Sorta new, thoughts on Von Schill?

[Ironmonger]

So, yep, like it says in the title, I'm pretty new to actually playing Malifaux, though I've had a number of crews for a while now. I have a decent sized Hoffman collection, but I don't want to throw down with him until aHoff comes out (I have the crew more for aesthetic and thematic reasons then actual game-play ones). So, I have Von Schill as my go-to Master: I love the fluff, the models (with the exception of Von Schill himself!), and I tend to gravitate towards mercs in game systems!

I was able to get a game in with him last night, and though I lost to Ramos, I feel that it had as much to do with me not really knowing how Schilly worked then his playability. Here's a 'standard' list I want to try next time out:

Von Schill

Student of Conflict 3ss

Desperate Mercenary 2ss

Freikorpmann 4ss

Freikorpmann 4ss

Freikorps Specialist 5ss

Freikorps Strongarm Suit 8ss

Freikorps Trapper 6ss

Freikorps Trapper 6ss

Thoughts? Opinions? Suggestions?

[naiatoc]

When I started playing Malifaux my first crew was the Victoria's. I got the Von Shill box set to expand that crew. Turns out I liked Von Shill more than the Victoria's! I still don't have many games under my belt with him, but I have a couple of thoughts.

First, I'm unimpressed with the Student of Conflict. If memory serves, the action to give another model Fast is a (2) action. That means that he will fall behind. Von Shill can blast ahead with his Nimble. The rest of the crew will advance with him leaving the Student behind. The only way I can see it working is if you stay in your deployment zone with at least 1 of your Trappers. Then the Student can give fast to one of your snipers (which is pretty bad ass, I must admit). But it means you cannot deploy them too far from your Deployment Zone.

Second, I count 38ss worth of models. What point value are you playing at? If 40ss, then you have a pool of 6ss. (2 from points not spent, 4 from his Henchman value) That's awesome! If you are playing a 35ss game (using his Henchman value for extra guys) then you only have 1ss. Which is way too few....

His Slow to Die action allows him to take a single (1) Action before dying. A master can make a healing flip as a (1) action by spending one soul stone. Essentially this means that he can't die while you have soul stones. When he takes the damage that would kill him he is reduced to zero. You get a slow to die action, so you can spend a soul stone to make a healing flip. Whatever amount you heal is how many wounds he will have when the action ends. So... more soulstones keeps him un-killable longer!

Hope this helps. There are just my 2 thoughts from reading over your list.

[Turbodog]

Second, I count 38ss worth of models. What point value are you playing at? If 40ss, then you have a pool of 6ss. (2 from points not spent, 4 from his Henchman value) That's awesome! If you are playing a 35ss game (using his Henchman value for extra guys) then you only have 1ss. Which is way too few....

Just chiming in here. The comment on soulstones is incorrect. As a Henchman with a reserve of 4, the MAXIMUM number of soulstones Von Schill can have is 4. So if you are two under the game limit - which would net a master 2 extra soulstones - you don't actually get those with a henchman. It's one of the tricky balance things in Malifaux about henchmen vs. masters.

So if you are 2 ss under, you need to take another model, upgrade an existing model, or lose them. Hrm. Dropping the desperate merc and student would get you a total of 7 more soulstones, allowing you to take the Friekorp Librarian. (That would leave von Schill with all 4 henchmen soulstones - assuming the 40 ss game that is).

Edited November 26, 2012 by Turbodog

[Kadeton]

I'd start with a core of Von Schill, the Librarian and the Strongarm Suit. The Librarian is really, really powerful. The rest of the choices are more situational - the Specialist is often good (especially against crews that rely heavily on armour) but is very slow, the Trapper I've always found quite underwhelming but long-range firepower is sometimes nice, and the Freikorpsmen are quite resilient but don't do much damage.

Think about branching out into the other Mercenaries - Taelor adds huge damage and board control, Lazarus is like having another Strongarm (perhaps better), and Ronin can be a great deterrent against melee-heavy crews. I wouldn't recommend the Student. A Desperate Merc can be good to fill out those last two soulstones, but I'd take a Freikorpsman rather than two Mercs.

Finally, try to get away from the idea of a "standard list" as much as you can. To succeed, you really need to make your list according to the requirements of the Strategies for that particular game (this is usually a question of how much speed your crew needs to achieve its goals and deny the enemy their own).

[Ironmonger]

Just chiming in here. The comment on soulstones is incorrect. As a Henchman with a reserve of 4, the MAXIMUM number of soulstones Von Schill can have is 4. So if you are two under the game limit - which would net a master 2 extra soulstones - you don't actually get those with a henchman. It's one of the tricky balance things in Malifaux about henchmen vs. masters.

So if you are 2 ss under, you need to take another model, upgrade an existing model, or lose them. Hrm. Dropping the desperate merc and student would get you a total of 7 more soulstones, allowing you to take the Friekorp Librarian. (That would leave von Schill with all 4 henchmen soulstones - assuming the 40 ss game that is).

Yarp, I'm aware of the Henchmen special rules as it pertains to ss cache. This was a 35ss list.

I'd start with a core of Von Schill, the Librarian and the Strongarm Suit. The Librarian is really, really powerful. The rest of the choices are more situational - the Specialist is often good (especially against crews that rely heavily on armour) but is very slow, the Trapper I've always found quite underwhelming but long-range firepower is sometimes nice, and the Freikorpsmen are quite resilient but don't do much damage.

Think about branching out into the other Mercenaries - Taelor adds huge damage and board control, Lazarus is like having another Strongarm (perhaps better), and Ronin can be a great deterrent against melee-heavy crews. I wouldn't recommend the Student. A Desperate Merc can be good to fill out those last two soulstones, but I'd take a Freikorpsman rather than two Mercs.

Finally, try to get away from the idea of a "standard list" as much as you can. To succeed, you really need to make your list according to the requirements of the Strategies for that particular game (this is usually a question of how much speed your crew needs to achieve its goals and deny the enemy their own).

The bold and sizing are mine. Yarp again, I'm aware of the differences between this game and the others I play as it pertains to lists and 'list building' The Strongarm seems a natural include in nearly all future lists, so I agree with you there. The Librarian looks VERY powerful, but I've really got to sit down and read her card a dozen times to be able to figure out how to effectively use her. I played her fast and up front against Ramos, trying to shut down his magic; that was a big mistake! I'll give her another shot, and maybe drop the SoC in favour of a Freikorpsmann...

[Kadeton]

The Librarian looks VERY powerful, but I've really got to sit down and read her card a dozen times to be able to figure out how to effectively use her. I played her fast and up front against Ramos, trying to shut down his magic; that was a big mistake! I'll give her another shot, and maybe drop the SoC in favour of a Freikorpsmann...

Ah, yes. For me, her main strength is that she's the most reliable and versatile healer in the game, as long as you can find a Ram to discard when she activates (made easier due to her Arcane Reservoir). The defensive buff and the offensive debuff are usually for when there's no healing to be done.

Even if you don't intend to use her to heal, always discard a Ram if you can, and try to keep her close to Von Schill. This gives her Slow to Die, which she can then use to cast Healing Energy on herself on a 4+ of any suit - this makes her incredibly difficult to kill. On her activation, she can use Furious Casting to heal herself or anyone else up to three times, which (given the resilience of the Freikorps in general) makes opponents quite frustrated - and since Furious Casting doesn't have target restrictions in the way that, say, Flurry does, she can spread that healing around, or cast the +2 Df spell instead if no more healing is necessary.

She's more a backfield healer/buffer than a frontline combatant. Hope that helps!

[gonzo917]

The librarian also loves to strip away opposing player suits. So against Ramos you can get rid of his built in :tomes. Her def buff also helps with with the friekorps below avg def. So she should be getting at least 1 useful spell off each turn. Her Rng and Melee attacks aren't very shabby either. Her Rng Ignores armor, but goes against WP and can't do anything to constructs i believe. She also has counterspell so she can ignore spells by discarding 2 cards or 1 tome and arcane resevoir. My best memory with her is killing a Snowstorm with a charge to win a game.

[Omenbringer]

First, I'm unimpressed with the Student of Conflict. If memory serves, the action to give another model Fast is a (2) action. That means that he will fall behind. Von Shill can blast ahead with his Nimble. The rest of the crew will advance with him leaving the Student behind. The only way I can see it working is if you stay in your deployment zone with at least 1 of your Trappers. Then the Student can give fast to one of your snipers (which is pretty bad ass, I must admit). But it means you cannot deploy them too far from your Deployment Zone.

It is an (All) action for the Student of Conflict to give a model Fast however with VonSchill it isn't as big an issue since he has both Nimble and Augmented Jump allowing him to move in and out of combat and reset each round for recieving Fast again from the Student of Conflict next round.

His Slow to Die action allows him to take a single (1) Action before dying. A master can make a healing flip as a (1) action by spending one soul stone. Essentially this means that he can't die while you have soul stones. When he takes the damage that would kill him he is reduced to zero. You get a slow to die action, so you can spend a soul stone to make a healing flip. Whatever amount you heal is how many wounds he will have when the action ends. So... more soulstones keeps him un-killable longer!

Definately recommend bringing VonSchill with a full cache and cycling the above as it makes him annoyingly difficult to actually bring down (especially when combined with Augmented Jump).

Ah, yes. For me, her main strength is that she's the most reliable and versatile healer in the game, as long as you can find a Ram to discard when she activates (made easier due to her Arcane Reservoir). The defensive buff and the offensive debuff are usually for when there's no healing to be done.

Uh off topic but Som'er would like to have a word with you about this statement.

[Kadeton]

Uh off topic but Som'er would like to have a word with you about this statement.

I've spent the whole of my Malifaux career ignoring the existence of Gremlins, and I don't plan to stop now!

[Seb3110]

First off: Good choice

Playing a fair deal of Von Schill myself. Started out with the box, and have expanded with Taelor, Gunslinger and Strongarm suit since then.

I am very glad i got these models, since they bring different aspects to the crew.

Taelor: Bring her to take down thos big, heavily armored golems/constructs. Used her to wreck a rail golem with out big problems. Remember to keep those crows for when agaisnt constructs

Convict Gunslinger: Mid range shooting.....A LOT of shooting. average damage (2/3/4), but potential to fire of massive ammounts of shots. His trigger happy trigger comes up more often that you would think Gives you a good use for those masks that you might otherwise not get anything special out of.

Strongarm suit....you know him allready. He can be a beast! An he can take quite a beating, especially if you bring a librarian to the table, to stand behind him and heal.

Other than that, i can only agree to what ahve allready been said. Have grown more and more fond of the librarian as time has gone by. She is really powerful and versatile, if you use her right.

Hope it was of some use.

Seb

[kenshinio]

I don't want to start a new thread, so I'll ask here.

I've benn playing Von Schill for a while but it never occured to me: if I use a healing flip as his slow to die action he stays in game???

And how many times per turn can slow to die be used? Every time he dies? (I'm at work and don't have any rules on me ).

[rancor709]

Yup its one of the reasons hes so often taken

[Kadeton]

Yes, you can make a Healing Flip as a Slow to Die action and not die (unless you flip the Black Joker, or are under some other death effect like Headshot). Molly, Lucius and Colette are also fond of this trick. You can do it every time you die, with no limit on the number of times per turn.

[Sheijtan]

But don't forget: That one Black Joker will always flip if you don't need it. Happened to me, when Von schill tied up two Young Nephilims and a Mature One. And he could survive that.

[kenshinio]

Thanks. I knew there is a reason I like this guy

[Omenbringer]

But don't forget: That one Black Joker will always flip if you don't need it. Happened to me, when Von schill tied up two Young Nephilims and a Mature One. And he could survive that.

The Black Joker can definately shut this down, however also remember that models that can inflict 3 or more Damage per strike can mitigate the Slow to Die healing shenanigans quite a bit (especially if the models are down at 1 Wound).

[Kadeton]

The Black Joker can definately shut this down, however also remember that models that can inflict 3 or more Damage per strike can mitigate the Slow to Die healing shenanigans quite a bit (especially if the models are down at 1 Wound).

I hope you mean that they can simply hit him down again every time he heals, not that he has to out-heal their damage. The amount of damage inflicted has no bearing on the Slow to Die heal - if you heal a single Wd, you live.

[Omenbringer]

Ya should have been more clear in that regard, just because they heal with the Slow to Die action they are still hovering on deaths doorstep (unless the Red Joker comes up). Models with Flurry, Fast, extra specific actions that can cause damage, or triggers that allow more "free" attacks can just chew thru the Soul Stones. Granted it takes extra resources but it is a pretty decent delima inducing trade (keep the Slow to Die healing model or keep the Soul Stones). Honestly I prefer if my opponent tries to keep them on the table as it is usually the less devastating option for getting rid of Soul Stones (unless the Red Joker comes up then the trade off isn't really worth it).

[Kadeton]

Heh, yeah. The worst is when you've already burned a few stones but you're still not out of the threat, and you have to decide whether to double down and burn more, or let him die and have them be pretty much wasted. It's an agonising decision.

[Omenbringer]

Heh, yeah. The worst is when you've already burned a few stones but you're still not out of the threat, and you have to decide whether to double down and burn more, or let him die and have them be pretty much wasted. It's an agonising decision.

It can be frustrating on both ends especially if a Librarian is on the table.

One of my favorite moments was a defiant VonSchill standing thru a whithering hail of Gremlin Gunfire (I would say pride got the better of both of us). I killed him 5 or 6 times in a single turn of concentrated Gremlin Gunfire (burning the SS that were going to be used by Avatar Sonnia later) and ended up killing 3 healthy Bayou Gremlins, injuring 3 others, a Gremlin Taxidermist and Som'er in the process (spent 6 Focused Ranged Strikes as well as 6 Reckless shots from the Bayou Gremlins, another 3 AP from Som'er trying to heal everyone, and more than a few Swinedashes getting him close enough to kill in the first place). I was finally able to kill him the next turn and ecked out a narrow points victory. This was one of my two favorite VonSchill moments (the other involved a Mistaken Identity Copy Cat Killer and Seamus).

[Thabian]

Hey guys, as a returning player, I was looking at getting the Freikorps as my new gang, they look cool and are sounding like the kind of crew I like to play, I just need to know, which book are they in?

I don't have the spare cash to get all the books, so I was just going to grab the one with them in it and the others later.

Thanks in advance for the help.

[Adran]

The majority of the friekorps are in Book 2, Rising powers.

The box set contains all the currently availible friekorps models, so you can get the rules from the cards. The only thing you would need to know is that a Henchman can lead a crew in a scrap. If they are the leader, they are treated as a master for all purposes (ie, can't be obeyed).

If they lead they can't have an end cache higher than their henchmen reserve, but they can spend the soulstone in their henchmen reserve on hiring.

So for example the Friekorps box set has Von Schill, Trapper, Librarian, 2 Friekorpsmen and a Speciallist. This totals 26 soulstone. But as Von schill has a henchman reserve of 4 you could field this crew and have a cache of 3 in a 25 soulstone game.

The friekorps strongarm suit is a model in book 4 Storm of Shadows, but hasn't yet been released

[Boshea]

Adran has it covered. If you want to check out the majority of their rules and fluff, grab book 2. The Strongarm is in book 4 and I'll sum him up as buy him the second he is available. Schill also has the largest model pool of all the henchmen since he can hire his friekorp as well as any mercenary (except Sure due to Sue's hiring rule on Ruthless). This mostly lets you cover the Freikorps' lack of magical attacks and heavy melee hitters.

[Thabian]

Thanks guys! You guys really are great! Yeah and from what I'm reading on the Strongarm on the forum, he's pretty much there to make up for the lack of heavy hitters, I'm looking at Taelor I already have as a heavy hitter to add to the group to round it out a little.

Who else would be good to add onto the base box to start with?

[Math Mathonwy]

Who else would be good to add onto the base box to start with?

I believe the most common choices besides Taelor are Convict Gunslinger and Ronin. I'm also personally fond of McTavish.