What's with the negativity?

[Vanilla_Dice]

Ok, so I've had a bit of a read around the place and have listened to many a podcast, I listen to all of them really.

The most recent once that has inspired this thread is gamers lounge, let me start by saying that I am a fan of bill's and even had the chance to run him through the mechanics of the vassal module when it first released, this is in NO WAY an attack at anyone or their differing points of view.

The thought that I had is this, there seems to be some hate for what has been done with M2E, and fair enough, there is some massive changes, and everyone keeps comparing it to the old and going "why did they do that" "that's the worst idea ever" "oh it was so much better in 1.5"...... Blah blah blah.

my question is, why do people have to be so negative about it? What is all the ranting gonna achieve? The book is already at print so is pretty much coming, are some of us really that vindictive that we want to sway other people into M2E hate? Cause that's not gonna change it, wyrd aren't going to all the sudden come out and say "oh sorry guys, we made a mistake, let's throw all the money we've spent making changes out the window and go back to V1.5"

if anything all this negativity is going to do is try and sway more people away from M2E..... End result, less people buy stuff, wyrd makes less money and worst case..... They shut down and we loose malifaux all together. Is that really what people want?

if you don't like M2E, fair enough, that's your opinion, but why try bring others down too? Why not just do the mature thing, say "oh well" and either continue playing 1.5 with your group of haters, or just move on to another game?

personally I can't wait to have the new book in my hands, take a fresh approach to a NEW game and see where it takes me into the future.

[Jonas Albrecht]

It's an edition change, my good man. There's bound to be all kinds of howling.

[BrotherPaulos]

I absolutely 100% agree with the sentiment of this thread. It's a different game, it's a new game. If this was a new edition of 40k the sum extent of the hate threads would be 'I quit'

I really don't understand why people are so publicly abusing M2E, what on earth do expect to achieve? Move on.

[DeleteAccount]

It's all about feeling validated. It's about saying "M2 is better and I want to be proven right" or saying "M2 is a horrible mistake, I want to be validated". That's why people on both sides get so confrontational about the whole issue, specially those that feel very invested in the game, since they want to feel that their decision is right and the best way to feel that is to get other people to say "yes, you are right".

This applies to both sides of the argument and well, since nobody knows if 1 year from now M2 will be a resounding success or not and the blood is recent, people are really jumpy about it. In the later half of the playtest people were focused so this barely came up, but at the start it was pretty much a pitch battle and now that everything is calm again people are starting to get fidgety again.

[PierceSternum]

Its a fool's errand to say "what its all about".

Everyone has their OWN reasons for their words and actions.

Some people take things personally.

And others MAKE it personal.

Its just the way things are... Everywhere... And in everything...

I think its funny when people think "high school crap" is some sort of special "different" behavior when its actually the way the world is all the time and at all ages.

People are giving their opinions. They are negative opinions, so people are negative.

Other people have negative opinions of the negative opinions, so they are negative.

It just is...

[Mister Shine]

"The people on my side are arguing for what they believe in, but those other guys are just being delusional"

~Both Sides

[PierceSternum]

lol.

[Vanilla_Dice]

But seriously, what's it gonna achieve apart from rants, anger and arguments?

Maybe I may sound like a hippy, but can't we all just agree to disagree? M2e isn't bad or good.... Just different.

[TekDekay]

"Don't, don't, don't, don't you, forget about me." --- sorry, mentioning high school and peoples' opinions just reminds me of the movie: "The Breakfast Club".

I say to each their own, and hey, at least people care enough about the game to feel the need to express their opinion about it with passion whether their view is perceived as negative or positive. Its better than apathy and indifference.

Its a fool's errand to say "what its all about".

Everyone has their OWN reasons for their words and actions.

Some people take things personally.

And others MAKE it personal.

Its just the way things are... Everywhere... And in everything...

I think its funny when people think "high school crap" is some sort of special "different" behavior when its actually the way the world is all the time and at all ages.

People are giving their opinions. They are negative opinions, so people are negative.

Other people have negative opinions of the negative opinions, so they are negative.

It just is...

[Jonas Albrecht]

But seriously, what's it gonna achieve apart from rants, anger and arguments?

It's going to achieve cathartic first world distraction from life.

[thebarbalag]

At this point, negative opinions are pointless and do nothing but detract from the game and the community. During the previous playtest was the place to say you didn't like X rule for Y reasons or thought there was a problem with a given model and to suggest changes. The same will be true for the next phase of the playtest. There, "negativity" expressed properly, as reasoned criticism, has a legitimate purpose.

For right now, negativity really isn't doing anybody any good at all. It isn't improving the game. It isn't helping the community. Right now, I don't care if you don't like the game. It is too late to make changes. The book and the cards are at the printer. Expressing distaste in these forums is unproductive at best and damaging to the game and the community at worst.

As has been said above in this thread, it is, at this point, about validation. I'm here to talk about the game. I empathize with people who feel disenfranchised by the game and understand that change is hard. I just don't want any more divisiveness in the community. When the next wave of playtesting starts, bring on the criticism, that's the point of it. For right now, please, consider, are you trying to improve the game and the community, or are you looking for attention?

[PierceSternum]

[caen]

Why not just do the mature thing, say "oh well" and either continue playing 1.5 with your group of haters, or just move on to another game?

Why are You suggesing that Gamers who still like Malifaux 1.5 more than M2E are "haters"? For me They (We) are only Gamers who think that Malifaux 1.5 is "better/more entertaining/orginal/one and only/more fluffy" game than M2E. All voices about Malifaux 1.5 have only one purpose IMO: to show that Followers of Malifaux 1.5 still exists, want to still play Malifaux 1.5 or even further develop Malifaux 1.5.

There is no place for hate - only for personal opinions.

Edited July 24, 2013 by caen

[Duck21]

Maybe there wouldn’t be so much negativity if competitive gamers on this forum didn’t tell people to shut up and leave so often.

[bobzilla]

I don't care if you don't like the game. It is too late to make changes. The book and the cards are at the printer. Expressing distaste in these forums is unproductive at best and damaging to the game and the community at worst.

So all those threads about how this is broken or that model is OP over the last two years are out of place? Just because something is set in stone right now doesn't mean it won't can't be errataed at a later date. If people are basically being told "If you haven't anything nice to say then don't say anything at all" what's the point in this place?

Critisism has it's place at all stages of the game. Not just in the development stages. It has to be backed up though just as over the top enthusism has to be based on something that can be explained and discussed.

[Baffo]

As it was mentioned before, this is an edition change, it has always been like this in all game systems I know.

In general people fear/dislike change in things they are accustomed to or heavily invested into. That is usually the main drive for the early cries of 'Doom and gloom'.

Looking at M2e specifically, we are likely going to keep hearing dissenting opinions about the edition change for a while, with peaks in 'gamer's rage' right after Gencon (since then we'll see the first batch of finalized rules' and everybody will be nitpicking on minute details that did/didn't change in the final closed playtesting between the end of the open beta and release) and as soon as Wave 2 of the Beta will launch (since there everybody will see how the rest of their models changed for the first time).

In my 20 years of wargaming experience I've seen this cycle at absolutely every edition change. A few times I was among the doom sayers and quit the game in question, others I was unhappy with the changes but sticked with the system and got used to the change and in other cases I have been in the happy camp from the start. For practical examples: I rage quit WH fantasy and 40k in the latest edition changes, since I felt the changes made the games a glorified expensive variant of Risk, while in the Warmachine and Malifaux transitions to their 2nd editions I was happier with the changes and the way the companies handled/comunicated with their comunity so I stuck with these.

That said the impact of negative opinions on the internet about an edition change is in my opinion mostly dependent on how big your gaming community is: if you have 20 regular players and 4 rage quit the system, there isn't much of an impact, so you really should not be bothered by anything anybody is saying on the web; if on the other hand you have 3-4 regular players and 1-2 of them rage quit and newer players or players still on the fence get influenced by an overabundance of negative opinions, the system overall (both the old and the newer edition) might die out in your area regardless of you opinion on the matter...

[PierceSternum]

I loved Mechwarrior2 on PC. Played it and netmech for years.

I did not like Mech3 demo's so I did not buy it.

I do not feel like I rage quit Mechwarrior.

But I did explain all the things I did not like about it regularly at their old forums. Actually, a number of us did. (My old clan. I guess we were negative vibes...)

And Mech4 EXCEEDED our hopes and we played THAT for years.

Tomato, tomato.

[Duck21]

I loved Mechwarrior2 on PC. Played it and netmech for years.

I did not like Mech3 demo's so I did not buy it.

I do not feel like I rage quit Mechwarrior.

But I did explain all the things I did not like about it regularly at their old forums. Actually, a number of us did. (My old clan. I guess we were negative vibes...)

And Mech4 EXCEEDED our hopes and we played THAT for years.

Tomato, tomato.

So you saying we should wait till Malifaux 3rd edition.

[Jonasty]

Going with the classic as it sums it up nicely.

"Opinions are like a$$holes. Everybody's got one and everyone thinks everyone else's stinks."

[PierceSternum]

So you saying we should wait till Malifaux 3rd edition.

I am saying that people ought to continue saying what they dislike in the hopes they can influence the future.

[Cunning]

Going with the classic as it sums it up nicely.

"Opinions are like a$$holes. Everybody's got one and everyone thinks everyone else's stinks."

Speaking from experience I can tell you that this is not true.

[Soul Puppet]

I think the 'negativity' does serve a purpose.

Wyrd have created a fantastic world and a superb game system set in it, which has instilled a great deal of passion in much of its fan base.

The time has come to change that game system. Wyrd have taken on board a lot of what has been said over the last few years and have even opened up a public beta in order to try and improve the game, both in terms of keeping their existing fan base happy and also growing the business by broadening its appeal. The first part may sound easy but in combination with the second it can be quite the balancing act. We all know that you can’t keep all of the people happy all of the time right?

Any change on this scale will inevitably cause differences in opinions and people that are passionate about the changes have every right to express their opinion, whether they are proponents of the changes or not. The fact that the book (and cards) are already en route to the printers doesn’t mean people should shut up and stop talking about it. This forum has had some healthy debates over the years, this isn’t any different. Nor should it be.

If there were no ‘negativity’ there would be no passion and if there were no passion, then what a dull world it would be. Some people are worried that the negative opinions will drive some existing players, as well as many potential new players, away from the game. Well, I am an existing player who very much loves M1.5 and I don’t feel in any way influenced to quit without trying M2E out for myself and giving it a decent chance. Even though some of the people expressing the negativity are equivalent to celebrity status in the scene, in general I think people will make their own minds up either way.

Also remember, there is no such thing as bad publicity.

[Jonasty]

Speaking from experience I can tell you that this is not true.

You've met someone who doesn't have one?! How do they use the bathroom? *grin*

---------- Post added at 10:52 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:39 AM ----------

As a more serious contribution to the thread, the only real issue I've had/seen with regards to the negativity is just in some of the presentation of it.

Edition changes happen and people will be unhappy about it. That's the way of the world. There were probably some cavemen hold outs who thought "What's with this move to fire, I like my meat cold and raw. It's worked that way for years, why do we need to go messing with it." (This is IN NO WAY trying to describe those who don't like the switch to M2E, I'm not calling you cavemen. Not attempting to start a flame war, it's just an overly simplified example.)

The issue with some of the negativity is how personal it becomes and how quickly it does this. During the open Beta there were some very positive changes that came about due to someone's negative feedback that was given in a way as to be constructive. A rational discussion was had and things were fine, whether an actual change occurred or not.

The problems arise when it's a post of anger filled definitive statements that don't help contribute to the community discussions. And this isn't just the folks who dislike the new edition. There have also been plenty of proponents of M2E that are quick to start screaming at someone, even if the original "negative" feedback was given in a very calm and rational way simply because they don't agree.

It's hard because there is a lot of passion involved with the game but it needs to be remembered that it is just a game. At the end of the day we're all here to have fun. If my fun is different than your fun there's no need to suddenly have it become a Hatfield/McCoy scenario. We just have different kinds of fun.

[Boon]

@ Soul Puppet: Nicely said. I really think this is a place to tell Wyrd what we think.

Or do we want to start a community were everybody agrees (might sound like heaven for some people but would be hell for me )? Then we won't have development. Or do we want to go further and denounce everybody that speaks/writes critically?

I am pretty sure, or at least I hope, that this was never the intention of people here. But from following the forum I get the feeling. And as a new player, I would be more scared by the way people started communicating recently here then by the critics (btw most said try for your self and see).

I was completely happy with the last version of the beta but I will try M2E and than make up my mind.

Edited July 24, 2013 by Boon

[Bacms]

I agree with most of what have been said in this thread.

I don't see any problem with people expressing different opinions about the same subject. I don't even mind some of the heated arguments due to the human nature of all of us around this forum (at least as long as I know). The problem mainly arises when people post different opinions and the answer to that is you are stupid and are clearly wrong and that makes you a very bad person.

Discussion about the changes of the game can only make it improve. After all the game v1.5 is probably better now that it was on the v1.0. The new edition brings massive changes to that and has with any chance people tend to prefer one thing or the other. There is not normally a better one that dooms all the other ones. Just different ones and reaching one that pleases the majority is always complicated. It is up to the game developers to decide whether the points raised are fair or not and improve the game where it is needed. But at the end of the day it is just that, a game if it is not for you unfortunately you will have to throw away all the investment you made on it. But no company will keep one version forever and so what goes around comes back around and I am sure we will see some changes enduring and some changes being rolled back to what it was before.