A Serious Discussion...

[Jonasty]

How dare you talk ill of the 40SS format and single my tournament out!!! I'll remember this in a few weeks when you show up for it!!! *grin*

As I've played with you and the locals, I agree that 50SS seems to be the good norm for playing and in the future I plan on most of my events being in the 50 range. For this initial tournament I'm running that you'll be attending, the 40SS range was settled on mainly because as you've seen in our area we're still trying to build the community up. There are a number of guys who would potentially struggle to field a 50SS list.

The other big thing with the newer crowd we're aiming towards with the tourney is that it helps keep the tournament within the timeframes established without cutting off games after Turn 2. With some of the newer guys, playing a full 50SS crew ends up making the game go slower since they're still trying to understand what the rules are and what their crew does. I think once the local people have a better grasp on the game, a 50SS event won't have that time crunch that you'd see with a bunch of new players.

So yeah, ultimately I think 50SS is the right size for most games and most competitive formats. I think when you're working with a newer playerset which we're definitely seeing with the 2E release, 40SS feels like it's more forgiving in certain aspects.

[PeregrineFalcon]

I don't have enough experience with M2E at this point to agree or disagree that it plays 'best' at any given level, or if there are balance issues at higher or lower levels.

I don't think that can ever be decided, as there will always be a healthy debate on that issue. What I hope for is to have a better understanding for creating local events (and larger con events), that can be geared towards a player audience. So if I say this is a 'beginner' tournament or a 'highly competitive experience tournament', or a mix tournament it can give potential attendees a better gauge for the competition. Not to say someone would/wouldn't attend for it being one way or the other. Simply put, helping make sure people know what they're walking into.

One reason for this, is that with the incredibly HEALTHY increase in player base in the New England area, I forsee more events going on. Events that can range from total fluffy story encounters, to beginner competitive tournaments, up to prep tournaments for larger cons that would be highly competitive. So if I want to run an event the same weekend as another henchman I can draw from one player base and he can from another without feeling like we are ruining one another events. Just a thought, and I think this is a good 'problem' to have. Giving Malifaux players multiple event options (at least in our area) has been a foreign concept until recently.

From the response so far it would be worth trying deescalation format strating at 50 ss and working downwards each round.

I'll have to ponder on this, but see it is a theoretically good idea.

---------- Post added at 01:10 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:59 PM ----------

How dare you talk ill of the 40SS format and single my tournament out!!! I'll remember this in a few weeks when you show up for it!!! *grin*

As I've played with you and the locals, I agree that 50SS seems to be the good norm for playing and in the future I plan on most of my events being in the 50 range. For this initial tournament I'm running that you'll be attending, the 40SS range was settled on mainly because as you've seen in our area we're still trying to build the community up. There are a number of guys who would potentially struggle to field a 50SS list.

The other big thing with the newer crowd we're aiming towards with the tourney is that it helps keep the tournament within the timeframes established without cutting off games after Turn 2. With some of the newer guys, playing a full 50SS crew ends up making the game go slower since they're still trying to understand what the rules are and what their crew does. I think once the local people have a better grasp on the game, a 50SS event won't have that time crunch that you'd see with a bunch of new players.

So yeah, ultimately I think 50SS is the right size for most games and most competitive formats. I think when you're working with a newer playerset which we're definitely seeing with the 2E release, 40SS feels like it's more forgiving in certain aspects.

Oh yeah I totally understand your approach for the 40ss game. For the reasons you and Ian have stated it makes total sense. To be honest, while yours is 40ss, I started this post not because of your event, but because I saw a larger con (Warstore weekend) putting on a 40ss weekend of events.

Which really got me thinking is 40ss for beginners? Is 40ss for more advanced play? Which is it, because I don't have enough experience.

I'm not sure 50ss is the right size yet either. Right now I'm debating starting to play some 45ss games on a more regular basis simply because I don't know.

Its sort of a chinese menu right now, but wanted the general community to weigh in because I'm ignorant on the issue.

40ss for a beginner event makes sense simply if we want to keep reduce the 'options fatigue' for newer players. So that's why after discussing here I think that we should just call them 'starter box' events. Which I think are awesome, and would totally love to attend/run in the future. For me any chance to play the game is a good time, I couldn't care less about the format. Its more for giving our player base enough information to make the trip to an event that may be 1-2 hours away.

[nilus]

I'm actually hoping we get a Gaining Grounds 2014 doc that helps clearify exactly the standard for OP Wyrd wants.

It also be nice to get a clear picture of what they expect for round times, scheme and strategy selections and any other lose ends that need to be spelled out for a tournament.

[PeregrineFalcon]

Yeah, I'd love this as well. I think tomorrow I'm going to attempt a 45ss game and see how it goes. Then step down to 40ss and see how it feels.

I'm actually hoping we get a Gaining Grounds 2014 doc that helps clearify exactly the standard for OP Wyrd wants.

It also be nice to get a clear picture of what they expect for round times, scheme and strategy selections and any other lose ends that need to be spelled out for a tournament.

[rancor709]

I'm actually hoping we get a Gaining Grounds 2014 doc that helps clearify exactly the standard for OP Wyrd wants.

It also be nice to get a clear picture of what they expect for round times, scheme and strategy selections and any other lose ends that need to be spelled out for a tournament.

This all day this. I'm hoping for nice convent soup package

[Malal]

Variety is the spice of life (and he who controls the Spice controls the universe). I'd like to see tournaments at a variety of SS limit's, limited pools, single master, single faction, starter box only...more, different challenges so the final rankings show the best overall not just the best at 1 particular size/stytle

[Cornelious1424]

We've been playing 50ss and sometimes it feels like I have too many toys, not enough decision making. I think for hardcore organized play you'll see 40-45ss and for a more casual experience you'll see 50ss. I personally like the happy medium of 45 =).

[Tuttleboy]

I've been playing 45 SS games for many of the reasons stated, chiefly you have to make some choices on what toys to bring and you don't feel so constrained by costs that you can only take your "best" upgrades and models. I've also layed lots of 50 stone games during beta because that's the size we've been given as "standard" in the book.

For those looking for variety during a tournament why not start at a set level and then have the TO flip a card prior to each round to adjust the game size?

[Gorbad]

We've been playing 50ss and sometimes it feels like I have too many toys, not enough decision making.

Can people actually fit in what they want at 50ss? I don't think I've made a 50ss crew where I've not had to leave something behind that I wanted to bring.

[Cats Laughing]

Iirc, 40 allows Henchmen as leaders.

Note, that time limits could be another reason for smaller limits as presumably, fewer points equals fewer models equals faster turns and games. 50 is the standard to warmahordes but m meta runs more 35s to squeeze in more games in less time.

[Cpeerson]

I think you have to find a SS balance locally depending on your player base. For instance in my local area Malifaux has to compete with established Warmachine/Hordes and GW groups. Three of the selling points of Malifaux are: the rules, the initial cost, and wide range of themes. Like for my area I may try to keep the SS to a starter box and 1 to 2 models (or 3 to 5 for the gremlins) to try and get newer players interested in Malifaux even though they own WM/Hordes or GE stuff.

[Inquisitor Wall]

I have found 40 to be an ok size especially with only the ability to choose from the book 1 models. I am sure that with the second wave 50 will seem better as there will be more options. Right now I am feeling that at 50 points I am either taking lots of the same choices, belles and ronin or putting in models that don't really gel with my chosen master.

I also like 40 right now as I'm still picking up on some of the nuances that have changed with 2nd edition.

[bearn]

Locally we have been running 30SS games to ease old and new players into the new rules and its been working well. Games are very small and you really have to focus on each piece you have in play. At 50SS the game look about right where old 1.5 was so they are about right on that, although we seem to be having just as much fun at the lower pt games.

[HalcyonSeraph]

50ss is so standard in my group that we don't even say it anymore. Sometimes if we're pressed for time we'll suggest a smaller game, but in general when we sit down to play we assume it's a 50ss game.

I run demos at around 30ss though.

[Stadon]

My standard game is 50ss, and I have run a 35ss demo (with upgrades) for someone who had played 1.5 but never 2.0 and it worked well and quickly.

[Ikvar]

My standard game is 50ss, and I have run a 35ss demo (with upgrades) for someone who had played 1.5 but never 2.0 and it worked well and quickly.

This is exactly how I have done it with M2E, I only play "serious" games with 50ss, but all my normal demos with 30-35SS

[Guy in Suit]

To be honest, while yours is 40ss, I started this post not because of your event, but because I saw a larger con (Warstore weekend) putting on a 40ss weekend of events.

I decided on 40SS entirely by fiat, as I needed the initial rules up on the Warstore Weekend website ASAP. So far response has been positive from what I have heard, but if you'd prefer a different size for whichever event, I will gladly hear your argument!

Frankly, if you and your opponent want to play a different size game in the Friday night Story event (read: casual) and are sure to complete before time is called, I would be totally fine with that!

[PeregrineFalcon]

I decided on 40SS entirely by fiat, as I needed the initial rules up on the Warstore Weekend website ASAP. So far response has been positive from what I have heard, but if you'd prefer a different size for whichever event, I will gladly hear your argument!

Frankly, if you and your opponent want to play a different size game in the Friday night Story event (read: casual) and are sure to complete before time is called, I would be totally fine with that!

@Guy in Suit: That's pretty cool of you! Knowing the seriousness of the guys in your gaming area for competitive play, I was more curious if the 40ss was because you guys had done some testing and felt like it worked well. Sounds like 40ss was a convenience thing a little bit (also based on your discussion on Malifools).

I recently took a look at what I normally would take for some of these events and at 40ss it is def. tough. For example, Reconnoiter is really tough at 40ss I think. I think it will make for a VERY interesting game, but incredibly difficult for some box sets that don't have low cost minions to help get table quarters. For reconnoiter I usually shoot for ~9 models (non-peon) and at 40ss that is pretty difficult. For 40ss I am thinking I may need to omit a peon totem.

With all that said, I really am excited about these 40ss tournaments popping up in the area. If 40ss helps get games in quicker I'm all for that, getting a full 5 turn game in during a tournament round should def. be the goal. It's just tough to build (which I welcome) lists for some of the strats at 40ss, but hey my opponent has to do the same thing.

After Warstore Weekend and Mali-fest (and other events occurring), I think some feedback will be welcomed to this thread.

[i_was_like_you]

To me, 50ss as the standard may have been a bit of a rounding error in the translation from 1.5 to 2.0.

A lot of models did each have their soulstone cost raised by a point or three, plus the costs of Upgrades on Masters, Henchmen, and Enforcers. So going from 25 or even 35ss standard in 1.5 to 2.0, going with the box and fluff based default crews, adding a few points to each model might make the total sit at or around 50ss. It's a bit of artificial inflation. We still get the same models, but now the same list costs more. Whether that list is still viable in the new format is a different story.

The points people have made regarding 40, 41, 45, and 50ss games in 2.0 all have their merits. Playing at 25ss in 1.5 was a good start, but then we couldn't bring our fun toys. Playing at 35ss seemed to be the sweet spot, where we could bring one or two extra models, without losing our core crew. Higher than that, and there were often too many models, thus too many activations, resulting in longer play times.

[Guy in Suit]

@Guy in Suit: That's pretty cool of you! Knowing the seriousness of the guys in your gaming area for competitive play, I was more curious if the 40ss was because you guys had done some testing and felt like it worked well. Sounds like 40ss was a convenience thing a little bit (also based on your discussion on Malifools).

It's tough to be serious when half the players don't even own the rules yet, and those of us that do are still wrapping our heads around the new edition!

But it is also not only a timing concern, but also prevents certain types of corner case builds - it is a lot tougher to put down a dozen bayou gremlins for reconnoiter at 40ss than it is at 50ss.