above is legal. A moves it Wk and it ends it move as close as possible (0" from .

Situation B

A stands right next to B. B attempts to Lure A.

As per the FAQ the target doesn't move.

Can the action be taken even though it will not generate any move?

This is of interest because of things like "She doesn't look that dead to me", Not that kind of girl, Smell Fear, Feast of Fear etc, that triggers on failed Wp duels or on successful Lures.

My interpretation is Yes, the action can be taken, it just move the target.

Situation C

A stands right next to B. B attempts to Lure A.

As per the FAQ the target doesn't move.

Does this trigger Pounce?

By extension, is 0" still a move of 0"?

My interpretation is No, because as per the FAQ, it simply doesn't move, so we don't really have to factor in if 0"= A Move.

Opinions?

Edited November 5, 2013 by Soundwave

[Ausplosions]

I agree on all counts.

I dont like the "walk around a model" thing, and don't play it that way myself, but until it is ruled on i think it is perfectly legal RAW.

[Csonti]

on all three interpretations are correct

and :+fate on the "don't like" part

They need to make an errata if the intent was not to let situation A happen.

[hypoking]

What they said, but with more wit

[Mike3838]

Agree, agree, and agree

[Joel]

Agree in all instances, but I really dislike situation A.

[Soundwave]

I personally don't mind the Situation A-part, but I wouldn't cry rivers if it was errata'd in the opposite way.

Good to know there seems to be a consensus (as far as 6 people are a consensus) regarding the different situations at least. Right now I can't come up with any more "weird interactions" with Lure.

Edited November 5, 2013 by Soundwave
6 people! Damn ninja-Joel...

[Fetid Strumpet]

I disagree on principle with the move 0" does not equal a move. According to the dog ruling though I can see it extending to that so it's hard to argue. The issue is that interpretation is not what any groups I played in tested, and it is not what playing at Gen con anyone had a problem with using the other way. Part of the whole reason for Pounce, as I interpreted it, was to give a reason to run models with it in large numbers if they had low dmg, and was part of the reason we didn't push harder for the Belle's ML to go up by one or the min dmg to go up by one.

Unless Wyrd rules otherwise I personally will be allowing Pounce to work on all moves of 0 in any evens I run, although I will mention that this is a grey area and that there is a dissenting opinion on this interpretation.

[Csonti]

Hmm... interesting. I wouldn't want to derail this thread but I find Lure the single most powerful ability of the game even without multi-Pounce tricks. Huge range board control with Ca8 on a 5 SS model that has 8 Wd and HtW (and just for the fun of it: can chain activate, could force card drops, hand out slow and hit with Ml5 and a decent trigger)? Shut up and take my money! Oh wait... I can even summon them with ease.

[Mike3838]

I disagree on principle with the move 0" does not equal a move. According to the dog ruling though I can see it extending to that so it's hard to argue. The issue is that interpretation is not what any groups I played in tested, and it is not what playing at Gen con anyone had a problem with using the other way. Part of the whole reason for Pounce, as I interpreted it, was to give a reason to run models with it in large numbers if they had low dmg, and was part of the reason we didn't push harder for the Belle's ML to go up by one or the min dmg to go up by one.

Unless Wyrd rules otherwise I personally will be allowing Pounce to work on all moves of 0 in any evens I run, although I will mention that this is a grey area and that there is a dissenting opinion on this interpretation.

Not seeing the issue here, and I don't think there's really dissenting opinion (apart from yourself...). The errata says the model may not be moved, not that it moves 0. No move takes place.

Having multiple models Luring and Pouncing is still perfectly valid and an effective tactic - you just stand them half an inch apart and Lure backwards and forwards.

[Soundwave]

Not seeing the issue here, and I don't think there's really dissenting opinion (apart from yourself...). The errata says the model may not be moved, not that it moves 0. No move takes place.

Having multiple models Luring and Pouncing is still perfectly valid and an effective tactic - you just stand them half an inch apart and Lure backwards and forwards.

Only difference is that you can only Pounce once per Belle, since if they stand .5" together, only one Lure can take place that causes pounces. The other AP will have to be a Ml attack or Undress, or somesuch.

[Mike3838]

That sounds pretty balanced on the face of it - although I haven't tested Belles in M2E as yet.

A model engaged with merely two Belles could be subject to 8 strikes (Lure + Pounce + Pounce twice, then same again) before it got chance to do anything. That certainly sounds excessive on paper!

The errata means you "only" get 6 strikes (Lure + Pounce + Pounce, then strike, then same again).

[Fetid Strumpet]

*shrug* I disagree and will be ruling differently until an official stance from Wyrd comes out.

[Soundwave]

*shrug* I disagree and will be ruling differently until an official stance from Wyrd comes out.

How much more official can it get? You don't move 0", you don't move at all if you start in base to base.

Why would you rule it different in your events?

[Ausplosions]

I disagree on principle with the move 0" does not equal a move. According to the dog ruling though I can see it extending to that so it's hard to argue. The issue is that interpretation is not what any groups I played in tested, and it is not what playing at Gen con anyone had a problem with using the other way. Part of the whole reason for Pounce, as I interpreted it, was to give a reason to run models with it in large numbers if they had low dmg, and was part of the reason we didn't push harder for the Belle's ML to go up by one or the min dmg to go up by one.

Unless Wyrd rules otherwise I personally will be allowing Pounce to work on all moves of 0 in any evens I run, although I will mention that this is a grey area and that there is a dissenting opinion on this interpretation.

But luring a model in base contact doesn't move it 0",it just does not move it at all.

Not sure how you are allowing Pounce to trigger off that..

---------- Post added at 08:27 AM ---------- Previous post was at 08:25 AM ----------

How much more official can it get? You don't move 0", you don't move at all if you start in base to base.

Why would you rule it different in your events?

Thank you!

Short of "Fetid, you are wrong" , it's probably not going to get more clear cut.

If the model moved 0",i would agree, completely, but it doesn't. It just DOES NOT MOVE.

[DeleteAccount]

I've always played it this way and I'm pretty sure the errata's intent is pretty clear. So yeah, another vote for "no, you don't get free attacks for casting lure on a base to base model". Rotten belle's are amazing and certainly don't need this to work and it's not like you can't put 2 belle's close to each other to pass the model around and trigger pounces.

[solkan]

And, really, the counter to "But that's not how it was played at GenCon" is to finish the sentence: That's not how it was played at GenCon because no one knew any better, and it hadn't been FAQ'd yet.

[Drix]

As the OP of the "other" Lure thread I'm glad this got addressed. Hats off to Wyrd.

I agree on all counts, Situation "A" doesn't really bother me, all that matters with regards to where the model ends up is it being as close as possible to the targeted model.

@Strumpet- I could get behind petitioning for a stat boost to the Belle's combat ability as the 0" Pounce no longer works. Either upping their Ml or min damage + 1.

[DeleteAccount]

@Strumpet- I could get behind petitioning for a stat boost to the Belle's combat ability as the 0" Pounce no longer works. Either upping their Ml or min damage + 1.

I see no reason for this at all, I've always played it as intended and I still always bring at least one in my resser crews.

[decker_cky]

That sounds pretty balanced on the face of it - although I haven't tested Belles in M2E as yet.

A model engaged with merely two Belles could be subject to 8 strikes (Lure + Pounce + Pounce twice, then same again) before it got chance to do anything. That certainly sounds excessive on paper!

The errata means you "only" get 6 strikes (Lure + Pounce + Pounce, then strike, then same again).

If there's two models to target, you can still get 8 strikes (4 against each).

[The Godlyness]

Lure: Move target model its Wk. The target must end the move as close to this model as possible

Pounce:When an enemy model ends a push or move within this model's engagement range that is not part of a Walk or Charge Action, this model may...

Now i may be either over simplifying this or a genius.

lure says move a model its walk. faq says if your in b2b no move happens, moving 0 does not count as moving so on so forth.

now to my point why does that matter?

pounce says ended a move. which even if i moved or not at all an Action or an abilty caused me to move (or attempt to move) so by all accounts did i not do what pounce asked? ended a move that was was not a walk or charge action?

bell is b2b casts lure on model. model has ended a move in my engagement range regardless if it moved or not. This is due to Lure saying Move this model. which even if it did not move i would be counted as ending a move that was not a walk or charge.

just how i see it.

---------- Post added at 11:24 AM ---------- Previous post was at 11:21 AM ----------

in pounce there is no clause saying models had to have at least moved to be pounced, just ending a move, which they do cause of lure.

[dgraz]

in pounce there is no clause saying models had to have at least moved to be pounced, just ending a move, which they do cause of lure.

If you never start a move, how do you end one?

[Lucidicide]

If you never start a move, how do you end one?

In my case, when my wife stopped working that ended our move before it began. Damn financing.

Hahaha... oh... depressing. :-P

[The Godlyness]

If you never start a move, how do you end one?

See Lure.

---------- Post added at 12:03 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:02 PM ----------

Starts a move at 0 ends a move at 0. ended a move

[Rob Lo]

It's directly comparable to the question in the FAQ:

Q: If a model suffers 0 (zero) damage, does it count as having suffered damage?

A: No.

If a models moves 0, does it count as having moved? No.

[The Godlyness]

disagree. as does Ausplosins as he has said so in this forum

http://www.wyrd-games.net/showthread.php?48543-Smoke-and-Shadows/page2

---------- Post added at 12:15 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:12 PM ----------

lure says move, you have to do what it says as it is an effect.

ok you dont move cause you cant.

you ended a move

pouce kicks off

---------- Post added at 12:15 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:15 PM ----------

How far you move is irrelevant since Pounce just asks that you end one for it to work