Losing players fast!

[Tuttleboy]

M:TG is obviously the CCG that sets the standard. The first time I played the game was during unlimited, but then got interested in goofy stuff like Hyborian Gates, On the Edge, and Galactic Empires. I got back into M:TG big time 10 years ago and was buying a box with each new release. The game is so solid, but so expensive its crazy to stay in the current format. I loved the game, but am done with deck building.

Last time I got out of M:TG I sold my collection and made my house payment with it.

[Mack.Martin]

Oh yeah, Jyhad was excellent.

I have a box of unopened original release Jyhad starters. I have this dream that one day I can get players over for pizza and a starter deck game. Just play with ONLY the cards in those boxes, and then trade after games, and leave them at my place.

I have accepted, however, that this is a pipe dream.

A man has to dream though.

[Alviaran]

I am another cardboard crack addict. I have a problem. I've quit Magic three times now. I think. Maybe four. I quit and then decided to just do a midnight release of Gatecrash (hey, I've been out for a few years but sealed formats are ok right?). Really rusty. Got out my Netrunner and played a game with my buddy in between rounds. I knew right then and there I was done with Magic for good this time. I've been selling my more expensive cards. Netrunner is my source of cardboard crack now.

I never got to play a lot of the big ones people speak so highly of back in the day. My friends were reminiscing over Rage and Jihad a few months ago. They are both in their 30s though, a bit older than me, so I think they were able to get into a lot more than I was.

It really is like my time with WoW though. I speak of these times with CCGs as if a recovering alcoholic. I have a problem.

As to the OP (does anyone even remember that?), I'd say wait and see the public beta. See the game. Locally, we have more people interested with the 2nd edition announced. I'm more excited about Malifaux now than I have been in a long time. I cannot wait to see where this crazy train goes. And I trust Wyrd is going to do it right. I learned a long time ago to trust the companies I love before I jump to conclusions. I saw it time and again in Warmachine that every new big release was going to destroy the game. People called it. The PP forums even have a joke for it called the Doom Cycle. None of their big releases have ruined the game yet. So now when a big release is announced, I am at worst cautiously optimistic. Book 4 gave my confidence in Wyrd to be moving in the right direction. I look forward to seeing what they go.

The other thing is I think the number of people who will be turned off is a very, very select few who see the game as perfect (I strongly feel it isn't), are really in love with the current system (I'm not), etc. The number who will adapt and prefer the new system, the number of new players who will be brought in, etc. is likely to be far, far greater. That kind of growth of the game is healthy. Provided that Wyrd treats the new and old players right (ie, not how GW treats people once they have actually paid in), it can only be healthy.

The sad truth is that any edition change is going to shed some players. Some will always love the old version better. It's inevitable. But sometimes, losing those players for the health of the game and community is better. I hope we lose as few as possible. I hope people come around. If they don't, well...that's that.

I have a box of unopened original release Jyhad starters. I have this dream that one day I can get players over for pizza and a starter deck game. Just play with ONLY the cards in those boxes, and then trade after games, and leave them at my place.

I have accepted, however, that this is a pipe dream.

A man has to dream though.

If you weren't multiple states apart, I'd invite myself over. Sounds like fun!

[nilus]

I'm sad that I was too young in the 90s to be able to afford the various, excellent CCGs that were created..

Dont be to sad, for every one good(or at least fun) CCG that came out in the 90s there was about 50 terrible magic clones out there.

The fact that a 200 year old tree in the Amazon was probably cut down to make a print run of Wyvern cards is a sad thought.

That being said CCG I played and enjoyed

L5R - Still my first love and the only CCG I actually sunk money into. Although I do have some bitter memories of it(Stupid rollling thunder distribution)

Shadowrun - A fun game that one got one expansion. Was written in that interesting time where Fasa still wasn't sure if Shadowrun was suppose to be serious, thought provoking mixed genre game or if it was suppose to be wacky. So you had a lot of cool guys with guns, magic and cyberware. But then you also had a card that would send an entire runner team home with diarrhea(thus failing the run)

Rage - This one I got into after it had stopped being made, which was good. Since I got a lot of cards very very cheap. I still have several card boxes full of the original sets and the Wyrm sets. The couple sets after that are much more rare so even between my friends we covet them. Its the only CCG I still play at least once a year(usually in a 4+ person free for all multiplayer game that goes like 5 hours)

AvP - Probably the first game that had 3 very distinct play styles and win conditions. It was really cool the way you either played a horde of Aliens, a 4 man Marine team, or just a lone predator hunting everyone. Also was one of the few CCGs that had more then two players in mind when written(3 in this case) and it worked well. In fact, I find the game less fun unless you have all three sides involved. There was one expansion that added a 4 faction(criminals, based of the guys from Aliens:Ressurection) but I never got those cards.

So yeah CCGs are great! So is Malifaux! So is Spartacus! So is Smash Up! So is Zombicide! So are a ton of games, lets play them all!

[Forar]

I have a box of unopened original release Jyhad starters. I have this dream that one day I can get players over for pizza and a starter deck game. Just play with ONLY the cards in those boxes, and then trade after games, and leave them at my place.

I have accepted, however, that this is a pipe dream.

A man has to dream though.

I have a handful of sealed 4th Edition MtG starters and some sealed boosters from sets around that time (Ice Age, Homelands, Chronicles, Alliances, Fallen Empires, etc) and have always kind of wanted to do the same thing.

And while Magic can certainly have a 'pay to win' aspect, there are ways to mitigate this. One is by playing some of the variant gameplay types. A newer one (that's now officially supported) is called "Elder Dragon Highlander", or EDH. 99 card deck, no more than 1 of any card other than basic land, and 1 extra card that has to be a legend. Deck cannot contain colours that are not found on the Commander's card, so deck building is generally based around the commander's theme (such as tribal decks like elves or goblins or whatever) or mechanics (such as commanders that do well with lots of artifacts or enchantments or extra lands, etc).

Now, obviously you can still drop $Texas on those 100 cards, but the need to only have one of a given card in a deck can make things really interesting. Rather than just finding the 9 best cards for your deck and loading up 4 of each for raw consistency, you end up with a lot of design space to work in, including using cards that 'regular' play might find sub-optimal.

Oh, EDH is also a primarily multiplayer variant, which means that beyond the game itself is a political metagame, where people strive to be dangerous enough to not be worth dealing with, but not so dangerous that it prompts the other players to jump them as a team of necessity.

As the best funded player in my group, I'd often happily loan out some of my decks, so people could have a little more variety in what they played without having to drop a big pile of cash on the endeavor, and so they could see what it was like from the other side of the cards. Much like facing particularly nasty Malifaux crews, it can be enlightening to see just how a well tuned deck plays out, how tough some of those calls can be, etc.

[Sybaris]

Ah yes...CCGs

I've heavily modified RAGE ccg (got all the cards) to make it more deep (enemies spawning in the middle rather than being played by players, choosing a tribe rather than min-maxing, etc). It had such a success that we played each week (3-4 players) for over 3 years, and stopped only because people moved away.

Had Vampire:the eternal struggle too back then, but at a point it became too competitive, so i've dropped that. I also completed the Arcadia CCG collection, but it's not easy to play with the whole map set up (i know it's not supposed to be played like that). So as you may infer, i loved the old world of darkness settings and game. For some reason magic the gathering never appealed to me.

Warhammer invasion LCG is quite good atm if played for fun (love the fact they now give you 3 samples of each card, so you don't need to buy more), and i do believe the Game of thrones one is good too, but i can't allow another LCG to clog my house (which is already getting full with all my hobbies).

---

Boad games favorites:

Blood Bowl (tops it all), Malifaux, Warzone 1st edition (if you could play casually, almost like a tabletop rpg), Warhammer 40k 2nd edition, Space Hulk.

As far as more family games, i like A game of thrones and Ticket to ride from FFG.

Edited May 31, 2013 by Sybaris

[Sevorin]

The fact that a 200 year old tree in the Amazon was probably cut down to make a print run of Wyvern cards is a sad thought.

L5R - Still my first love and the only CCG I actually sunk money into. Although I do have some bitter memories of it(Stupid rollling thunder distribution)

LOL, Wyvern. Man I forgot about that one. I actually bought a box of cards for that game, then tried to play it. Ugh.

L5R- Crimson and Jade run...ugh!

---------- Post added at 10:04 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:04 AM ----------

I have a box of unopened original release Jyhad starters. I have this dream that one day I can get players over for pizza and a starter deck game. Just play with ONLY the cards in those boxes, and then trade after games, and leave them at my place.

I have accepted, however, that this is a pipe dream.

A man has to dream though.

I'm down. Too bad you are so far away. Loved that game.

[ttsgosadow]

Suprised noone mentioned Middle Earth: The Wizards card game. Damn, that was fun! Not the silly LoTR card game they recently made. Had loads of fun running around as a Nazgul gathering weapons for my orks and trolls and kill some wizards.

The Nazguls are Abroad!

Recently people been bringing the game to the club again.

Also played L5R CCG when it came out. Really loved it. Lions rule! The new rules/edition arent as fun, imo.

Played Netrunning when it was a CCG, that's quite a while ago though. Am not sure if I want to pick up the new one. Heard good stories about it, though. Just that I dont really have spare time left to also play that game.

Bet we have the same nostalgic memories of certain RPG's. Now I would love to get my hands on the Malifaux RPG. Currently playing GURPS. Had tons of fun with Paranoia

Happiness is mandatory!

[rcat]

Ah the glory days of the CCG. What ever did I play?

MtG, L5R, Wyvern (shocking), Shadowrun, AvP, Battletech, Doomtown Doomtown Doomtown, Star Wars (Decipher - until somewhere around Endor...), Star Trek (also decipher. Ironically indecipherable), WWE Raw Deal, Rage, Young Jedi (terrible), WH40k CCG.

I played Star Wars and Doomtown the most I think.

But the best games have to be Netrunner (have picked up new edition, just not played it yet), and Babylon 5 - Best 5+ player CCG around.

Of course, I layer a Human Babylon 5 Peace deck - suddenly people realised what I was doing and rushed to start a bloody war.

Next game I brought the League of Non Aligned Worlds. Much like the real UNIT, I pretty must just screwed up everyone else's plans all day.

(Note of caution - a "quick" game of B5 was at least four hours)

[Demonthresis]

(Note of caution - a "quick" game of B5 was at least four hours)

Oh Babylon 5. Being my favorite Sci-Fi show of all time, I drooled every time I saw that card game being played. I won't make anyone here feel old by saying how young I was when the game was played, but it was one I always wanted to get into. I've always been tempted to pick up any B5 products when I see them for sale, but I never know if they're good or if I have people to play with.

[Clevelander]

This thread got me to dust off my old issues of Inquest. The mid 90s provided a proliferation of CCGs(and thanks to the lawsuits, LCGs). We took the good with the bad.

Anyone else remember shedding tears of laughter while reading the Ultimate Chaos Game? A multiplayer chaos game of Magic: The Gathering, UNO, Illuminati, Star Trek: TNG, Dixie, Jyhad, Spellfire, and Super Deck!.

[Noir]

Thanks, now I miss Inquest! But yeah, I definitely remember the Ultimate Chaos Game!

[tadaka]

Rage best ccg I have ever played so much fun and aptly named. Nothing will **** you off faster then your rank 10 geting rent asunder and dieing in 1 hit. I Doubt it but would so love to see this come back as a LCG. A lot of people were ****ed off when White Wolf caned this one. They even said it was not that it was unfrofitable they just did not want to be involved in the CCGs any more. The remake was a joke tho.

L5R was a great game right untill the back change thing.

New netrunner has mostly killed Malifaux for me. Once 2.0 beta is released I will be looking in to it with hope tho. I do got to say wyrd should realy hold it off a year. 2.0 is going to be a huge deal for the game. I have done some wyrd beta in the past that I felt was rushed for the deadline of gen con and IMHO avatars show what happens when you rush for a deadline and put out a product that is not ready. I hope they prove my issues are off and they put out a great product.

[HalcyonSeraph]

Rage best ccg I have ever played so much fun and aptly named. Nothing will **** you off faster then your rank 10 geting rent asunder and dieing in 1 hit. I Doubt it but would so love to see this come back as a LCG. A lot of people were ****ed off when White Wolf caned this one. They even said it was not that it was unfrofitable they just did not want to be involved in the CCGs any more. The remake was a joke tho.

L5R was a great game right untill the back change thing.

New netrunner has mostly killed Malifaux for me. Once 2.0 beta is released I will be looking in to it with hope tho. I do got to say wyrd should realy hold it off a year. 2.0 is going to be a huge deal for the game. I have done some wyrd beta in the past that I felt was rushed for the deadline of gen con and IMHO avatars show what happens when you rush for a deadline and put out a product that is not ready. I hope they prove my issues are off and they put out a great product.

You know they've been working on 2.0 since LAST Gencon, right? It's not like they just started when they announced it.

[tadaka]

I do know, and i think they need another year. Wyrd has put out a book a year so far. Lets look at how it has done.

Book 2 has major balance issues. I cant imagine any one out there thinking book 2 was balanced with book 1 models. Book 3, avatars imho dont work well. I think wyrd itself has been unhappy with avatars. Other models in book are not bad but Avatars was book 3 flag ship. Book 4 was well done I will give you that. That being said it was also the smallest book to date.

Now they are trying to put out a new version of the game. Ya I think they need more time. Hell they are giving us a beta test in june that needs to go to printers and back before the end of august. I have been in a wyrd beta and watched the results. I love wyrd but they rush things out the door for the gen con deadline.

[Forar]

Everyone I knew loved Scrye, but Inquest was always my magazine of choice. I never traded heavily so pricing didn't mean much to me, I just enjoyed the articles, previews, and Magic: The Puzzling bits.

[DarcXON]

wow This devolve quickly into mocking the OP and lets just talk about Netrunner. Well done guys >.>

[Mehter]

That backing change in l5r happened ages ago. The past few arcs have been pretty fantastic. The current one is a bit power heavy, but they're slowing the game down a bit at the end of the year.

[Sevorin]

wow This devolve quickly into mocking the OP and lets just talk about Netrunner. Well done guys >.>

The OP's concerns were addressed, and since he mentioned playing Netrunner, that is where the conversation went.

[Fetid Strumpet]

+ a 5 of a Kind.

*Jackalope Stampede!*

Oh noes! My Cards!

[Clevelander]

wow This devolve quickly into mocking the OP and lets just talk about Netrunner. Well done guys >.>

I considered it evolution, rather than devolution. I think its great that we extracted some enjoyable banter out of the OPs sobbing.

[DeusInnomen]

I considered it evolution, rather than devolution. I think its great that we extracted some enjoyable banter out of the OPs sobbing.

This. Honestly, I'll gladly hear everyone's opinions AFTER they see the beta test rules. Before that, it's just conjecture and panic and anticipation. I'd rather folks read the rules, try playing it a bit, and then if they still hate it I'll totally respect that.

[kaffis]

And I will for reals be at GenCon with my Netrunner stuff, so if any of you want a real easy win, come find me for a game.

If you want a challenge, talk Tuesday into a game and play against her Haas-Bioroid deck.

I'll have my cards there, too. Anybody else playing in the big Android: Netrunner Tournament on Friday?

I should try Net Runner out..Maybe at Gencon.

Do it. I think FFG will be running a pretty aggressive demo schedule, or don't be shy about finding some folks playing pickup games and asking to learn. I'm usually pretty happy to teach.

Okay so this thread is making me feel like a chump for picking up the Star Wars LCG instead of Netrunner.

Star Wars LCG is a fun game in its own right, but the masterful theme blending with gameplay in Netrunner grabs me more. Star Wars LCG abstracts a lot of stuff, and while it results in interesting mechanics that can yield surprising strategy and depth, they don't compel me and get my adrenaline pumping as much as a big blind run on an advanced server...

Of course, there's a flip side to that, too -- the Decipher CCG had gobs of theme and managed to abstract very little of the stuff that the LCG gets criticism for... and it was a bloated mess of unwieldy gameplay as a result. Tons of cool concepts, but each expansion just tossed new stuff in with the kitchen sink and so you'd end up with opponents essentially not even prepared to play the same game. Most of the cool thematic elements were really prone to lucky card draw, too.

The Star Wars LCG deckbuilding mechanic fascinates me, though -- I wish I had more opponents locally so I could fiddle with it more. As is, I think I've only gotten around half a dozen games in.

[Mehter]

I just think Star Wars tries to do too much with a limited card pool. In a year or so I imagine it'll be good.

For example, I went to a regional tournament a month or so ago, with 20+ people there. All but 18 had the same Light/Dark deck down to the card, which means the tournie pretty much just came down to who drew what when. (Light Side was Han with jedi attachments, and Dark was just Sith spam)

I was the only one trying to make Boba Fett work, heh.

Edited May 31, 2013 by Mehter

[fritz the cat]

sadly, the community at my shop has been nonexistant since october. from 4-5 games going all day every game night, to maybe 1 game a week...if that.

the news of 2.0 has been mostly met with shrugs. People do have their eye on how it turns out and it may entice some people to play if its good. Most people are in a wait and see mode though