why didn't wyrd make avatars more interesting

[Forar]

Why wouldn't that be disappointing? "Man, aSonnia is so good that if I could manifest her while flipping for terrain, I would!"

"Really? Mine is good if the moon is full and a black cat crossed my path and a hummingbird flapped its wings in Tibet."

"There are hummingbirds in Tibet?"

"... that's part of the problem."

I hyperbolically exaggerate for comedic intent, but the point remains. :-P

You choose to attach an Avatar during crew hiring after you have generated the random Strategy. It doesn't take precognition to know if attaching one could be a detriment anymore than choosing to hire specific models.

Just because you know the strats doesn't mean you can project that you'll have a very good reason to need to move X, or that suddenly ending up with a vulnerability to Y could be highly detrimental (aHoffman, I'm looking at you), etc.

There is also a very subtle benefit to attaching Avatars, namely that your opponent now has to worry about if you manifest them. This is a very potent thing in itself.

Except there's only 1 avatar per master, so presumably they at least have an idea of what to expect. If they know that your avatar becomes vastly less maneuverable, they may also be able to play that into an advantage. Were there multiple avatars, allowing for some tailoring of the outcome as play went on or even just leaving ones opponent guessing, I might be more inclined to see this as a benefit.

All of the Avatars do either excell at one of their Aspects or offer a completely knew one. I can't think of one that doesn't do this.

Paging doctor Hoffman, paging doctor Hoffman. He offers new abilities, at the loss of several powerful others AND gaining a new vulnerability on top of that. He's a last ditch effort when you're probably already in deep trouble to begin with.

Interesting argument in that a large SS cache for the most part only benefits one model on the board and is a risk in itself. Taking high SS models reduces the size of your total crew and can be a detriment. Relying on in game summoning is a gamble as you may not have the cards or components required to make it work. This is all part of the game.

I fail to see your point here. No kidding it's part of the game, you are paying a cost on the opportunity to do something, so in theory that 'something' should, at least on average, equal the cost you paid, otherwise it's likely a bad choice. Maybe it means a cache of 4 instead of 2, or an extra model (reducing the likelihood of being outactivated) or a slightly more expensive figure (Nino instead of an Austringer), etc, etc.

No one is arguing that there isn't a balancing act involved in making that determination.

What is being presented is the viewpoint that for some of these masters, those 2 stones (and possibly more if you have to actively pay to avoid manifesting) represent a tangible adjustment to ones cache, ones crew, etc.

Edited December 31, 2012 by Forar

[Jonas Albrecht]

I wasn't referring to anyone specifically by my comment. But the impression I got from the context that a few of the avatars=bad type posters was what I was commenting on. Basically according to how quite a few people came off they where expecting every avatar was suppose to be a sonnia or zoraida or ramos or a seamus by what I got from reading threw the thread and where upset whenever their particular favorite master didn't have a kick ass upgrade in avatar form.

I dunno, I think that's a different assumption than I would draw. I mean, the narrative for Avatars has been evolving since Book 3 dropped. First it was "they're all sidegrades", and when people realized that isn't true, we got "X Avatar is situational, Y is more of an upgrade".

So, where I am at is that people are making some bad assumptions on both the playerbase who don't enjoy Avatars, and the Avatars in general.

[Odin1981]

I think it mainly just depends on particular player playstyle with avatars. According to forum opinion aSonnia is great and a must have. But in games with her that I have played she is just meh sidegrade. It could be I am just not using her the best. But to me she is just not a I must include.

Or another specific example I can call out is aPerdita. I really want to like her I find the card control/advantage interesting but when I compare her to her neverborne counterpart aZoraida I'm just like whatever don't need. Granted it could be because I feel obey is one of the strongest abilities in the game. So I am turned off by dita losing it. AZoraida is the only reason I would every consider buying into neverborne. But that is mainly due to her not really losing anything in avatar form and having her card drawing not being revealed for all to see, as well as it being tied into her damaging spell.

[Jonas Albrecht]

I think it mainly just depends on particular player playstyle with avatars. According to forum opinion aSonnia is great and a must have. But in games with her that I have played she is just meh sidegrade. It could be I am just not using her the best. But to me she is just not a I must include.

Or another specific example I can call out is aPerdita. I really want to like her I find the card control/advantage interesting but when I compare her to her neverborne counterpart aZoraida I'm just like whatever don't need. Granted it could be because I feel obey is one of the strongest abilities in the game. So I am turned off by dita losing it. AZoraida is the only reason I would every consider buying into neverborne. But that is mainly due to her not really losing anything in avatar form and having her card drawing not being revealed for all to see, as well as it being tied into her damaging spell.

Well, that's how I feel about the whole thing.

I'm not going to sit here and claim designer insight (cause that would be dumb), but it would not really surprise me if their goal was to create a baseline of power for all of them, and through the foibles of design, we ended up with the curve that Avatars have.

[Omenbringer]

First it was "they're all sidegrades", and when people realized that isn't true, we got "X Avatar is situational, Y is more of an upgrade".

The same thing has occured with virtually every model in the game. I have lost track of how many models have been called complete crap in one thread only to be called completely broken in another. Part of the allure of this game (for me at least) has been finding the combinations that make things work in the specific set of circumstances that are generated in the game.

Totally off topic but I wonder what players thoughts are about the inclusion of the Location Features (the Special Events and Special Terrain that is generated once the location has been determined) in the game. How many people even play them.

---------- Post added at 05:46 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:42 PM ----------

I'm not going to sit here and claim designer insight (cause that would be dumb), but it would not really surprise me if their goal was to create a baseline of power for all of them, and through the foibles of design, we ended up with the curve that Avatars have.

Keep in mind that playtesters (and there are more than a few of them that have commented in this thread) are given this kind of insight.

[Jonas Albrecht]

The same thing has occured with virtually every model in the game. I have lost track of how many models have been called complete crap in one thread only to be called completely broken in another. Part of the allure of this game (for me at least) has been finding the combinations that make things work in the specific set of circumstances that are generated in the game.

Totally off topic but I wonder what players thoughts are about the inclusion of the Location Features (the Special Events and Special Terrain that is generated once the location has been determined) in the game. How many people even play them.

Yeah, it's just one of those quirks of tabletop (and other) games. It doesn't make the narrative any less wrong, and it gets into all kinds of problem areas to treat them as though that's what the designer's intended. That said, I would be quite surprised if there were ever a situation where I'd actually want to take say, the pistoleros.

And yeah, we got one guy who always wants to use lava because it gives him and advatange. Bad example.

Keep in mind that playtesters (and there are more than a few of them that have commented in this thread) are given this kind of insight.

They really should be using "as per explicit design notes" when they use this insight, because a lot of the time it comes across as them just talking out of their ass.

[Omenbringer]

They really should be using "as per explicit design notes" when they use this insight, because a lot of the time it comes across as them just talking out of their ass.

Unfortunately due to non-disclosure agreements there is only so much that can be said about what happens in the play tests.

[Nyarlanthotep]

Unfortunately due to non-disclosure agreements there is only so much that can be said about what happens in the play tests.

However the names of the Playtesters are a matter of public record. They are in the book. If they say something was Wyrds intent, it may well be they are talking gibbly-gook, however there is a fair chance they might have some insight.

[Omenbringer]

Not all the Playtesters chose to have their names immortalized in the books (Wyrd gave every one of them the choice each book).

Additionally, not all Forumites choose to reveal their names (especially their full names) on the boards so even reading the names in the book is a bit of a crap shoot.

[ooshawn]

I think I would be satisfied with tweaks to models, as long as they had a faster turn around time. Lets say avatars get fixed eventually down the road. What about worthless models which may or may not look amazing, but hardly ever get played because it can be frustrating to play with subpar models. Steamborg executioner, mercenary hamelin, Hans, Molly. Razorspine rattler. Wendigo. There are just a ton super old, worthless models just floating around they can easily pay me a starter box of the dreamer to rewrite rules for them all. Then turn around and raise sales. To me that says wyrd is getting lax and doesn't care about improving the state of the game for everyone. Look how long it took to get hamelin changed... Is it really that long of a turn around time? Plenty of very loud and vocal , local , and internet voices are saying these things that need to happen. I think malifaux is the greatest skirmish level tabletop game out there. Can it be better? hell yeah it can.

[amor sanguinis]

And yeah, we got one guy who always wants to use lava because it gives him and advatange

mmmmm lava lol

[dgraz]

To me that says wyrd is getting lax and doesn't care about improving the state of the game for everyone. Look how long it took to get hamelin changed... Is it really that long of a turn around time? Plenty of very loud and vocal , local , and internet voices are saying these things that need to happen.

I disagree completely with this. Wyrd obviously cares a great deal about it still. What I would believe is that they are growing still....and don't have the people yet to keep up with that growth. They are spread too thin. One guy can only do so much and if they're responsible for multiple things.......well, they'll get to it when they get to it.

They've also made it clear that it's their show......not ours. They are constantly on the boards and listening to our feedback, but it's their decision. No matter how much people squawk.

[DeleteAccount]

That statement has nothing to do with my opinion on Avatars.

Quite the opposite, it says volumes because your first immediate conclusion if they don't sell well "as a whole" is to drop the whole concept instead of analysing which ones are doing well and which aren't.

It's no mystery you hate the concept, that can be seen all over your arguments. There is nothing wrong with that of course, but that doesn't mean I'll keep quiet when you finish your time on the soapbox.

I disagree with you about the concept of avatars as a whole, I love the idea. What I do agree is that there are avatars and.... there are avatars. And at the end of the day I think pretty much everybody posting here agrees with this. Some avatars work well, others don't work well at all. That is not a problem with the concept of "avatar" that is a problem with the profile, the same way that the problem is not the "9 soulstone bracket", the problems is the ice golem being a piece of ****.

Also, Strumpet, I like to believe my opponent will do everything in their power to screw me over, not that everything that goes bad was a screw up on my part. That means "oh ****" covers being outplayed AND having crap luck in a section of the game, having something that I can bounce back from or a bigger SS pool on a model that barely uses them is pretty obvious to me.

[Jonas Albrecht]

Quite the opposite, it says volumes because your first immediate conclusion if they don't sell well "as a whole" is to drop the whole concept instead of analysing which ones are doing well and which aren't.

No, full stop that comment was me viewing Wyrd as a business. Infer whatever you like, you will be wrong.

[DeleteAccount]

No, full stop that comment was me viewing Wyrd as a business. Infer whatever you like, you will be wrong.

Whatever strikes your fancy.

[Jonas Albrecht]

Whatever strikes your fancy.

Not having words put in my mouth usually works.

[Fetid Strumpet]

Razhem, while I disagree with you that aKirai has any place in a competitive Kirai crew, I can repsect you opinion on it.

I just feel that those 2 SS spend on another model from the beginning of the game that is in use from turn 1 and is bought to directly further my goals and influence on the game is 1000% more useful than an OMG button, that may or may not see play and may or may not save me if I need it.

You may certainly disagree with that philosophy of game theory, but it has worked well for me, as your experiences have taught you that aKirai is actually worth something in game. Mine has just taught me the best use for her in a game is to have the opponent compliment the modeling and painting, and then use her card as handy coaster. We are just going to fundamentally have to disagree on her value to the game.

(With one exception: If you are playing a variant that allows beginning or easy manifesting early game, and therefore can effectively build the whole crew around her manifested version, then she is certainly a decent model)

On a point we probably could agree on her model was very decently costed monetarily for what you get, and she is certainly very fun to paint and display. The best part being that as I never take her to games, she actually can more easily be displayed on my Desk! =D

[DeleteAccount]

Well, now with the advent of vassal we can always try and punch each others face in and see how our philosophies pan out, or at least I'd love it.

Model wise, I do consider her the "ugly one" of the resser avatars (alt McMourning does not exist, no matter what anybody says), but it's still a damn impressive piece and if you remove her derp tongue is oh so menacing.

Also, in hypothetical happy land where we could start with her manifested, I'd love to try her out to get some real use of her vengeance mechanics, whenever she comes out to play it's because my forces are in utter shambles, I never really have enything left except a couple of seishin so never really get into the fun of "yay, you killed a Gaki, now Kirai stabs you!"

[dgraz]

Well, now with the advent of vassal we can always try and punch each others face in and see how our philosophies pan out, or at least I'd love it.

Challenge extended.

whenever she comes out to play it's because my forces are in utter shambles, I never really have enything left except a couple of seishin so never really get into the fun of "yay, you killed a Gaki, now Kirai stabs you!"

AMarcus has the same problem. He works best with some crew.....but they're usually all about dead by the time he comes out.

[Ratty]

I've run her in the past to maximize the vengeance. The thing is you don't necessary want her to manifest too early. As only regular Kirai can summon, you almost want to use the first few turns to build up numbers using soul food and summoning so you have a decent swarm of minions that can die when you manifest.

[CRC]

I disagree completely with this. Wyrd obviously cares a great deal about it still. What I would believe is that they are growing still....and don't have the people yet to keep up with that growth. They are spread too thin. One guy can only do so much and if they're responsible for multiple things.......well, they'll get to it when they get to it.

They've also made it clear that it's their show......not ours. They are constantly on the boards and listening to our feedback, but it's their decision. No matter how much people squawk.

The boards are only the tiniest percentage of the player base. Wyrd has vastly more insight into the player base than we do. Further, forums rapidly turn into echo-chambers. What we have here, is the squawking of a small number of highly vocal players. Wyrd pays attention to us, but will do what they think is best for the >99% of non-forum players.

A convention I attend has an associated forum. There was a minor revolt on said forum, about a decision that the person running the convention made. The thread ended with a statement like "100% of the people on this board agree that you made a mistake. Fix it."

At a later time, when talking with the person running the convention, I asked about the issue, he replied that he'd gotten lots of PMs, messages in private forums, phone calls, and back-room discussions on the issue. Outside the forums, the support for his decision we broad. He stuck to his guns, and the convention went just fine.

The forums are a highly biased, statistically insignificant, self-selected sample. It is a good thing that Wyrd doesn't bow to our opinions on these matters.

[Bayou Guildman]

Not to mention people like me who almost never vocalize anything because I just look for answers to my questions on the boards because I know that I am not the first to have asked a question...

[nix]

It would be cool if we could get the numbers on the percentage of the wider Malifaux community that was "Forum Active" (i.e. more than 15 posts) and the corresponding percentage that is considered "Highly Forum Active" or "Loud" (i.e. more than say.... 20 posts a month).

[Gruesome]

The forums are a highly biased, statistically insignificant, self-selected sample. It is a good thing that Wyrd doesn't bow to our opinions on these matters.

That is hyperbole in the OTHER direction, IMO.

To say that posters here are a minority is one thing.

To say that they are not speaking for their communities, many of whom may not be posters, is another.

Lastly, to say that the posters here are somehow statistical aberrations whose opinions are somehow, by default, not reflective of possible percentages of players as a whole, is yet another assumption.

The fact is that these forums are possibly the best feedback mechanism currently available as to how things are working within the game system for the greater populace.

Now that having been said...

Sifting through the signal to noise ratio here and drawing conclusions based on feedback is an entirely different matter.

There are "broken records" on all sides of the fence.

[amor sanguinis]

Eh.... i like potatos