Counting Cards - Is it worth the Effort?

[Kael Hate]

Most people would have heard of the game Blackjack (aka 21 or variant Pontoon). This game is reknown for Maths players to out perform the house advantage by using a method known as counting cards. This works in general by gambling harder when it is known that the deck of cards has been depleted in such a way that you are more likely to make an easier win.

The Same thing is Plausible in Malifaux.

Do you Play knowing the contents of the decks or follow the ancient Game method in Malifaux form "He who flips the most cards wins"?

Edited December 15, 2011 by Kael Hate

[Justin]

I find it sort of hard not to have a good general idea of what cards are left in my deck after some play. But I don't actively count them, because I'm lazy.

Also:

http://wyrd-games.net/forum/showthread.php?t=15485&highlight=card+counting

[Twisted Metal]

If you want to put forth the effort go ahead and try. I think it would be far more difficult to count cards in an advantageous way in Malifaux. When you count cards in blackjack most people will use a + or - system where the plus is SLIGHTLY in the players favor. By slightly i mean it could be as little as half a percent. Also in black jack your only trying to reach the target number of 21 and therefor close is normally good enough. This isn't the case in Malifaux. You not only need to meet that number but you need the proper suit as well. This means that if your going to count the cards your also going to have to try an remember which suits remain. Add in trying to focus on the actual game and you have a big chore on your hands if you use the blackjack method of counting. Also keep in mind that just because the deck is in your favor it is still a big gamble. As I said before a favorable deck will only increase your percentage by a small margin. Blackjack player are able to use this small percentage in their favor only because of the sheer number of hands they play. If they lose the gamble it's no big deal they will just keep playing indeffinatly till the odds even out and they are ahead. You don't have that luxury in Malifaux. Often times in Malifaux if you lose the gamble you lose the model.

Now I'm not saying you shouldn't keep track of cards like jokers and 13 because it's always nice to know where they are. I'm just not willing to take a large gamble in this game because I think the deck is favorable.

Edited December 15, 2011 by Twisted Metal

[AdrianMills]

Don't count cards but I will always keep a black joker in my hand (If Drawn). Unless I have a flesh construct which needs fast for some reason.

[dsmiles]

If I wanted to play a game about math, I'd break out my Apple IIe and play Math Blaster.

I don't count cards at all, it ruins my fun.

[ukrocky]

I would never card count and I was always discard the blackjoker the turn after I get it!

[Oshova]

I don't count, but without trying you can usually remember that you've used one or both of the jokers up. Knowing that the Black Joker isn't in the rest of the deck, means you can get in those hits knowing you will do damage if you hit. Then when it comes to the face cards, you can usually think that there might be some left, but that is only really when it comes down to the last few cards, and if you've burned through the high cards going through the deck, you're probably (read hopefully) doing enough damage in the right places.

And I will always stick to trying to flip as many cards as possible, and causing my opponents to flip cards for no reason (Terrifying, Hard to Wound etc)

[Stonedog-7]

I'll keep half an eye on whether the jokers have gone past that turn... and maybe half on eye on high cards for a suit i particularly need (eg tomes for Ramos, crows for Kirai/McMourning) but it's too easy to get distracted from it by the game and after all, you're not allowed to go through your discard pile to check anything so i often forget, seeing whether literally 5 cards have gone past (11, 12, 13 of a single suit, red joker & black joker) is about my limit

So no, don't really count cards as such, but do keep an eye on what's been turning up if i know i need a high card of a particular suit

Black Joker, i'll keep generally just for 1 turn in my hand, it removes it from the equation for 2 game turns but any longer and i don't like the potential it's taking up even if it comes back to bite me a couple of turns later

[micahwc]

I keep a general and rough idea of how many high to low cards have been flipped. I know if more high cards have been played than low cards, etc. This is not a scientific count, but just a general idea.

I almost always keep the black joker and just play with one less card.

I do count the 1's, 12's, and 13's when I remember to.

[Cadilon]

I keep a general and rough idea of how many high to low cards have been flipped. I know if more high cards have been played than low cards, etc. This is not a scientific count, but just a general idea.

I do count the 1's, 12's, and 13's when I remember to.

I find myself in this camp as well.

[JayBarlekamp]

I'm with Rocky on this one. The best games of malifaux are the ones where something unexpected happens. Holding the black joker to increase your chance of winning, reduces your chance of having something amazing happen.

[nilus]

I would never card count and I was always discard the blackjoker the turn after I get it!

Me too, I have found getting an extra in my hand is way more beneficial then purposefully reducing my hand size by one for the whole game.

Edit: Also this thread will only bring madness and pain. I suggest we all walk away before the heat starts to rise

[Ratty]

I just keep track of special cards... eg 10+ crows when playing Seamus

[Mr_Smigs]

I just keep track of special cards... eg 10+ crows when playing Seamus

which is depressing since i remember the last time this came up, it was declared by the rules guys that card counting = cheating.

Easy.

You don't do it here.

If you need to find ways to count cards, which in my own view is cheating, then you should look elsewhere on how to do so.

I'm sure you can find how-to guides for this sort of shenanigans somewhere on the internet.

[Keltheos]

which is depressing since i remember the last time this came up, it was declared by the rules guys that card counting = cheating.

There's a pretty clear difference between mentally keeping track of whether a couple cards have been used and 'card counting' the ways it was discussed in that thread.

If you're defining me (and probably every other player) as a card counter (and by your out of context definition, a cheater) when I mentally keep track of how many Jokers are in my or my opponent's discard pile then you missed the entire thread's point.

That's like saying every Joe Tourist visiting Las Vegas should be arrested for card counting when they try to remember how many 10s have been pulled out of a single-deck blackjack game.

[Cats Laughing]

If tourneys were for real money (ie: gambling amounts) then I'd either bother with counting cards (or not play at all).

But I just play for fun, so I don't bother with counting cards (as useful as it might be), though I do occasionally note when a black or red joker has been used by either side.

[BlueStar86]

I tend to just play the game, whatever card is on top, is what's on top, no amount of work I do can change it. I don't keep track of the cards in the discard pile, or even the ones in my hand.

I'll keep a the jokers in my hand until I need the red one, and on more than one occasion I've got what I call a "cheater's hand", despite not actually cheating. Bad enough it looks like I stack my deck sometimes, though on more than one occasion it looked like I stacked it the wrong way, and I couldn't do anything.

What I consider a "cheater's hand" is when everything I have is above 10, and/or when I have 3 or more 13s in my hand, this also tends to include one of the jokers or more, and I've gotten this more than once to my dismay. I say to my dismay, because I tend to run Friekorps Librarians, I have to discard a card to make them work, and I don't want to.

To make thigns worse, I tend to get these in games I'm already utterly dominating (also to my dismay, I like getting kicked around, it let's me know what my opponent is capable of for future games.), and I don't think that's very fun for my opponent either.

Edited December 15, 2011 by BlueStar86

[ucfan34]

One thing I'll point out that's sort of relevant, is that Vegas doesn't use just one standard deck of 52 cards. I may be mistaken, but I believe Black Jack is played with 6 decks.

Keeping track of 52(or 54) cards isn't really that hard with a bit of effort, but other than making a mental note of the jokers or important trigger cards why bother. It's just a game.

The randomness of the outcome combined with a players ability to semi-control the outcome is part of the fun.

[Keltheos]

One thing I'll point out that's sort of relevant, is that Vegas doesn't use just one standard deck of 52 cards. I may be mistaken, but I believe Black Jack is played with 6 decks.

Depends on the casino. You have some with single deck, some with 6 deck shoes, some with 6 deck continually-shuffling shoes, and some in between.

[WEiRD sKeTCH]

which is depressing since i remember the last time this came up, it was declared by the rules guys that card counting = cheating.

If you're going to quote me, do so in the correct context.

That was about looking for methods of counting cards. Don't do it on the forum.

And I also stated that "which in my own view is cheating" states a personal view and not an official view.

In other words.

Fixt.

[Mr_Smigs]

If you're going to quote me, do so in the correct context.

That was about looking for methods of counting cards. Don't do it on the forum.

And I also stated that "which in my own view is cheating" states a personal view and not an official view.

In other words.

Fixt.

so then...

what is the official stance of Wyrd on card counting in tournament play?

because threads like this only end up encouraging people to do it, when no official stance against it is taken.

[Ratty]

Mr. Smigs how would you suggest moderating Card Counting in tournaments. As far as I know you can't go into the players heads and check whether they have remembered what card they played 2 minutes ago. As long as it's not slowing down play, they are not looking back through their deck and they are not using external devices like paper or a Android device I don't see how you can stop card counting.

[Mr_Smigs]

Mr. Smigs how would you suggest moderating Card Counting in tournaments. As far as I know you can't go into the players heads and check whether they have remembered what card they played 2 minutes ago. As long as it's not slowing down play, they are not looking back through their deck and they are not using external devices like paper or a Android device I don't see how you can stop card counting.

how do they regulate and identify card counting in casinos?

really, the question isn't "can we police card counting"

the question is, "does Wyrd try to discourage card counting"

you're absolutely correct. proof is difficult, if not possible.

but rules like the stacked discard pile, imply that card counting is not acceptable in the game.

this is the same discussion as linked already.

that once you say "card counting is OK" you open the door to all sorts of further discussion on it... including what tools are acceptable and why...

it goes round and round and ends no where if the people who designed the game, and support the tournaments make no official stance if it's allowed or not.

you'll get the "anyone can do it" crowd

and the "it takes training, and isn't intuitive" crowd

as well as the "card counters are jackasses" crowd

and the "if you can count cards, why can we pre-measure" group... and dozens of others...

but none are right unless a sold "yes" or "no" on the issue is handed down from above.

[Keltheos]

We should also have a long paragraph or two on Deck manipulation and stacking the deck while shuffling or drawing from the bottom as well as swapping out cards for extra 10s or Jokers, as well as entries on what happens if you don't tracking damage correctly, or 'forgetting' a model is paralyzed, or not applying Poison damage, etc.

At some point there's a trust factor that should be implicit in any game, especially those where cards are involved. Just like you trust an opponent to roll dice in a manner that doesn't give them an advantage, but there's no spelled out method for how to roll, the distance the dice should bounce, how many rotations they make, is a cup and shake legal, but a cup and drop not, and so forth...

the question is, "does Wyrd try to discourage card counting"

If the rules themselves and our replies here it still aren't clear...well...

Edited December 15, 2011 by Keltheos

[Mike3838]

Proper card counting is completely useless in this game. Absolutely completely and totally useless.

The only thing that might benefit you is keeping a mental note of which useful cards have already been flipped. That's only slightly useful at best, and I'm sure everyone does it to some extent.

And holding onto the black joker is a bit silly.

Mike