Cancelling slow with fast: Can a rules marshall please clarify?

[tattyted]

This has caused some heated debate in a different thread, so thought I would ask a couple of questions simply and carefully.

1) If a model starts its activation with slow on it, can the model use reckless to cancel out the slow?

2) having cancelled out both the slow and fast is it right that the model is not affected by either and therefore that model can then gain fast (or indeed slow) later in the turn through a different effect (i.e. not using reckless twice)?

I am aware that Ratty said this could be done in a clarification in a thread a year and a half ago, however I have also been told that since the thread predates the recent errata/FAQs it carries no weight. I cannot find anything in the errata or FAQ that replaces it. So question 3;

3) Are clarifications issued before the errata/FAQs now null and void if they are not mentioned in the errata?

Grateful if a rules marshall could give a determination.:Confused_Puppet:

[nix]

I am not sure you need a rules marshal for this, but I understand that the star tends to make people more comfortable at times.

Rules Manual pg 34:

(-1) Slow: This model forfeits 1 general AP during its current or next activation, whichever comes first.

If a model is affected by Fast gains Slow, or vice cersa, the two cancel each other out and both effects are removed. A model is not affected by both Fast and Slow at the same time.

Book 1.5 pg 178 (or any Gremlin Stat Card)

(+1) Reckless: This model may suffer 1 wound to receive Fast.

So, in your example/question #1, the model in question has slow before it activates. When the model Activates it resolved Slow by forfeiting 1 general AP per the rule quoted above. The Slow effect is now resolved and goes away (per the end time of Slow). The model then uses Reckless to gain fast. There is no Slow effect to cancel, so the model gains 1 general AP from gaining Fast during its current activation. The model then uses its AP.

For your question #2 to come about, a model would need to gain both fast and slow outside of its current activation and before activating. If a model were to gain slow and then gain fast, the Slow and Fast effects would cancel out leaving the model with no effect until it reset.

Reckless can only be used one time per activation due to how (+X) abilities work.

Hope that helps.

[Sliver Chocobo]

I belive this is about Misaki, she has slow uses reckless to cancel out the fast and slow, then walks into within 6" of Yamaziko does she gain fast again(mentor says she loses reckless and gains fast)

[FearLord]

I belive this is about Misaki, she has slow uses reckless to cancel out the fast and slow, then walks into within 6" of Yamaziko does she gain fast again(mentor says she loses reckless and gains fast)

As Nix has pointed out however, using Reckless will not cancel out slow if Misaki activated with it -

-Slow resolves when she activates and she loses 1AP.

-She suffers a wound for reckless and receives Fast +1AP

She now has 3AP and has been effected by fast, so cannot gain fast again this activation.

[tattyted]

Thanks guys. The trouble is I understand what you are saying but it seems at odds with the rules marshall clarification. The clarification is in this thread;

http://www.wyrd-games.net/showthread.php?20580-When-exactly-does-Slow-fall-off&highlight=reckless+fast

While there is some debate about using fast twice, there is no challenge in that thread to the clarification that slow resolves at the end of the activation. What people are saying now is that slow means you forfeit 1 ap on activation and the slow then goes away.

What I am trying to find out is when did that change take place? The rules manual says that the -1ap is forfeited during the turn, the only clarification from a rules marshall that I can find says the end of the turn, so why is everyone now so certain that it is forfeited at the start of the activation? I can accept that I may be wrong but what have I missed?

And as I said in the first post, I am not suggesting that reckless could be used twice.

[Tokaji]

As Nix has pointed out however, using Reckless will not cancel out slow if Misaki activated with it -

-Slow resolves when she activates and she loses 1AP.

-She suffers a wound for reckless and receives Fast +1AP

She now has 3AP and has been effected by fast, so cannot gain fast again this activation.

Actually, by this math, she only gets 2AP. 2-1=1, 1+1=2.

[Kadeton]

A related question (linked to the timing issue) would be:

If a model activates with Slow, can they then use Shrug Off (or some other dispel) to remove the Slow effect and gain an additional AP?

Theorising: If the Slow effect persists until the end of the activation and "suppresses" an AP, it could be removed. If the Slow effect simply reduces the AP generated at the start of the model's activation, there is no reason for it to persist (it's basically an instantaneous effect). It would be very good to have confirmed (again... and in the official clarifications!) which of these is actually the case.

[dgraz]

Slow or Fast stay on until they are resolved....which is at the start of the model's next activation if it is applied outside their activation or during their current activation (if they have AP left if it is Slow).

Slow would be applied at the start of your activation...you lose 1 AP. Slow then goes away. It's effect is resolved...there is nothing to Shrug Off.

[Kadeton]

Slow or Fast stay on until they are resolved....which is at the start of the model's next activation if it is applied outside their activation or during their current activation (if they have AP left if it is Slow).

Slow would be applied at the start of your activation...you lose 1 AP. Slow then goes away. It's effect is resolved...there is nothing to Shrug Off.

That is literally the topic of discussion here - according to this thread, you are wrong. Slow and Fast persist throughout the activation.

If you can give us a link to a newer clarification that supports your argument, then that is exactly what we are looking for. If not, your statement is nothing but an assumption (and, by current available evidence, an incorrect assumption).

[dgraz]

The thread you mention is over a year older than the FAQ. The FAQ overturned many earlier rulings which means that thread is not necessarily valid....also, at the bottom of that thread is a post by Ropetus disagreeing with the earlier statements in it and at the time I believe Ropetus also had a badge..........so that further muddies the waters of that thread.

The new rule book clearly indicates that models get AP at the start of their activations. The FAQ discusses how effects resolve when indicated. As per Nix's quote of the rules above....Slow forces you to lose an AP...which happens at the start of an activation......Slow is resolved...gone. You have already gained your AP and lost one, you can't get it back...the receiving AP portion of the activation is over.....unless you have something extremely weird that you have to do during your activation to lose or receive more (like Reckless).

Rules are interpreted differently by different people. Just because I don't agree with you doesn't mean I am assuming or that I am wrong and it is very insulting for you to say so.

And again, once people start insulting me, it's time for me to leave the discussion.

[gonzo917]

Slow or Fast stay on until they are resolved....which is at the start of the model's next activation if it is applied outside their activation or during their current activation (if they have AP left if it is Slow).

Slow would be applied at the start of your activation...you lose 1 AP. Slow then goes away. It's effect is resolved...there is nothing to Shrug Off.

By the way you're explaining this then a model could gain Fast twice. If it gains Fast outside of its activation then when it does activate that Fast would resolve and it would gain 1 AP then be gone. If able it could grant itself Fast with Reckless. Since the first Fast resolved during the initial activation, it would not be there to prevent the Reckless from going off. So Fast and Slow have to be continuous events to prevent this kind of thing.

[Adran]

My belief is that the thread says that the model is effected by slow/fast throughout that activation to stop the model gaining multiple instances of the Action modifier.

Not that you can remove the effects of the action modifier and so apply it again

[gonzo917]

So from my perspective my main questions are?

1) Are slow/fast continuous effects that last through out the activation or upon activation they resolve and vanish with a +1/-1 AP in its wake in which case you can gain Fast/Slow again during that models current activation?

2)Is slow/fast an effect that can be removed by Shrug Off if it is a continuous effect?

[tattyted]

My belief is that the thread says that the model is effected by slow/fast throughout that activation to stop the model gaining multiple instances of the Action modifier.

Not that you can remove the effects of the action modifier and so apply it again

But if the slow lasts through the turn and therefore can be negated during the turn, then you could use reckless to remove the slow.

Now, there is nothing in the book that says a model cannot be given fast (from different sources)only once in a turn. Its simply that it's not worth doing as they don't stack so every (+1)ap after the first is ignored. The important thing here is that the slow and fast cancel out and the rulebook specifically says they are both removed. So the slow lasts into the activation either till the end of the activation OR up until the point the fast cancels it out

SO, the question I have is; when the second fast affects the model, why is it ignored? The first has been removed so the ap is not stacking. I can see no other reason why it should not apply.

Just to be clear we are only talking about situations where a fast is applied to cancel out a slow and then a different ability or effect gives fast.

[Tokaji]

This could just be me, but I've always seen these abilities a little differently. The reason being this: Say I have a model that is naturally fast, we'll use Lilith for this example, if she receives slow, the AP is cancelled out, but the ability stays on the card. Specifically, she could still be effected by an Alp's pulse ability even if she had slow and hadn't activated yet. Basically, my POV boils down to: I don't see fast and slow as effects as much as abilities that cause effects, if that makes any sense. I can't remember if a model can be given slow twice (given, removed, given) in a turn, but I would assume it's like fast in that you can't. Which would make the logical answer that you can remove the effect of fast/slow's ability, but not the ability itself.

This is just my two cents, and very well could be wrong, but it's a different way of looking at it.

[djkickz]

The new rule book clearly indicates that models get AP at the start of their activations. The FAQ discusses how effects resolve when indicated. As per Nix's quote of the rules above....Slow forces you to lose an AP...which happens at the start of an activation......Slow is resolved...gone. You have already gained your AP and lost one, you can't get it back...the receiving AP portion of the activation is over.....unless you have something extremely weird that you have to do during your activation to lose or receive more (like Reckless).

by this interpretation of the rule why could the student of conflict not grant misaki fast outside her turn giving her +1 AP. at the start of misakis activation she receives the +1 ap and fast is resolved so there is no reason she cannot use reckless and receive another +1 AP and now have 4 general AP. I understand that this has specifically been ruled as not possible which is why I don't think this interpretation of the rules is correct. Slow and Fast must persist throughout the turn (and therefore could be shrugged off.

[Ausplosions]

Acording to the "start of the activation camp, the following would work:

Student of Conflict Activates (AP is checked: 2 AP) - Uses (All) to give Misaki Fast.

Misaki Activates (AP is checked: 3AP) Fast is now resolved. Misaki uses Reckless as first action. She now has 4 AP.

Yeahn, I'm sure that's not the case..

Another thing, is if it resolves at the start of an activation, if she uses reckless to gain Fast DURING her activation, then according to you it will not be checked for until the start of her NEXT activation. Again, seems odd.

[dgraz]

Another thing, is if it resolves at the start of an activation, if she uses reckless to gain Fast DURING her activation, then according to you it will not be checked for until the start of her NEXT activation. Again, seems odd.

I specifically mentioned Reckless and how it works outside the normal order.

Please disregard my statements. I'm afraid I'm not making myself very clear and am only further clouding the issue. I know how it works in my head (just can't explain it too well), and that's the way I run her. You guys do it your way.

[Omenbringer]

Caution wall of text but hopefully it will help a bit...

Both page 32 of the Rules Manual and of the new 1.5 edition of the base book both clearly state that

Each model receives two (2) general action points (AP) at the start of its activation. Some Triggers, Abilities, and game effects may increase or decreasse the number of AP the model recieves during its activation.

On page 34 of the Rules Manual and page 33 of the new 1.5 edition of the base book it states

The four game abilities that increase or decrease the number of general AP a model receives during its activation are collectively called Action modifiers. Action modifiers with the same name do not stack.

Further down on the same pages it also clearly states that

If a model affected by Fast gains Slow, or vice versa, the two cancel each other out and both effects are removed. A model is not affected by both Fast and Slow at the same time.

It all seems pretty clear actually. The only time a model could be effected by both Fast and Slow is either outside of its activation (say the Student of Conflict granting a friendly model Fast via Assist and then Bete Noir striking that same friendly model with Mutilate giving it Slow) or when using an ability during the activation that provides Fast to cancel out the Slow it received.

The first instance is very easy to see and resolve as they would cancel each other out (and be removed) as soon as both are present on the model (and most importantly prior to the model's activation). In this way the model could then again be affected by an ability granting Fast (or Slow) either outside its activation or during its activation (in the case of models with abilities similar to Reckless. Models that already have Fast as a listed ability on there card would instantly cancel out Slow and be removed at the start of their activation).

The second instance isn't much more difficult to resolve as the model would already be with in its activation and would have been Slow already. It can't be effected by Fast prior to this as they would have cancelled out (and be removed) prior to the start of the activation. Since the model would have to use a Trigger, Ability or game effect to somehow gain Fast during its activation it would cancel out the Slow and restore the AP that was decreased at the start of the activation however once this happens both effects would resolve and be removed from the model.

The only ability that I can think of that poses a problem to this is Reckless.

Feasibly (with in the context of the quoted passages from the rules) a model could use Reckless once to cancel the Slow effect (instantly removing it) then using it again to provide Fast for the cost of 1 additional Wd (2 Wd's total). This would be the maximum abuse of this though as the model can only have one instance of either Fast or Slow on it at a time (and never both since they instantly cancel each other out and are removed).

The question about Shrug Off is pretty clear to me as well since (from the 1.5 book) it states

Discard one Token or end one effect on this model...

Fast and Slow are neither of these, they are Action Modifiers and as such are completely unaffected by Shrug Off.

Hopefully all this helps with the discussion.

Edited October 10, 2012 by Omenbringer

[ravenborne]

+1 to Omenbringe'rs interpretation.

Caution wall of text but hopefully it will help a bit...

Feasibly (with in the context of the quoted passages from the rules) a model could use Reckless once to cancel the Slow effect (instantly removing it) then using it again to provide Fast for the cost of 1 additional Wd (2 Wd's total). This would be the maximum abuse of this though as the model can only have one instance of either Fast or Slow on it at a time (and never both since they instantly cancel each other out and are removed).

That's how I see it working.

---------- Post added at 11:39 PM ---------- Previous post was at 11:29 PM ----------

There is one oddball issue, and I am not sure it has been answered before.

Is Fast and effect?

What is not considered an effect?

(FAQ)The following are not effects:

Models

Anything printed on a model

(although they may generate effects)

Terrain

Markers/Counters/Tokens

Wounds

A Model’s State

(Model states include: Falling Back, Killed, Sacrificed, Buried)

OK, so if a model has Fast printed on it, it seems like it is not an effect...

(FAQ)Can you clarify what an effect is?

An effect meets all of the following criteria:

It is generated during an Encounter

It sits 'on' a model

Paralyzed sits on the model which is Paralyzed.

Conduit sits on the Voodoo Doll.

Nurse's Massive Dose sits on the target of the Spell.

Has a defined end time

Excessive Bleeding lasts until the end of the Encounter.

Wild Heart lasts until the end of the Turn.

Damage Effects end once the damage has been applied and you have started Damage Resolution.

So, if something gives a model Fast, such as Student of Conflict, is it now an effect?

Can FAST sometimes be an effect and sometimes not an effect?

Or, does the Fast ability on the card generate the FAST effect, and so it is always an effect?

[Omenbringer]

As was stated in my post Fast and Slow (Paralyzed and Reactivate as well) are not effects they are their own thing called Action Modifiers.

All of these Action Modifiers can be caused by "triggers, Abilities and game effects" but none are considered game effects with in the rules.

[ravenborne]

Can you explain that in terms of the FAQ rulings? Just curious.

[Fading Memory]

Reckless is a (+1) Action Modifier which means it can only be used once in an activation. So no giving it Fast to cancel Slow, then using it again to gain Fast.

[Kadeton]

Rules are interpreted differently by different people. Just because I don't agree with you doesn't mean I am assuming or that I am wrong and it is very insulting for you to say so.

And again, once people start insulting me, it's time for me to leave the discussion.

I don't personally feel that it's an insult to suggest that someone is making an assumption, but I unreservedly apologise if my doing so upset you. My issue was that you simply made a statement without providing any evidence on which to base your claim. I can be a bit of a stickler for references, and many discussions on these boards are frustrating because the evidence is obscure or unavailable. I misdirected some of my frustrations at you, which you didn't deserve. Sorry!

[dgraz]

@Kadeton - we're cool. I just can't stay in this kind of discussion. I know what I need to know on this topic. If you guys need further clarification.......well that's for a cooler head than mine to provide. Good luck.

[stinkoman]

As was stated in my post Fast and Slow (Paralyzed and Reactivate as well) are not effects they are their own thing called Action Modifiers.

All of these Action Modifiers can be caused by "triggers, Abilities and game effects" but none are considered game effects with in the rules.

I was with you up until i read the FAQ that specifies paralyzed as an effect.

Q. Can you clarify what an effect is?

A. An effect meets all of the following criteria:

It is generated during an Encounter

It sits 'on' a model

Paralyzed sits on the model which is Paralyzed.

Conduit sits on the Voodoo Doll.

Nurse's Massive Dose sits on the target of the Spell.

....