Pre-Measure

[Gruesome]

What are people's thoughts on allowing measuring anytime?

I was listening to "The Eternal Warriors" (Used to be Dice Like Thunder) discussing 6th edition 40K and they came to the topic of pre-measuring and it was interesting to me how the discussion went.

For starters, I know that many will consider the ability to estimate distance accurately to be a skill and in many cases it is and can actually be improved upon by practice.

Some people DO have a far better natural ability to see spatial relationships, which is interesting to me that there could also be a genetic advantage in a table-top game where pre-measuring is not allowed.

One of the points I found interesting was that they said that pre-measuring sped up the games, rather than slowed them. The reasons made sense when they discussed them, they just were not things I ever thought about.

I am not saying that I think that Malifaux SHOULD have pre-measuring, I am simply interested in talking about it.

I like the idea of leveling the playing field in some respects with it. If you are new to tabletop game, you are perhaps not accustomed to being able to eyeball the difference between 10 inches and 12. (Some of us are "gifted" in being familiar with such lengths. )

Also, there is "home-terrain advantage". If you know a particular terrain piece size from the past, or even more, took the time to measure the bloody things before the game started, you have information to draw from that could put you at an advantage.

There is also the straight up cheaters that do things like laying their hands on the table while "looking at something else" that know the distance from wrist to finger-tip, etc.

The questionable "measurements" where someone might have a shooting range of 16, and need to extend the ruler to 16 inches to "check on the model that is clearly about 8 inches away and has the ruler extend well beyond to see where other models are. They can get called out on it, but they cannot "unlearn" what they just saw, etc...

And then there are Terra-clips. Obviously these bring their own "pre-measured" challenges to the table and if you are even remotely good at trigonometry, you can know the distance to just about any model on the table by using the squares.

What are other people's thoughts?

[nix]

I have no problem with Pre-measuring in Malifaux and feel it would speed the game up. Its one of the changes I would prefer to see made to Malifaux in general, and in our local scene we are fairly loose on allowing pre-measuring.

[Boscotopia]

Pre-measure should be allowed. Who wants to win a game because the opponent wasted AP on failed range tests throughout the game? I want to win because I used my models in the best possible way and I had the best approach to my strategy. I like modular terrain because the 1' x 1' squares give a little pre-measure as do TerraClips. I am all for levelling the playing field in this respect.

[Dorian]

I am perfectly ok with it. Play a fewgames against a carpenter and realize how frustrating being off by. 1/8th of an inch is because he/she knows distances. Also i feel it clears up any distance debate. I premeasure and tell you i am placing myself 7.5 inches away from you, so even if you charge 6 your 1 inch melee is still out, no debate over whether you measured properly or arguing over that little sliver of space.

Competitively i would rather win because i outplayed my opponent, not because he/she misjudged a tenth of an inch. Some people will claim its a skill to know distances but then comes the handicap of people with poor vision, like myself who will have more difficulty especially if we forget our glasses.

[mythicFOX]

+1

I'm with Bill on this one. So long as we're all playing by the same rules.

[Guy in Suit]

I like the suspense of not knowing for sure exactly how far apart things are - especially when I am about to launch a Viktoria 19" across the board!

If you allowed pre-measuring it could greatly change the balance of the game.

Also, whether it speeds up or slows the game depends on player temperament. I have found that just as many players will waste time measuring every possible distance - even when it is irrelevant. I think always being able to measure your melee range is enough.

[Fetid Strumpet]

I'm with Bill on this one. I very much liked when WHF changed to allow pre-measuring.

In games I run I make certain the players know the official rules, but I always let them decide if they are both going to abide by the no Pre-measuring rule or not.

While for certain abilities that combo together could potentially slow the game down, as in Guy in Suit's example of a Vikkie move combo launch, where it isn't just one ability that is measured but a chain of move and abilites, I have found games speed up significantly when a player isn't looking a the board for several minutes and thinking:

"Is that within my gun's range? I really need to kill that model and might need both my AP to do it, but if I need to move some dmg is better than none. It looks really close, is it in range... um..."

[MudgeBlack]

I have to agree with Guy in a Suit. I enjoy the challenge of estimating distances. I just estimate, declare what I am going to do then measure the total threat range before moving anything (to avoid and fudging or misplacement, intentional or not). Then if its still out, the attack is wasted. But that is just one of the fun points to the game in my opinion.

Not saying it is for everyone, just my $0.02.

[Cadilon]

I have mixed feelings about it, but generally lean towards no pre-measuring. I enjoy the challenge of being able to estimate distances and place myself just where I need to be, without knowing for sure.

Of course, I've never played it the other way either, so maybe the change wouldn't be that big of a deal. It'd be worth trying out sometime soon just to see how it affects things.

[Malovane]

One of the points I found interesting was that they said that pre-measuring sped up the games, rather than slowed them. The reasons made sense when they discussed them, they just were not things I ever thought about.

Can you elaborate on their points? My initial reaction would be all the extra wasted measuring would slow the game down. Is it just that people have to spend less time planning their actions when they can immediately measure all the possibilities?

Beyond that, I would say pre-measuring takes a bit of the risk and danger out of the game. I like that level of risk assessment and sometimes coming up just short. Feels very cinematic to me.

Regardless, if it does speed up the game and smooth out the gameplay, I would consider that an overwhelming positive.

[Gruesome]

I like the idea of knowing in advance whether some of the multi-move combos will reach across the board.

Knowing that some bury-unbury move, charge yadda yadda things net you 30 inches and that you are 31 inches away, you can say, "YOU CANNOT REACH ME" and sometimes when the models do all their individual movements "magically" an extra inch or two comes from nowhere? (That's what she said)

I will say that one thing I did not expect to see in the thread was the number of responses that have mentioned wanting to win because of skill and tactics instead of because their opponent misjudged distance. In light of recent conversations on a certain card of the rouge-persuasion I'd not have thought that people would care so much about the circumstances by which they happen to win, especially when their opponent had such a direct hand in the misjudging.

[Cadilon]

Can you elaborate on their points? My initial reaction would be all the extra wasted measuring would slow the game down. Is it just that people have to spend less time planning their actions when they can immediately measure all the possibilities?

Beyond that, I would say pre-measuring takes a bit of the risk and danger out of the game. I like that level of risk assessment and sometimes coming up just short. Feels very cinematic to me.

Regardless, if it does speed up the game and smooth out the gameplay, I would consider that an overwhelming positive.

My sense is pre-measuring would speed things up. I can admit from experience that a good portion of my planning time is spent trying to determine if I am in range or not. If that were taken out of my consideration, my turns would go probably 20-30% quicker.

[Gruesome]

Can you elaborate on their points? My initial reaction would be all the extra wasted measuring would slow the game down. Is it just that people have to spend less time planning their actions when they can immediately measure all the possibilities?

Beyond that, I would say pre-measuring takes a bit of the risk and danger out of the game. I like that level of risk assessment and sometimes coming up just short. Feels very cinematic to me.

Regardless, if it does speed up the game and smooth out the gameplay, I would consider that an overwhelming positive.

One good example of how the game was faster that I see all the time both in myself and my opponents is that by allowing pre-measure, you can be checking things during your opponent's turn, if you want and that you can know what will reach and not reach very quickly even on your own turn.

So, your decision making process is simply about what actions you think will most benefit your plan without having to add to the equation the likelihood of some of the actions only MAYBE being in range. For myself, I have had MANY an occasion in which the thing I MOST want to do is cast rigor mortis at something, but I am not sure whether I am 10 inches away or 10.5...

So, do I waste an AP to get that extra .5? (Which is pretty much a full walk from nicodem, yes? And 3 Soulstones... <cough> <cough> )

Then I weigh that Rigor Mortis chance itself against other things that might be "guaranteed"...

If I just KNEW that I could or could not cast it, I am making my decisions on the actions I want to take.

I also want to add that when I was talking about inherent advantages that some people naturally have, I did not even think about eyesight itself. That's a pretty big deal I am thinking...

[nix]

On speeding the game up, I agree with @cadilon. Most of my turns tend to be trying to figure out where models are in relation to each other (distance wise) because I suck as judging distance. Add to that, I really hate determining that I need to move a model before making an attack or other action, moving and then measuring and finding out that I did not need to move (by a long shot) anyways. I rarely run into issues with the 1/8th of an inch or 1/16th of an inch, as I usually (not always) let those pass as in. I have trouble telling the difference between 8 inches and 10 inches. Its tough when you line up an action, say a Marshal shooting a target, and your not sure if the distance is 10 inches or 13 inches away, so you walk 4 then find out you are now only 5 inches from the target.

[Dumb Luck]

Some abilities give you a cheeky pre-measure anyway. Looking at you, Nino and Rami!

[Buhallin]

I have issues with my eyes. Since I was young, my brain only used one eye. This means I have little to know stereo vision, which has two major impacts in my life: I can't see 3D movies, and I have no depth perception.

IMHO it comes down a lot to what you view your (the player's) role in the game as. In general, I view myself as guiding competent actors on a battlefield, making decisions while they execute those decisions. Rangefinding is not a decision-making skill, and the ability to accurately determine range should not be up to me any more than my ability to accurately aim a gun determines my model's chance to hit or my ability to be irresistibly sexy should determine my Belle's ability to Lure someone (because let's face it, if it did, my opponents wouldn't stand a chance ) It gets even sillier when you're in science fiction settings. Every marine who operates in space would have a dozen different methods to determine range to a target built into their armor, but I have to guess whether or not it's in range for his gun to hit? Makes no sense.

On the practical side, I think the concerns about how much it'll slow down the game are mostly overblown hyperventilating from people who just don't want to see it change. In my own experience, and my own play, players will waste far more time agonizing over an uncertain range check than they would measuring multiple possible ranges.

[Gruesome]

...players will waste far more time agonizing over an uncertain range check than they would measuring multiple possible ranges.

I do not remember playing you, but we obviously have.

[Guy in Suit]

I very much liked when WHF changed to allow pre-measuring.

Yeah, it is just AWESOME how EVERY cannon shot now starts with "I'm putting the marker "8 from the back edge of his base..." :Confused_Puppet1:

[Fetid Strumpet]

Your point?

Anyway, back on topic, Agree with Buhallin 100% on this issue, and he expressed many of the frustrations I've had with the no pre-measuring.

[nilus]

In theory the idea of guessing ranges can make the game more exciting and fun, and I like it on occasion. There is that thrill when you just make it and that feeling of "awe man" when you just miss it.

The problem is that between cheeky ways to do it and tricks and down right cheats to do it, it gets hard to police. Also given that the Wyrd official terrain has a grid already I think its just easier to allow it. If not now, then if/when a new edition is considered.

Will it change the game, probably, but not in a terrible way.

[tadaka]

+1 for premeasurement. From what i have sceen from the 40k guys the change has gone well and most of them like it. Hell if set mats like hero clicks were posable i woujd go there and remove measurement all together.

[Malovane]

My sense is pre-measuring would speed things up. I can admit from experience that a good portion of my planning time is spent trying to determine if I am in range or not. If that were taken out of my consideration, my turns would go probably 20-30% quicker.

I feel like I'd end up being the exact opposite. I'd look at possibilities, measure every one to see what was valid, then still end up spending time deciding which was the best possible activation. Currently, I look at options, find the best one, weigh the risk of failure vs potential gain, execute activation or assess next possibility. I don't believe premeasuring would speed up my gameplay significantly.

Perhaps more importantly, I'm not certain premeasuring would increase my enjoyment of the game. My gut reaction says it would actually detract from my enjoyment (removing some that small level of risk and danger), though that may just be a resistance to change. I feel like the game would become a battle of tape measures rather than a battle of minis.

To use an example, playing warmachine/hordes, you can use your leader's control area to prejudge distances. This can range from 10" to 20" depending on the leader. Playing with a leader with a 20" control area and being able to prejudge every move quickly became boring to me and removed a lot of the fun for me. Take it or leave it, my personal taste has found premeasuring to be rather bland and boring.

[Jonas Albrecht]

I can "see" lengths in my head pretty well. My friends cannot. I think it's an unfair advantage and would love to see the rules changed.

[Forar]

I would be fine with allowing pre-measuring.

I agree on the above points; it'd help with planning actions and not having to waffle on whether or not I'm half an inch too far away, let people be a bit more inclined to check distances ahead of time (which in itself would be a bit of a metagame; do you check on a figure directly, or do you leave it be for now and hope your opponent thinks you've forgotten about it?), and in general smooth over having to check and double check when fractions of an inch are involved (which is extra problematic as a densely covered board and the figures themselves can make it more of an effort in 'eyeballing' things from 2-4 inches up anyway).

[Odin1981]

I'd be fine with pre-measuring movement + melee range but that's it. If you could measure everything you would finally see the rise of gunlines in malifaux that everyone hates.