Free M2E stats cards in pdf format are worth fighting for .. don’t You think so?

[Math Mathonwy]

Seriously?? How about because it costs a great deal of time and money to not only develop a revamped set of rules but to rebalance and modify every model for those new rules. That is not a trivial cost. Providing rules errata to fix and correct what is broken is one thing, to provide free rules for every model is an entirely different situation. The two cases are not equal.

So you believe that Wyrd is going to make loads of cash out of those card packs? That the sales of the card packs will cover the costs of balancing the models and writing the new rules?

Wyrd is certainly aware that their customers would like things for free. Everyone likes free things. Wyrd could ship product to give out free stater boxes to everyone at stores if a potential customer asked about Malifaux, that doesn't make it a good business decision. Those arguing for things for free, and that it would help their business could be 100% right, but without, as I said before, the data, training, and personal financial risk associated with such a decision, your arguments don't hold weight, one way or the other.

What is the risk? People proxying the minis? Because other than that, I really don't see what it could be. I very, very much doubt that Wyrd is going to be making a lot of money out of those card packs. In fact, I feel it somewhat likely that they will actually sell them basically at cost. Or even lower!

Edit: I will, btw, most likely end up buying the card packs. But I would still like the free PDFs.

[HalcyonSeraph]

So you believe that Wyrd is going to make loads of cash out of those card packs? That the sales of the card packs will cover the costs of balancing the models and writing the new rules?

What is the risk? People proxying the minis? Because other than that, I really don't see what it could be. I very, very much doubt that Wyrd is going to be making a lot of money out of those card packs. In fact, I feel it somewhat likely that they will actually sell them basically at cost. Or even lower!

They're going to make some profit overall from selling V2 related stuff, including the books, the cards, new models, etc. We have no way of knowing which if any of those are loss leaders or the like.

The risk is that you are releasing a new edition of a game for which the vast majority of your playerbase already owns the models, and if you give away the new edition for free then they have no impetus to buy ANYTHING from you, and you will not make any money. And you won't survive as a company if you habitually make decisions that result in you not making money.

It sounds great to say "Oh, if the cards were free I could just transition to V2 without spending a dime!" but then when you realize that the company would fold if all their customers did the same thing, it's not so great an idea for the long term survival of the game.

[Tokaji]

My only concern is whether or not it's affordable. I don't want PDF's, I'd rather have the cards, but I don't want the cards to cost $20 bucks a pack - that's $140 bucks for everything. The nice thing about Malifaux is that compared to other mini games, it's cheap to get into.

This also ties into - and I don't know if this has been discussed or not - whether the cards are still going to come with the models. Because if they don't, I hope they drop the prices for the models a few bucks accordingly.

[HalcyonSeraph]

My only concern is whether or not it's affordable. I don't want PDF's, I'd rather have the cards, but I don't want the cards to cost $20 bucks a pack - that's $140 bucks for everything. The nice thing about Malifaux is that compared to other mini games, it's cheap to get into.

This also ties into - and I don't know if this has been discussed or not - whether the cards are still going to come with the models. Because if they don't, I hope they drop the prices for the models a few bucks accordingly.

The cards will 100% guaranteed still come with models. The card packs are for people who already have models and want the new cards to go with them.

[Fetid Strumpet]

Or want the cards for their conversions if they don't want to buy the actual models.

[Math Mathonwy]

They're going to make some profit overall from selling V2 related stuff, including the books, the cards, new models, etc. We have no way of knowing which if any of those are loss leaders or the like.

The risk is that you are releasing a new edition of a game for which the vast majority of your playerbase already owns the models, and if you give away the new edition for free then they have no impetus to buy ANYTHING from you, and you will not make any money. And you won't survive as a company if you habitually make decisions that result in you not making money.

It sounds great to say "Oh, if the cards were free I could just transition to V2 without spending a dime!" but then when you realize that the company would fold if all their customers did the same thing, it's not so great an idea for the long term survival of the game.

So, just to recap and make sure I understood correctly, you honestly think that Wyrd really is going to be making fat loads of cash out of those card packs?

Or want the cards for their conversions if they don't want to buy the actual models.

So you really are afraid of proxying? Interesting. That is, IMO, a more reasonable opinion than Wyrd making a lot of money out of the cards but I still feel it's a bit... non-likely? But fair enough, maybe that is a real chance of things going horribly wrong and a lot of people suddenly start proxying like mad. Out of interest, have you seen lots of proxies for the models whose v2 cards are available on Wyrd's site?

[Fetid Strumpet]

I was referring to the policy of requiring the official card for tournaments, Math.

It would allow a person to get the official card without having to buy the model, and if it was a conversion, still be able to use it at an event.

[decker_cky]

What is the risk? People proxying the minis? Because other than that, I really don't see what it could be. I very, very much doubt that Wyrd is going to be making a lot of money out of those card packs. In fact, I feel it somewhat likely that they will actually sell them basically at cost. Or even lower!

Edit: I will, btw, most likely end up buying the card packs. But I would still like the free PDFs.

I don't even think the risk is a material risk between the two styles for proxying. Let's assume a faction deck is $20 and has a $15 profit (I don't think people would tolerate them being that expensive, but let's assume Wyrd makes some money from them). That means that the difference for someone proxying an entire faction is $15 profit for Wyrd - something, but pretty small in the scheme of things. By offering faction packs, Wyrd already is making proxying much more easy.

BTW, I was in the group of people enticed to get in the game by reading the current free PDFs, and I've probably spent $4-500 in the past year because of that. Wyrd benefits considerably by Malifaux being a low entry level game (rules + starter for $50-60) with a high spending encouraged (because of how strats/schemes work). I even got bought a starter (by an out of town friend), but probably would have just painted hose models and been done if there wasn't the free online rulebook and free online stat cards to encourage me to look further into the game.

[HalcyonSeraph]

So, just to recap and make sure I understood correctly, you honestly think that Wyrd really is going to be making fat loads of cash out of those card packs?

No, that's not what I said. But the cards are part of a release on which they expect to make some money, yes. Removing them from the equation by giving them out for free would lower that profit.

So you really are afraid of proxying? Interesting. That is, IMO, a more reasonable opinion than Wyrd making a lot of money out of the cards but I still feel it's a bit... non-likely? But fair enough, maybe that is a real chance of things going horribly wrong and a lot of people suddenly start proxying like mad. Out of interest, have you seen lots of proxies for the models whose v2 cards are available on Wyrd's site?

No one is afraid of proxying. FS was just giving another example of who the cards are for, to allay the fears of another poster that thought cards might no longer come with models, which is not the case.

I have some proxies, either for models that I have been using before the real model came out (like the Blessed of December), or for models who I just don't like the look of (like aMarcus or the Mature Nephilim). No one thinks that will put a serious dent in Wyrd's pocketbook.

[Forar]

The way I see it, there is some give and take here.

Wyrd has a vested interest in people buying their products. Creating, producing and distributing tens/hundreds of thousands of cards would have a massive cost associated. If the cards are available for free in their entirety, some people may feel inclined to buy fewer models and proxy.

Most of the players are going to have limits on their disposable income. The need for at least 2 books, 1-2+ decks, possibly sleeves or laminating pouches for those cards, and whatever other materials in order to advance to 2.0 will likely be a significant sum. There will be disparities with different stores getting the books/cards at different times, some may run out, some people (as we've seen in the Gencon threads) may not have a conveniently available local store, and even with a retail/online discount, some may struggle just to keep up.

Should Wyrd give up a sizable portion of their Intellectual Property for free? Should the fans bear those costs to keep up without reservation? Is this situation purely black and white? Not really. It's a symbiotic exchange; we enjoy the products they make and wish for them to continue to do so, which requires financing. They wish to remain in business, and to appeal to as wide an audience as possible. Both sides have power and responsibilities, and I think it's dismissive to simply handwave away the concerns of either, which I think some are drifting a bit close to in making their points.

I'm not ignorant of the complexity and costs of such an undertaking, even with the benefit of working with an economy of scale benefit.

I'm also not without other financial responsibilities, meaning I do have to weigh things like dropping $50 or $100 on 2.0 product versus keeping that cash and just running 1.5 for the rest of my days. Or even simply hybrid'ing in the parts my group like (new strats and schemes sound great and system agnostic, at least the way they've been described).

Anyway, I'm simply advocating that people try to keep in mind that this is going to be a massive change and simple, easy sound bite answers aren't necessarily going to cover all the particulars of a given situation.

And personally, I like both options. With pdfs I can start re-learning my entire faction, and with the cards I can play as I like, with them on the table and being marked for wounds and status adjustments where everyone can see. Assuming a reasonable cost I'm probably far more likely to buy a quality reprint (plastic, doooo eeeeet!) over printing some off, likely at a similar cost in materials, time and frustration getting it right.

It doesn't have to be strictly either/or, like the views, desires and realities of the change in general, there are a lot of angles involved and it's not unreasonable to desire to be brought up to speed swiftly and digitally while the realities of the transitional period may take a little longer to cement. I mean, that's already being accounted for in the extra months 1.5 will remain tournament legal, so it's not like it's an issue that's been overlooked or ignored.

[HalcyonSeraph]

I don't even think the risk is a material risk between the two styles for proxying. Let's assume a faction deck is $20 and has a $15 profit (I don't think people would tolerate them being that expensive, but let's assume Wyrd makes some money from them). That means that the difference for someone proxying an entire faction is $15 profit for Wyrd - something, but pretty small in the scheme of things. By offering faction packs, Wyrd already is making proxying much more easy.

BTW, I was in the group of people enticed to get in the game by reading the current free PDFs, and I've probably spent $4-500 in the past year because of that. Wyrd benefits considerably by Malifaux being a low entry level game (rules + starter for $50-60) with a high spending encouraged (because of how strats/schemes work). I even got bought a starter (by an out of town friend), but probably would have just painted hose models and been done if there wasn't the free online rulebook and free online stat cards to encourage me to look further into the game.

Again, the card decks are mainly for people with collections already, for whom the entry cost of the game is long since past relevant. The entry cost for new players, who will be buying models that come with V2 cards and thus won't need the decks, will remain very low.

Remember that they have said that every master is getting a resculpt/rerelease, and "a lot" of those will be available by GenCon, so there won't be a long period where new players are just blindly buying V1 models and not knowing what to do.

[Malovane]

So you believe that Wyrd is going to make loads of cash out of those card packs? That the sales of the card packs will cover the costs of balancing the models and writing the new rules?

Its not about making loads of cash or covering the entire cost of development - its about offsetting that cost. Making existing customers buy the faction decks for stat/upgrade cards rather than giving them away free does that. Between the rule book, faction decks, and new starters - spread between returning players and the attraction of new customers - wyrd needs to cover its development cost, as well as, cover the cost of post-release support - errata and such - and profit enough to warrant continued and expanded development of their product lines. That's how we start to see new products like Puppet Wars and Malifaux rpg and so on.

In general, as a gross simplification, I would say selling the new rulebook covers the development of the core rule set. Selling new starters covers the cost of retooling and resculpting them in plastic. Selling faction decks covers the cost of redesigning stat card and creating upgrade cards for each model.

I just find it unreasonable to expect or demand free pdfs for M2E. I've got 7 factions to potentially update. I can do that as quickly or as slowly as I desire. If my budget is so tight that I can't afford updating all 7 at once, I'm probably involved in the wrong hobby, but I can still start with just the core rules and the faction deck of my most numerous faction. Honestly, the cost of potentially updating all 7 is fairly trivial in the grand scheme compared to my existing investment of time and money in Malifaux. For me, retaining the functionality of my full Malifaux collection will be less than the cost (time & money) of jumping to a new game. Free pdfs for everything would be great, but I just don't think its a reasonable expectation.

[Math Mathonwy]

No, that's not what I said. But the cards are part of a release on which they expect to make some money, yes. Removing them from the equation by giving them out for free would lower that profit.

Well, the way I see it, either they make considerable money from them or they don't. I very much believe that they won't because 1) they haven't in the past, 2) they said that the card packs would be very affordable, and 3) no one else in the business seems to make real money from the cards (I have quite some knowledge about the inner workings of the minis business, though I don't claim any inside information on the workings of Wyrd, so maybe they're a special case and somehow all these dozens of people opposed to the free PDFs somehow know it - who knows).

No one is afraid of proxying. FS was just giving another example of who the cards are for, to allay the fears of another poster that thought cards might no longer come with models, which is not the case.

I have some proxies, either for models that I have been using before the real model came out (like the Blessed of December), or for models who I just don't like the look of (like aMarcus or the Mature Nephilim). No one thinks that will put a serious dent in Wyrd's pocketbook.

OK, so the only argument against releasing the PDFs for free is because people think that Wyrd is going to make substantial profit out of the card packs. Fair enough, I can't prove it either way, but I just feel that it is very silly belief due to the three facts I outlined above.

---------- Post added at 10:06 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:02 PM ----------

In general, as a gross simplification, I would say selling the new rulebook covers the development of the core rule set. Selling new starters covers the cost of retooling and resculpting them in plastic. Selling faction decks covers the cost of redesigning stat card and creating upgrade cards for each model.

Two out of three of those suppositions are extremely unlikely based on what I know of other companies in the business. And I do mean extremely.

Seriously, minis games companies make their money out of the minis. No, not 100% of it, some high percentage.

Or do you have some better insight?

[HalcyonSeraph]

Well, the way I see it, either they make considerable money from them or they don't. I very much believe that they won't because 1) they haven't in the past, 2) they said that the card packs would be very affordable, and 3) no one else in the business seems to make real money from the cards (I have quite some knowledge about the inner workings of the minis business, though I don't claim any inside information on the workings of Wyrd, so maybe they're a special case and somehow all these dozens of people opposed to the free PDFs somehow know it - who knows).

OK, so the only argument against releasing the PDFs for free is because people think that Wyrd is going to make substantial profit out of the card packs. Fair enough, I can't prove it either way, but I just feel that it is very silly belief due to the three facts I outlined above.

This is the third time that someone has explained what they mean and the third time you have gone "oh well I guess you mean they are making fat stacks of cash on the cards" and no one has said that. Stop.

"Considerable money" and "lots of money" are relative terms that mean nothing. They will make money off the cards, yes. We don't know how much, but we know it will be more money than if they GAVE THEM AWAY FOR FREE. I don't think this is a difficult concept to grasp. There's a lot of middle ground between "No money at all" and "Lots and lots of money" and so it's not one or the other.

The cards are part of a release that includes books, cards, new sculpts of older models, and completely new models. None of us knows the exact percentages of what costs what or how much profit each makes or what their costs were to design and produce those things, so none of us is qualified to say whether or not the cards are a vital part of their business plan. But we can all say that selling something makes you more money than giving it away for free.

[caen]

I have started this topic because I believe that if You want something You have to fight for it. I don’t know that the target will be accomplished. I am prepared to lose badly.

But I had to try … I felt obliged to try.

We have the examples that rules and stats can be free (Infinity and some other games) … we have also examples that we have to pay for new edition.

Lots of arguments was presented by both sides of discussion … WYRD will have to make decision.

For me fight is over …. I will wait for treaty condition

Edited May 3, 2013 by caen

[Gruesome]

Can someone just please call someone else a Nazi already so that we can move on?

[Jonas Albrecht]

Can someone just please call someone else a Nazi already so that we can move on?

Are you kidding me? This thread has a person comparing themselves to the American Revolution because they don't want to pay for new cards. It's comedy GOLD.

[Ryu]

Ryu: Sits down to type a post. Clicks "Post Quick Reply". Missile Post doesn't fire. Looks confused.

???: Um, sir. We're going to need the launch codes for that. Touch that button again and you're in trouble.

Ryu: ...okay. XjS3k003.f27BebeboopDoom7, initiate launch in 5...

???: Code XjS3k003.f27BebeboopDoom7 confirmed. WAJ84jGurkittens8m.9er.

Ryu: Confirmed.

POST LAUNCH!

Edited May 3, 2013 by Ryu

[Voodoo Specter]

The cards are part of a release that includes books, cards, new sculpts of older models, and completely new none of us knows the exact percentages of what costs what or how much profit each makes or what their costs were to design and produce those things, so none of us is qualified to say whether or not the cards are a vital part of their business plan. But we can all say that selling something makes you more money than giving it away for free.

Not if giving them away for free gets you more money through increased sales on other higher profit products. $8 (to use the example but entirely made up cost of the cards) spent on low profit cards will net you lets say for example 10% but that same $8 spent on models will net you 50% profit which the customer is happy to spend because they have seen how the model interacts with the crew so giving the rules away for free dosent make them valuless it increases the amount of profit from sales being made on the higher profit products. This whole statement is based on thinking other customers have the same mindset as me and don't think well I put that money asside for buying rules now I don't have to I will just keep it in my wallet and instead think I don't have to pay for the rules. Great now I can by more toys to play with.

As a side note while firmly in the we should get free pdfs camp I am strongky opposed to people who feel entitled to free rules. This is Wyrds product and how they distribute it is entierly their decision you paid for V1 rules and models and thats what you got. I just want to be part of the group who helps Wyrd see free rules will benefit us both.

[Math Mathonwy]

This is the third time that someone has explained what they mean and the third time you have gone "oh well I guess you mean they are making fat stacks of cash on the cards" and no one has said that. Stop.

"Considerable money" and "lots of money" are relative terms that mean nothing.

People are saying that it is a financial risk to release the cards as a PDF. That is equally meaningless or meaningful. Believe it or not, considerable money is a thing. Seriously. It means that the amount of money would be of some consequence. If they make, say, $0.002 of profit out of each card pack they sell, then it is not considerable (unless they sell millions of them, which is not likely). If they have a healthy margin and make, say, 10% of their profits out of the cards, then that would be considerable money. But I highly, highly doubt this.

Out of interest, do you have any financial education? Or experience with minis companies' finances?

They will make money off the cards, yes. We don't know how much, but we know it will be more money than if they GAVE THEM AWAY FOR FREE.

We do? You 100% sure about that? I guess you have some inside information, then.

I don't think this is a difficult concept to grasp.

Heh, I didn't think that the stuff I'm saying is difficult to grasp, but here we are. *shrug*

The cards are part of a release that includes books, cards, new sculpts of older models, and completely new models. None of us knows the exact percentages of what costs what or how much profit each makes or what their costs were to design and produce those things, so none of us is qualified to say whether or not the cards are a vital part of their business plan. But we can all say that selling something makes you more money than giving it away for free.

We can't say that, but even if we could, making a miniscule amount of money isn't really better than making no money, in the grand scheme of things.

I also note that you didn't acknowledge the three facts I laid out but decided to ignore them and repeat essentially, yet again, the same thing you said before. So I doubt that anything fruitful will come of this conversation. I've provided reasons and examples yet you insist on repeating the same things trying to obfuscate the fact that your only argument is that Wyrd is going to be making money out of the card packs and therefore, no matter that the amount of money is very likely to be inconsequential, they should not publish the PDFs.

---------- Post added at 10:59 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:56 PM ----------

As a side note while firmly in the we should get free pdfs camp I am strongky opposed to people who feel entitled to free rules. This is Wyrds product and how they distribute it is entierly their decision you paid for V1 rules and models and thats what you got. I just want to be part of the group who helps Wyrd see free rules will benefit us both.

Agreed! I don't think that they "owe" us anything. The second edition was bound to happen and they are giving us ample warning of it and the open beta sounds very good. Business as usual, really.

But I share the belief that free PDFs won't hurt them one bit.

[Semyaza]

The way I see it, it'd be nice to have PDF versions of some of the new cards, when they become available. I could read them on my phone, for example, when I should be working.

If not, also fine; let's not kid ourselves, I for one will be buying the M2E rule book, a faction deck (if that's the way it goes) and probably new models as well as soon as they become available regardless. I think a lot of people will.

Fighting for the privilege of free things? From a business? I work at a business, I can't give out free things. But Wyrd is a way more awesome company than the one I work for, so maybe they'll do way more awesome things. I hope so, I like the v2 card PDFs, and free rule sets help get more people into the game.

[Stadon]

Arbitrary maths.

Suffice it to say, in the set of entirely made up numbers there exist a set of numbers pulled from thin air that prove/disprove any point you wish to make about anything. Unfortunately, they are meaningless because no one not associated with Wyrd has the manufacturing and marketing data to say anything with certainty. I can say cards will have a higher profit margin because they are cheaper and easier to produce and then turn around and say minis have a higher profit margin because of superior economy of scale. It doesn't matter what I say, because I have no data to back them up other than randomly selected numbers designed to prove my point.

What this thread has accomplished it to put a request out there. That's it. It's a request a lot of people would go along with because people like free stuff. Heck, I love free stuff, but I don't think that my desire for free stuff in the absence of any other data regarding any of the cost and profit potentials concretely justifies a course of action. That decision falls on Wyrd and cannot, and indeed should not, be made simply by the repeated requests of a small number of people.

The real question (a question that can not be asked anymore in the light of the v2 announcement) that I want answered is that if Wyrd had come out and said "we are remaking the cards in a format that fits into a standard card sleeve/box and selling faction decks of them" how many people would have been all shut up and take my money to that?

[Ryu]

@Math: The question here isn't how much profit they make off of selling the cards (I assume the margin on this will be low by industry standards) but rather the direct risk they introduce to their Intellectual Property by releasing the rules and models for free. Especially with Vassal or gamers who don't mind proxying.

It has been repeatedly proven (thank you GW) that gamers will still pay for the updated versions of a game they love.

I fully agree with your "test run" example, but it makes more business sense to only offer a subset of models as the test run. Enough so a player can determine whether they like the system or not. No need to give everything away for free - something you're promised no return on.

While it's true that Wyrd doesn't only have IP, they also have tangible models any company has to be leery of giving away what amounts to trade secrets (seeing as their IP is exactly what differentiates them from the competition) for no promised return.

[Math Mathonwy]

@Math: The question here isn't how much profit they make off of selling the cards (I assume the margin on this will be low by industry standards) but rather the direct risk they introduce to their Intellectual Property by releasing the rules and models for free. Especially with Vassal or gamers who don't mind proxying.

So you're afraid of the proxies? I guess HalcyonSeraph was wrong then:

No one is afraid of proxying. FS was just giving another example of who the cards are for, to allay the fears of another poster that thought cards might no longer come with models, which is not the case.

I have some proxies, either for models that I have been using before the real model came out (like the Blessed of December), or for models who I just don't like the look of (like aMarcus or the Mature Nephilim). No one thinks that will put a serious dent in Wyrd's pocketbook.

He has been arguing that the monetary losses incurred by the lost profits of missed card pack sales are the sole driving force behind the detractors of the PDF release. You seem to take the complete opposite view that the profits are miniscule and that the proxies are the real danger.

I have to say, that like I said to Fetid Strumpet, I can see the logic in that fear a lot better. I personally don't believe it to be a likely scenario but I can respect it a lot better. Especially so with the rather low opinion people outside these forums seem to have of Malifaux plastic (I have had to defend the plastics in many a corner of the net - there were hickups (the Neverborn box) but the more recent releases have been good quality for the most part (Izamu is IMO a great example, though it does have components that break easily)). So yeah, maybe people are looking to proxy more in the future.

[Paddywhack]

It has been repeatedly proven (thank you GW) that gamers will still pay for the updated versions of a game they love.

Until it is no longer the game you love. :Powerful_Puppet:

And that is not a shot at Wyrd - I am very excited by the new rules and think I like most everything I have heard. Bring it!