Hardest Master to master?

[Vlad the Mad]

Haven't got much playing time with her yet, but out of the ten or so masters I own, I have the most problems grasping Colette and the showgirls - there always seem to be more options and choices available than I initially thought!

Leveticus was one of my first masters, and I agree he is hard to master. Not only because of his "rebirth" abilities, but also because you can play a lot of different crew setups with him effectively. Somehow I never seem to get enough practice with one setup in order to really master it.

No idea about hardest to win though. I've neither played with or against Marcus, Som'er or any other of the so-called "underpowered" masters, and never really felt that any difficulty in accomplishing a mission was due to some inherent property of my master, but rather the result of my bad choices in crew selection, activation order or other in-game options.

[rancor709]

The hardest master/henchman to learn imho is pandora. Figuring out how she works compared to standard masters takes time and its almost a totally different game. Hardest to win with aside from molly, I'd say master wise its tough to get a big win in most scenarios with masters like lady j and lilith. They hit like freight trains but a majority of strates and schemes don't focus on killing. There simply don't have a lot of tricks and from an opponent stand point if I know what your going to do its easier to counter.

[Buck Dog]

Three pages in and no mention of Som'er ?

[Orboros]

Three pages in and no mention of Som'er ?

I think the thing with Som'er is that you can built a variety of different lists with him. Ranging from a simple Gremlin gunline to a complex "summoning factory", you can built a crew really how you want. Wich doesn't have to be challenging but can be at times. But yeah he is quite difficult to master.

[011121]

I only have Pandora and Collodi, but I have to say they have been very difficult to use. I've yet to win with Collodi, but I havent used him much. Having hemchmen with 2-3 wds sucks lol. Pandora is a double-edged sword. She rapes face when she works, but can easily be squished if something goes wrong. And if she isnt with her crew, then the damage output is very limited...

I've had very good luck with Collodi. Have you read the pullmyfinger article on him? He's basically an ambush predator. He (meaning him plus marionettes plus wicked dolls) moves insanely fast and dishes out tons of small attacks. The problem is, if you strike and fail to cripple the enemy, you're pretty fragile for return strikes. Marionettes are your lifeblood as they are collodi's movement, his defense, and his offense (with wicked dolls helping). Sorry if I'm just telling you things you already know. I haven't tried him with effigies.

Edited December 26, 2011 by 011121

[Wolfgar]

By contrast, the "simple" Masters - generally the straight-up face-smashy ones like the Viktorias or Lady Justice - are only simple to learn because they have basically no tricks. Sure, they're great at smashing face, but hardly any part of actually winning the game is about smashing face unless you happen to draw Slaughter. When you have a crew that can only do one thing, working out how to make them do everything else is the bit that actually makes them harder to master than the crews who can do everything.

I can support this idea. Face-smashy masters are easy to use, certainly, but can be difficult to utilize.

[schristofersen]

I'm finding Levi way more difficult to wrap my head around than the other masters I've tried. He has the appearance of an extremely strong master but I just can't find my stride with him yet.

[dbr_83]

I've had very good luck with Collodi. Have you read the pullmyfinger article on him? He's basically an ambush predator. He (meaning him plus marionettes plus wicked dolls) moves insanely fast and dishes out tons of small attacks. The problem is, if you strike and fail to cripple the enemy, you're pretty fragile for return strikes. Marionettes are your lifeblood as they are collodi's movement, his defense, and his offense (with wicked dolls helping). Sorry if I'm just telling you things you already know. I haven't tried him with effigies.

As stated previously, I haven't used him all that often. I'm planning on using him with some sub-minis for Widow Weaver and a few effigies. I know he has fantastic speed and can disable (especially constructs) with ease, but using that to take/hold objectives would take some finesse and learning I'd imagine

Also, I haven't read you pullmyfinger wiki on him, but shall right now =)

[Q'iq'el]

Hardest to learn is not the same thing as hardest to master.

IMO Levi isn't that hard to master - just like Colette it takes long time to learn him, but then you have a very powerful crew which struggles only in some Strategies and only against specific opponents. This sort of applies to all Book 2 masters as well - hard to learn, easy to master.

Easy to learn, but hard to master is exactly Marcus, probably Tina. Perhaps even Lilith to a degree.

[Omenbringer]

and give Von Schill a more Freikorps based crew that is good.

I would argue that Vonschill is actually quite good right now (he has the largest pool of models of any of the Henchman, additionally you cant get much more friekorps based than just friekorps with him). Would love some more stuff for him but dont really think he needs a lot more.

No idea about hardest to win though. I've neither played with or against Marcus, Som'er or any other of the so-called "underpowered" masters, and never really felt that any difficulty in accomplishing a mission was due to some inherent property of my master, but rather the result of my bad choices in crew selection, activation order or other in-game options.

This is a very common problem with virtually any master/ crew.

Three pages in and no mention of Som'er ?

Some'r really isn't that weak of a Master (maybe not top tier, but definately not bottom either), especially once you learn his tricks. There are not actually that many bad match ups for him and his crew (that intelligent initial build, scheme choices and ingame transitioning cant overcome).

Edited December 27, 2011 by Omenbringer

[Wolfgar]

Would love some more stuff for him but dont really think he needs a lot more.

I love more stuff for everybody, all the time.

[SteamPants]

Some'r really isn't that weak of a Master (maybe not top tier, but definately not bottom either), ...

Out of curiosity, because I'm new to this game ,which Masters and Henchmen do you guys consider top, middle, and bottom tier?

This is weird, but when I first read the title of this thread, I thought of the song "The Hardest Button to Button" by the White Stripes. Yeah, my mind is goofy sometimes.

Edited December 27, 2011 by SteamPants

[dsmiles]

I love more stuff for everybody, all the time.

So do I. That's why I'm always broke.

[dbr_83]

SteamPants: it all depends on the master/crew you are opposing at the time. I play Pandora, and she can easily be over or underpowered depending on my opponent and what I have in her crew.

In my experience, Malifaux is more about finding something that grabs your attention (be it turning hulking super-men into weak mewling kittens, red-heads with big breasts and a bigger sword, or a legion of undead ladies-of-the-night) and having fun... The devil is in the details, and almost any crew has the ability to be more then a match for your opponent if built right. And of course, the inverse is true as well.

[Kadeton]

This is weird, but when I first read the title of this thread, I thought of the song "The Hardest Button to Button" by the White Stripes. Yeah, my mind is goofy sometimes.

Man, I know exactly what you mean. That song pops into my head every time this thread comes up.

[micahwc]

Hardest to win with aside from molly, I'd say master wise its tough to get a big win in most scenarios with masters like lady j and lilith. They hit like freight trains but a majority of strates and schemes don't focus on killing. There simply don't have a lot of tricks and from an opponent stand point if I know what your going to do its easier to counter.

I have to politely disagree with this. Lilith is great at smashing face, but that is not all she does. She is +1 fast with a 6 inch movement which helps a lot with the non-killy schemes and strategies. She also has Master of Malifaux, which lets her ignore most terrain movement penalties.

She is also a very defensive master. She can hold a line very well with her high defense and the ability to make forests in inconvenient places. She can litterally move half the board in one activation and completely change the pace of the battle with this.

[Nephalumps]

Hardest to learn is not the same thing as hardest to master.

IMO Levi isn't that hard to master - just like Colette it takes long time to learn him, but then you have a very powerful crew which struggles only in some Strategies and only against specific opponents. This sort of applies to all Book 2 masters as well - hard to learn, easy to master.

Easy to learn, but hard to master is exactly Marcus, probably Tina. Perhaps even Lilith to a degree.

I agree much more with this definition.

While some Masters are difficult to use or become familiar with, if that Master has a number of useful tools and/or options (all of the Book 2 Masters, for example,) then they usually are much easier to "master" in terms of usage. You usually have an answer for most situations built right into the rules on your card, so once you learn when to use each ability, you're mostly set.

Masters that are much more "bare bones" are much harder to "master" (which I define as: "use well in any situation",) because you have to squeeze every ounce of juice out of their limited ability sets. This can require a lot of out of the box thinking, as well as careful/flexible crew construction, and lots of practice.

Part of this also has to do with what Minions are available for each Master - one of the reasons that Molly keeps coming up is because her crew options right now (when she's leading, anyways,) are very limited, and very focused. Doing well with that crew in a variety of situations will require lots and lots of practice, because you'll need to be able to get every ounce of utility out of the models you have.

Similarly, Marcus. While I've found Marcus himself very capable, his Minion selection has driven me insane. I recently switched back to my Lilith crew as a change of pace, and I remembered her crew being similarly difficult to use in Book 1 (though Lilith herself is pretty powerful.) However, having access to the Book 2 Nephalim models makes that crew an engine of destruction, because of the wealth of options I have now.

While both crews share a similar style (speedy beatdown,) one feels much, much harder to master (Marcus) than the other (Lilith.)

[ukrocky]

Similarly, Marcus. While I've found Marcus himself very capable, his Minion selection has driven me insane. I recently switched back to my Lilith crew as a change of pace, and I remembered her crew being similarly difficult to use in Book 1 (though Lilith herself is pretty powerful.) However, having access to the Book 2 Nephalim models makes that crew an engine of destruction, because of the wealth of options I have now.

Sorry, not tryna troll, but I don't really understand how Lilith becomes an engine of destruction courtesy of the wealth of options, when Marcus surely has more?

[011121]

I don't know if this is what he meant but you could make an argument that Lilith's usual troops (all the nephilim) have a lot of options but are also very focused and synergize together well. On the other hand Marcus has a huge number of options but they're much more hit and miss as to whether they actually work together.

[micahwc]

Lilith has fewer options but most of her options work really well independently, and get better when paired with her other options. The nephilim are generally good minions and they have a lot of synergy with each other which makes them even better.

[Q'iq'el]

Lilith has fewer options but most of her options work really well independently, and get better when paired with her other options. The nephilim are generally good minions and they have a lot of synergy with each other which makes them even better.

What synergy with each other?

Unless you speak about Twins, which is significant, but also limited to Twins, there is very little direct synergy (as far as Malifaux standards go) between Nephilim and it is typically very limited (like Nekima giving only minor benefits to the crew and really helping just Tots and Young).

There is some indirect synergy in that they all more or less contribute to the positional play-style of the crew, but that is no different to Marcus and he does have more choices.

To be fair though, I don't think having more choices changes a lot here - the selection affects the availability of certain tools in your crew, but in case of both masters it doesn't change much how the crew plays or approaches Strategies and I think (though I may be lacking in Marcus experience here) they are remarkably similar in this aspect.

Edited December 29, 2011 by Q'iq'el

[ukrocky]

@Q'iq'el - Half of the Marcus game is selecting the right crew, playing Destroy the evidence? Get some slurrids. Playing Reccon? Get some night terrors. Playing Slaughter? Get Kaeris. (And so on), whereas with Lilith she doesn't change what she does much in her crew selection, ie, rip their lil baby face off.

[Q'iq'el]

@Q'iq'el - Half of the Marcus game is selecting the right crew, playing Destroy the evidence? Get some slurrids. Playing Reccon? Get some night terrors. Playing Slaughter? Get Kaeris. (And so on), whereas with Lilith she doesn't change what she does much in her crew selection, ie, rip their lil baby face off.

Well, this is not exactly what I'm talking about.

Sure, you choose the minions for the mission, because you have that choice. But after that you do not use synergies between these minions and your master the way Colette or Dreamer does. You use their own abilities to move fast, grab objectives etc.

But the way you approach the game doesn't change - it is always basic movement and direct superiority needed to win the combat, when you have to fight.

Lilith may have smaller selection of tools, but there too is a big difference in tools between Nekima + 5 Tots (5 Young) and a Shaman+Twins crew.... but the crew still plays the same game - you deploy your minions, you try to create a situation where opponent cannot outmaneuver you and then you gang up on him using superior charging ability of your seemingly spread out crew.

I mean this is huge oversimplification in both cases, but the point is neither of the crews resembles Zoraida or Som'er, where the choice of the minions can completely change the way your crew deals with the Strategies at hand. They play the same, just use different tools.

[micahwc]

Lilith may have smaller selection of tools, but there too is a big difference in tools between Nekima + 5 Tots (5 Young) and a Shaman+Twins crew.... but the crew still plays the same game - you deploy your minions, you try to create a situation where opponent cannot outmaneuver you and then you gang up on him using superior charging ability of your seemingly spread out crew.

Point taken. To be fair though, adding an auto-flay ability to the 5 young (or even tots) makes them much more deadly. This ability to me suggest synergy. Or I suppose buffing would be the right word?

I don't think that Lilith belongs to the "hardest master to master list" as someone suggested earlier. She is among the fastest minions of book 1 and can keep up reasonably well with the book 2 masters. Thus, she can reach and claim objectives easily. I have played many games where she killed very little and spent most of the game getting VP while her crew engaged my opponent.

For me, Zoraida was much harder to learn than Lilith. Just a different play style. Peredita was also difficult for me because I started with Lilith, and while they are similar, they are not the same.

Thus I suggest that the hardest master to master is the master which plays fundamentally different from whatever master you are the most comfortable with.

[ukrocky]

the point is neither of the crews resembles Zoraida or Som'er' date=' where the choice of the minions can completely change the way your crew deals with the Strategies at hand. They play the same, just use different tools.[/quote']

Sorry, still not sure what you mean here, I don't think Lilith plays anything like Marcus, and the choice of minions does completely change the way your crew deals with the strategies for Marcus.

Sorry!