Whats with the hate on Seamus?

[JisaacT]

I dont see why there has been a lot of hate generated on Seamus lately. Maybe I'm biased but I just dont understand it.

I will agree he has a very low SS cache (which I find odd from his fluff...he seems pretty damn innovative) but I have been seeing posts saying he isn't very tough. He heals wds whenever something dies around him and has a healing ability with a damage/healing spread of 2/2/5. Get severe off twice with a bit of luck and your at almost full wds again.

His crew synergy is small but he has solid damage, great triggers (people seem to forget about excessive bleeding and making people insignificant or slit jugular) and can help out belles with movement, and if done right can get a free charge with no escape.

I have had great success with him and his crew. While he cant bring out new bodies like the other ressurs can he can dish out much more damage, and fear (terrify) than the others. While many units can withstand terrifying there are ways to get around that. For examply bringing onryo or investing in his avatar.

I just dont get the hate going around right now.

[Kadeton]

I find Seamus' abilities are a great fit for his fluff, but he tends not to perform particularly well in game. With a low SS cache and low stats, he cannot compete with other Masters in straight-up fights (at least without his Avatar) and he cannot replenish losses except for Belles, who are great for a certain kind of mobility but lack in other areas (especially damage).

Many of the Book 1 Masters at this point seem to need to resort to the exploitation of certain 'tricks' (like McMourning's turn 1 puppy-murder spree) or overpowered Book 2 minions (like the Twins) in order to compete with their Book 2 counterparts. Seamus doesn't have any particularly effective tricks or special synergies that lift him from Book 1 obscurity.

Finally, the fact that so many of his abilities rely on Living opponents means that he simply has a lot of matchups where he's at a significant disadvantage from the outset.

All that said, I think he's a very fun and flavourful character, and he can have great games when up against primarily Living opponents or when going Avatar. Otherwise, basic Seamus just feels a bit old and broken compared to all the new hotness.

[Clement]

Finally, the fact that so many of his abilities rely on Living opponents means that he simply has a lot of matchups where he's at a significant disadvantage.

This. The strong masters right now aren't heavily impacted by WP tests. Seamus doesn't have a great way around that right now.

[Mike3838]

It definitely isn't hate going round. We all love Seamus but just think he could so with a small power boost. He isn't the only master that needs it either.

The healing abilities you mention are unreliable since Necrotic Ministrations only works for Living and Undead, and his healing spell can't be used in melee when you probably need it most.

His damage is far from solid really, and his triggers are merely ok. His Cb isn't quite high enough to do more than Weak damage, or to reliably get the triggers off. Excessive Bleeding is difficult to apply in an effective way, and most people are scared enough of Slit Jugular to hang onto their cards long enough to make it less effective.

Don't get me wrong I love the guy, and I'm making some changes to my crew to use him as my main competitive master this year, but I accept that he's only average on the power scale.

Mike

[Soundwave]

It definitely isn't hate going round. We all love Seamus but just think he could so with a small power boost. He isn't the only master that needs it either.

Pretty much this. Small cache and lots of stuff only affecting living really hampers him. While I won't reiterate any further since the formers posters pretty much spat it all out, all I can say is that I love my lil' Seamus and he'll always be the apple of my eye. Even though I'd love for him to be a bit more...competitive.

[Stonedog-7]

I'll chime in on the definitely not hate line for Seamus... i've always had a blast every time i've played him even though i'm well behind him needing a slight tweak or boost

[Fetid Strumpet]

Same. Seamus and Molly fluff wise are my favorites of the game, but in game I always feel very hampered playing him, especially after playing Kirai or Pandora. It is exceptionally frustrating that the Master who is supposedly more feared than the NB is so weak in the game.

I'm not talking killing power, one of the things mechanics wise that attracted me to Seamus was that he was supposedly a model that although not deadly in combat, was super survivable and that his control abilities more than made up for what he lacked in Combat punch. Now as I've said in the past, it could just be my lack of skill with him, but I've found that he isn't very survivable, and he honestly doesn't have much control.

I really began to notice the issue when a Lilitu got him in melee range during one game and rendered him ineffective for the rest of the game. I couldn't heal, I couldn't do dmg, I couldn't get away, and a wicked disengaging strike on a triple negative flip, pulling the Red Joker, followed up by a single whip strike killed him. Of all the masters I play Seamus is definitely the easiest to kill, because even when I try to just keep him out of combat and just stay out of the game, my opponent still manages to hunt him down and kill him every other game he comes out or so. Pandora has come close, but never died while I've been playing her. Kirai again has come close, but never died. I'm not saying that they never will, but if one of Seamus' great traits is his vaunted survivability, I've yet to experience it.

Consistency is one of the benchmarks of competitiveness in any game. If you have options to bring into the game you only want to bring the things that always perform well under any circumstances, and Seamus currently has too many abilities that just don't work all the time. He is very limited against non-living models, and even when he faces living models most of the time his trail of Fear only serves to reduce or negate abilites that the living models have that passively boost their WP.

Almost every solidly living crew I go up against is a guild crew or a Freikorps crew, which means almost every model coming into the game has a solid WP to begin with, and then on top of it has Stubborn, Fear Not Death, or the buff from the Governer's Proxy, or Von Schill's Hard Ass Buff added on top.

Now as Nix has said repeatedly on his podcast, Malifaux isn't balanced Master to Master, it is balanced Faction to Faction, which is all to the good, but in the Resser's case I can't think of a single strategy that Kirai or McMorning cannot do better than Seamus can. I'm very much hoping that book 4 releases models which give Seamus some additional synergy with his crew, like the Witchling Handler does, or something similar.

The final thing I think is fairly telling, although admittedly anecdotal, is that Seamus seems to be one of the models that really draws people into Malifaux. I've read lots of stories of groups who start because someone finds out about Seamus gets his crew, gets others interested in the game, but then moves on from Seamus as their competitive master of choice once they've learned the game a bit, and to me, that is just a sad story.

[sinistercats]

The final thing I think is fairly telling, although admittedly anecdotal, is that Seamus seems to be one of the models that really draws people into Malifaux. I've read lots of stories of groups who start because someone finds out about Seamus gets his crew, gets others interested in the game, but then moves on from Seamus as their competitive master of choice once they've learned the game a bit, and to me, that is just a sad story.

+1

Seamus is a gateway model for Malifaux like Teddy, Kade, etc. I think of all the Masters he is the best convergence of fluff translated into gaming terms. It feels like the game has moved beyond him though. He's a blast to play and a GREAT way to learn the game but as noted, he's soon left behind when the other ADHD options of the game come knocking...

[rancor709]

Seamus is an interesting master. I started. With him and feel in love with the game. I have no hatred for seamus and have found few things survive the twins. From a purely competitive standpoint seamus needs help I've had success running him with vonschill and dead rider with von schill and dead rider doing most of the heavy lifting. Seamus cannot live on belles a lone and sybelle is best raised by molly. Avatar seamus helps make seamus work against nonliving but you have to build your crew for manifest.

[Calmdown]

Healing abilities are no good when youre dead before you get to use them.

HtW2 is a huge double edged sword.

HtK is his only advantage.

He has Df4 and a small SS pool. Taking a full SS pool gives yu a severely handicapped crew.

Once he's in melee he's very lackluster.

He relies somewhat on undead or living models dying, which is generally only his own crew.

Undead Psychosis doesnt help him and you cant make him undead with a Necro Machine.

He has no synergy with any totems.

Honestly his main saving grace right now is his Avatar. If he got a couple of SS cache boost he'd be very playable. Though like most Rezzer master, until they remove their reliance on enemy living models and release a good selection of summonable models (Dead Doxy did nothing to help Seamus really in the area he needed it... Raw combat) theyll never play the way they feel they should.

[Soundwave]

I really began to notice the issue when a Lilitu got him in melee range during one game and rendered him ineffective for the rest of the game. I couldn't heal, I couldn't do dmg, I couldn't get away, and a wicked disengaging strike on a triple negative flip, pulling the Red Joker, followed up by a single whip strike killed him.

To be honest, Seamus does have a sort of easy access as to getting out of combat...

[Hjelmen]

HtW2 is a huge double edged sword.

I'm pretty new to Malifaux, so just so I'm not left wondering: how is HtW a double edged sword?

[Ozz]

bigger chance of giving your opponent the red joker, other than that it is all good afaik:)

[Fetid Strumpet]

Hard to Wound 2 is a double edged sword because if you want to kill a model that has it, and you haven't seen the red joker yet, you aim everything you have at him and hope for max negative flips. If you hit him enough times the red joker is going to come up, and unless the black comes up in the same flip you may choose the red for a severe dmg flip + an extra flip. Even on lackluster dmg models that can easily be 5+ dmg, and if a combat model does it... bye bye. It happens to Seamus about every other game in my experience.

[Hjelmen]

Aaah, that makes sense. Thanks!

[JisaacT]

I see your points now. I'm sad to say then I have suffered the Seamus gateway effect and want to move onto a more competitive master. I dont want to leave him in the dust though as he is my only ressur master and I have mostly ressur models. Just kinda indecisive on what to do at this point.

[Calmdown]

I see your points now. I'm sad to say then I have suffered the Seamus gateway effect and want to move onto a more competitive master. I dont want to leave him in the dust though as he is my only ressur master and I have mostly ressur models. Just kinda indecisive on what to do at this point.

Wait for my Nicodem tactica to hit in a couple of months and play Nicodem until everyone cries about how broken he is?

[ravenborne]

There seem to be two Malifauxs. You can't quite draw the line between book 1 and 2, but there are a class of master's that really feel like they are bringing a knife to a gun fight, and Seamus is the "knife" category despite his big gun. But he's loads of fun to play.

If some of these weaker master's don't get an errata, it would be interesting to see a set of models come out that boost their power level. Its kind of band-aidish but something would be nice to bring all masters into the same game.

[Sliver Chocobo]

He's OP

[HarryHarrison]

I've only got into Malifaux recently but since starting I have noticed that Wyrd release stuff in waves. Book 1 this and Book 2 that. Sadly I fear this may end up killing the game like it did one of my other favourites Monsterpocalypse. The problem with wave release is that you inevitably suffer from power creep, where the newer models are just bigger stronger and more effective than the previous lot. The amount that people talk about the differences between book 1 and book 2 masters does make me worry that the game is already suffering from this.

Wave one has terrifying models, well to counter that worry loads of wave 2 characters have anti-terrifying counter measures. Creating new masters and minions that play differently rather than play better is what is needed. Though at the end of the day there are only so many ways to skin a cat... i think it's like 8.

[Mike3838]

I don't think Malifaux suffers from a wave effect. The Book 2 masters are all based on innovative mechanics that are just a little more difficult to counter with the "conventional" Masters found in Book 1.

Its worth noting that there wasn't really any power creep from

Book 2 to Book 3.

Mike

[edonil]

Honestly, though, there weren't any new Masters in book 3, and, as with the case in Privateer Press' Warmahordes, those are the kinds of models where the power creep is most noticeably seen. Seamus' big Achille's Heel is his reliance on his opponent bringing living models...particularly ones that are susceptible to Morale duels. If your opponent is immune to that kind of stuff, well...there isn't a whole lot you can do. In book 1, immunity to that kind of stuff was pretty rare. Book 2? It's really common. So, in addition to the natural synergy that Book 2 Masters have, on top of that they don't care about the majority of Seamus' abilities, which leaves him relying on his combat abilities. Which aren't very good or forgiving.

Personally, I'm in the 'I love Seamus...he just isn't very good right now' camp.

[Cornelious1424]

Seamus is one of my favorite masters in the fluff and to play. The Htw2 issue I've never seemed to have a problem with, to be honest, however I guess it is only a matter of time. Maybe I'm fortunate that the majority of my group is stuck on primarily Book 1 masters, so I really don't feel how bad the non-living model type is against him. My few games against masters like the Dreamer and Kirai have gone pretty well. Maybe I've been lucky, I don't know but, I really don't see why most people on the boards think he is a "bad" master.

[edonil]

Bad is a relative term, I'll admit. Basically, the way that I've looked at it, is in the majority of situations I'll find, how many abilities can I use? In a Book 1 environment, I can use a lot of Seamus' abilities to good effect. In a Book 2 environment, I can't use even half of them. And what with the Book 2 Masters being the ones you'll see most often in competition, people are having a hard time finding room to bring Seamus to tournaments.

[Fetid Strumpet]

Exactly. When you bring something to a Tournament you want the strong abilities that your model has to work reliably, or most of the time. For example among the other Resser masters let's take Dr. McMorning. He is one of the stronger Resser masters because he does what he does, and it doesn't matter what you bring, he will still do his thing.

You bring things that don't drop Corpse Counters, he's cool, he can still pull BP off you, and in most crews he brings his own to start to get BP banked for fast, Flesh Constructs, or a Rogue Necromancy.

You bring a melee crew, he's still ever so deadly.

You bring a control crew, you better spend time controlling him, which means you won't be going after his crew as much, and it will be a big crew because of his whopping 6SS Cache.

He can heal off no matter what you bring, his heal isn't limited to dmg caused to living models.

You get him into Melee, you better put him down because he will kill just about any non-master, and many Masters in one activation if you don't.

In short what he does pretty reliably works. Now he might not be the best choice for your strat, but what HE does is not affected in general by what the opponent brings.

Seamus, however is. Not only is Seamus not necessarily the best master for any particular Strategy, he also might not work very well if your opponent doesn't bring things that are susceptible to what he does. And that is to my mind one of the biggest draw backs to playing him competitively. I also feel that some of his abilities were better when there we only the few strats in the game when being made insignificant when you got hit might have been a bigger deal.

For that those that think he is perfectly fine, just perhaps a little harder to use, let me know if you are ever in the area so I can see how you play him. I would love to be proved that if it's just my skill level at using him that is to blame on why he never seems to come out on top in the games I use him.