Which models are a terrible, rules-wise?

[Rathnard]

Okay, this is actually the sort of thread I don't like starting, since it inevitably devolves into alot of arguements and negativity.

But...my curiosity has gotten the better of me. I'm the sort of person who likes to make the most out of models that other people don't rate - it's why I started Marcus. I like to think I see strengths in certain models that other people pass over, but perhaps my eagerness to identify these strengths blinds me to the fact that actually, they're absolutely useless?

So in the interest of Science (SCIENCE!!! *raises fist into the air*) I thought I'd ask everyone here what they thought were the models with completely unworkable rules?

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I'll start with a few choices of mine;

Malifaux Child

He's got low stats and a highly, highly situational spell - you have to cheat down a decent mask to swap for a card you probably discarded last turn anyway. OR you target your opponent and use a high mask to make them swap the worst card in their hand for a card they discarded last turn. Unless they're down to one card in hand, it's not much of a benefit. He takes the place of a totem, yet is more expensive than most other totems despite doing less. Book 2 (Rising Powers) sealed the deal for the poor Malifaux Child - there's currently nothing the kid can do that a Desperate Merc can't do better.

Sabretooth Cerebrus

He can hit hard, but he's not very tough and it only takes a few wounds to neutralise his three headed, after which he's far less effective. With the advent of Book 3 (Twisting Fates), I feel like the December Beast (I forgot the name) is actually a tougher, faster, and overall better version of the Sabretooth for the same cost.

Hoarcat Pride

The main issues seem to be their speed, and the fact that they're far less dangerous if they start getting wounded first (which isn't hard, given their speed and lack of resiliance). Devour is a cool ability, but very hard to get off when you consider the need for a high :crows.

Wendigo

When your Master is all about killing things with spell damage, how could this totem compete with the Essence of Power? Maybe I'm missing something, but I've certainly never seen someone using this model over the essence.

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Those are the main ones that come to mind. Perhaps unsurprisingly, alot of them are Book 1 Arcanists.

There are others that I suspect people will mention, but I've left them off my list because I think that they can be decent on the table if you put your mind to it and play to their strengths. Either way, I'll be interested to see what other people come up with.

[Wolfgar]

I don't know if any models are genuinely terrible, although a few aren't worth the soulstones when compared to some other models.

[ravenborne]

The Nurse has a lot of problems. I know, I know there are all kinds of amusing shenanigans you can pull with her, but my biggest issue with her is that she is slow and so many of her abilities require you to be right up next to the target. I'm sure people are going to want to argue this, but she isn't worth 5 SS to me.

[nix]

Wendigo

When your Master is all about killing things with spell damage, how could this totem compete with the Essence of Power? Maybe I'm missing something, but I've certainly never seen someone using this model over the essence.

Not a defense of the little guy, but he is the cheapest way to get grave-robber in your list if your going to Avatar. Its always good for Raspy to have corpse counters on the table when she avatars, even if you end up losing this guy when you manifest. This will likely be over-shadowed once the Blessed comes out.

[nilus]

I will hold out my official judgement for when they come out but I think the Latigo Pistoleros are a big miss. Sure they are cheap, but they just don't look like the are going to perform well compared to other models . I think it all comes down to the Desperate Mercs are a better buy again.

[CannonFodder]

Good

Wendigo: People conciser him useless because the Essence of power give consistent hitting force. But I like it because it relatively fast, and if you want to spam Ice Pillars over a an objective he can Channel it each turn away from Raspy.

Overpriced

Bishop: Always overpriced. If they made another models Rare 3 with a cost reduction (-1SS) with Bishop in play then would be balanced.

ALP: not 100% sure on this but since the Errata people say not worth it. If they didn't gain insignificant they would still see play. Personally I havn't seen then hit paly since the erratas.

Rusty Allice: As Merc for Ramos, too expensive with her +2 for out of faction ability.

Freikorps Librarian: Again as a merc in another faction, the +2SS is just a hair too much.

Steamborg Executioner: I don't remember the last time I played him, people always for for arachnid swarm instead. Now with Large steampunk arachnids, 2 LSA are better the the borg.

Rogue Necromancy: GREAT as a summonable model, When was the last time anyone paid for him though.

[Nephalumps]

Models I've used that are case weights, barring a rule re-write:

- Myranda: A jack-of-all-trades, but none of her abilities are really worth it. Her spell list is poor (primarily due to there being almost no good spells for her to use via Animal Instincts,) her combat ability is pathetic for her SS cost, and her Shapechange ability is way too resource intensive/finicky for how little of a gain it gives you.

I've said it before: Myranda would probably rock house if she was a Book 2 model. Wyrd's designers seemed to be a lot more comfortable with their game at that point, and her abilities feel like a "beta" build of a character that could be much better realized and be more effective with some rules polish.

- Razorspine Rattler: He's a fire and forget missile, but it's threat range isn't even that impressive anymore, and his damage output isn't enough to offset the high probability of it dying after it gets its big charge off.

My take: make it cheaper, or make Poison not a trigger (more in favor of the latter, as it is a giant snake. )

- Sabretooth Cerberus: Too expensive for being essentially a one-shot model. It can definitely dump out a lot of attacks, but without Paired anything or triggers to make your opponent sweat, its not all that scary. Plus, you get one big turn out of it, and then its either going to die or get whacked hard enough to have two it's heads pop off.

My take: keep the cost as is, but find some triggers for this poor guy! Doesn't even need to be anything crazy, but triggers are fun and it's damn near criminal that an 8 SS combat model has zero melee weapon triggers.

- Hoarcat Pride: Fun idea, but the implementation winds up being really harsh. One half decent hit and the kitties are reduced to trying to nibble their target to death and praying for Eat Your Fill to get them back into shape. Harmless on a model without a way to regain it is kinda lame.

My take: Give them a standard damage track (nothing crazy - 2/3/4?) and change Hungry Pride to give them to damage flips when they're above half health, or something like that. Alternatively: give them a (0) action that allows them to regain Harmless, so that they have some kind of defensive ability to offset how horribly fragile they are.

[CannonFodder]

last comment on Hoarcat pride. They are not great in singles or duos. I think if swarmed are best. you need at least 4 to make the best advantage of thier ability to Devour ht2 models.

1= not worth it

2= easy to take out 1, leaving other without ability

3= you will make an attempt devour at least once on an HT 2 model

4= multiple chances available.

[Sliver Chocobo]

Walgues, to slow, only worth it for Alilith, who should hit her Avatar on her 5 or 6, not early. So two turns don't do it for me

[Dumb Luck]

Everyone seems to be forgetting the Warpig here. Same points as Ophelia but doesn't gel with the crew as well, doesn't hit very hard and most importantly ,has no protection.

[osoi]

Overpriced

Bishop: Always overpriced. If they made another models Rare 3 with a cost reduction (-1SS) with Bishop in play then would be balanced.

Freikorps Librarian: Again as a merc in another faction, the +2SS is just a hair too much.

Rogue Necromancy: GREAT as a summonable model, When was the last time anyone paid for him though.

Bishop: Not always the first choice but is useful in some builds and I like using him in my Outcast crews because people see him as below par

Friekorps Librarian: Use her as a merc with Sonnia and shes worth the +2ss cost (I imagine Raspy would be similar)

Rogue Necromancy: Hiring in a Resser crew, with Molly and potentially Kirai yes I would. McMourning and Nicodem probably not. But I would also hire him in a Marcus crew without a second thought.

[dsmiles]

Bishop: Not always the first choice but is useful in some builds and I like using him in my Outcast crews because people see him as below par.

He does offer some interesting battlefield control-type options. I haven't used him in a crew yet, but I see the possibilities.

[Math Mathonwy]

Terrible is such a heavy word, that I would leave some of the ones mentioned off the list since they are bad but not quite terrible territory. Being about a soul stone overpriced isn't terrible IMO.

Walgues, to slow, only worth it for Alilith, who should hit her Avatar on her 5 or 6, not early. So two turns don't do it for me

man what

[Turbodog]

I totally misunderstood the title of this thread. I opened it thinking, oh this will be novel. A thread where we can comment on which models' cards have goofy to understand rules and/or wordings. I was about to put down Ryle as my number one choice. But that's not what this thread is about at all!

[Koyote]

Among the Rezzer models, one of my top picks for this category would have to be the Guild Autopsy. I LOVE the models but hate the rules. The GA is slow, easy to wound (literally), it's mediocre Guard Pistol CB cannot be raised, and it doesn't produce a Corpse Counter when it expires. From a summoner's point of view, why waste the Action Point and Corpse Counter when you can summon a sturdy and reliable Punk Zombie or Crooked Man (THAT WILL LEAVE BEHIND A CORPSE COUNTER)? During Crew Creation, why spend 3 SS on model that's probably worth 2 SS? Sure, the Guild Autopsy has a special ability against Guardsmen, but that is only a small sliver of adversaries one might face.

With this said, I have found a way to incorporate these splendid models into my Rezzers Crew....

Edited February 4, 2012 by Koyote

[Justin]

I'm going to go ahead and say the Desperate Mercenary.

Why, you ask?

Well, I shall tell you!

How often have you heard the phrase, "Yeah, but the desperate mercenary does the same thing, for cheaper..."

Although a fantastic model with awesome abilities for its price, I contend that it causes more "terrible" overall than any singular underwhelming model.

Desperation is an ugly thing, people.

[JisaacT]

I'd have to say Jack Daw. I've read that page in a book so many times and his rules still confuse me.

[Wolfgar]

Tactically Jack Daw seems useful, but his rules can be a bit headscratching at times.

[magicpockets]

Agree with a lot of this. To add -

1. I think Crooligans should be a 3ss model with a slightly changed rule balance.

2. I think since book 2 Bad JuJu is overpriced/underpowered for 10ss (it was close in book 1)

3. I'm not sure about Molemen and where there use in now (maybe should be 2ss like CRs?)

4. And I think the Ice Golem is very expensive at 9ss, he's never struck me as being particularly useful for the money

[dsmiles]

4. And I think the Ice Golem is very expensive at 9ss, he's never struck me as being particularly useful for the money

Dead on. The Ice Golem is a pretty sculpt, but for 9ss, I want more than a pretty face. I haven't actually used him in a Raspy crew yet.

[OtherSpencer]

@koyote: I definitely agree. Love the sculpt and it's a shame about rules. It's like he got smacked 2x with the easy to wound and no counter left. I'd he just ha the no counter but had h2w like a normal zombie than I'd be tempted to use them more.

@ pockets: couldn't agree more with bad juju. He's the only model that is left out of my bags for space knowing I'm not going to use him anyway.

[Fetid Strumpet]

In my opinion, Seamus is pretty weak, which is a shame because he is one of my favorite masters.

In the current environment there are too many non-living models running around, which takes away one of his key abilities.

He really isn't that difficult to kill, which again was one of his supposed strengths. With Hard to Wound 2 and a low Def he dies every other game just about from multiple attacks that hope for the triple negative twist dmg flip which pulls up the Red Joker.

Once he's in combat he loses his most effective way to heal, Live for Pain, and his most effective way to cause Dmg, the Flintlock, and with Def 4 he isn't getting out of combat very easily.

He is pretty slow, with a walk of 4 and no shenanigans he himself can use use to dart around the table. Sure his Belles can pull him around, but Belles can pull any Master that can use them around.

No real synergy with his crew, as he doesn't provide them with any real killing power, doesn't make them much better, and his best control ability, "Undead Psychosis" is very situational at best. Especially since a good number of the minions that are often advised to be taken with him, convict Gunslinger, Night Terrors, Desperate Mercs, are all living models, as is he.

A very low SS cache, which I think was given to him because he had the Talent "Fast", which in the first book only Perdita and Seamus had access to. This means that not only is Seamus not supporting the crew all that well, but he has to take an even smaller crew if he wants to bring in SS to help offset his terrible Def and Cb. Or he can bring a bigger crew and gimp himself further.

Overall he strikes me as a control oriented master who due to the way the game evolved got left behind.

If I declare Ressers as a faction I can't think of a strategy that could be selected that Kirai or McMorning can't do better at. I totally realize it might just be me who can't wrap my head around how to get Seamus to work right, but pretty much anytime I play him it feels like Seamus himself never does anything worthwhile.

[dsmiles]

If I declare Ressers as a faction I can't think of a strategy that could be selected that Kirai or McMorning can't do better at. I totally realize it might just be me who can't wrap my head around how to get Seamus to work right, but pretty much anytime I play him it feels like Seamus himself never does anything worthwhile.

I am now rethinking my choice of masters for my second resser master. I may go with McM instead of Seamus. (But I already have Molly, who compliments Seamus so nicely with her Belle summoning.) Decisions, decisions.

[Fetid Strumpet]

I know, Seamus and Molly are the Models that really got me as interested in Malifaux as I am. I really feel bad when crew selection time runs around and I think:

"Ok, who should I pick, Seamus?... Guess I'll run Kirai."

Don't get me wrong, Kirai is one of my favorite masters as well, I love her look, fluff, and what she does, I just wish there were more games where I could take Seamus and feel good about playing him, even if I lost.

I think I'd enjoy him more if he were more of a presence in the game, if it felt like he brought something really important to the table. But at least in my games with him he just doesn't. Again, maybe it is just my lack of skill with a master that needs someone with a better understanding of how to use him. Maybe when the horrors are fleshed out they'll give something to his crews that make him competitive again.

[Math Mathonwy]

I am now rethinking my choice of masters for my second resser master. I may go with McM instead of Seamus. (But I already have Molly, who compliments Seamus so nicely with her Belle summoning.) Decisions, decisions.

IMO Molly works better with McM than with Seamus.

She gives movement, which is of more use to McM generally than to Seamus. She gives access to a totem (since McM's totem tends to be short-lived) and her abilities make for a more rounded force when coupled with the damage dealing capabilities of McM as opposed to the... sorta lackluster approach of Seamus.

I believe that the true trouble with Seamus is his low SS cache and his reliance on having living opponents.