Candy and Kade - Why bother?

[iamthefly]

Hi,

It seems to me that everything the kids can do the twins can do better at the same price. Lelu is a much better beatstick than Kade and Lilutu can heal and float like Candy can heal and Run Away Home, plus there's Double take and the +4WP on the target trick.

Last night I ran all 4 models with Pandora at 30ss and the Twins outstripped the kids again.

What am I missing?

Cheers,

iamthefly

[Seventeen]

Great thread!

--grabs popcorn waiting for the action...!--

[Ratty]

If you don't have the points to field both Lelu and Lelitu, they don't really work. So Candy on her own or Kade by himself are a viable choice still I feel.

[iamthefly]

Well yeah I could see that on their own they might be viable if you have drawn a particular strategy.

Zoraia can just hex off the ability that makes the twins take wounds for when they miss eachother. Of course I was talking about Pandora earlier, but I kind of mean this as a wider thread than just Pandora.

So what you are saying is that if you can afford 14ss and have the twins models and the kids models, take the twins?

Edited October 8, 2011 by iamthefly

[magicpockets]

I've always struggles with candy and kade, I just can't get the points out of them if you know what I mean. Having said that, I was VERY late to the sorrows party so likely missing something. Hopefully Karn or someone will drop by with some advice

[Sliver Chocobo]

For Candy, most Acandy (with more Wd) other than that

Edit: Kade can get harmless and terrifying at the same time

Edited October 8, 2011 by Sliver Chocobo

[Mr. Bigglesworth]

They both have higher defense and are easier to hide and control when they come into the fight, both being height 1. They ate cheaper, and both have martyr AP they link up with sorrows if there is a need.

They both have great utility spells that synergizes with Pandora. They also have the 0 wp duel that helps with thousand cuts. They both have decent wk. Really they are probably seen less now so dismissed as weak by opponent. In slaughter they probably don't directly make points back as easily, but they usually don't give points away.

The twins are glass cannons and if someone can draw a bead on them they are likely lost. That is easy to avoid with their mobility or if you take in pairs.

Let's say you are taking on a lot of armor and large amounts of imi, ie Hoff. The twins become pretty useless, because they generally fill up the slots for sorrows. Being able to battle train up sorrows all over the board, each wp duel you are doing now is causing more wd than lelu with severe damage, and wp are usually lower. Also you have higher def models that are harder to target. The twins are a crutch. Try a book one Pandora crew and you will see there are a variety of ways of dominating with her.

Last point self loathing is probably one of the best spells in a Pandora crew, it causes damage and wounds for losing the duel and candy is the only minions to have it. Much better than going for double take.

[Hookers]

I don't think you are missing anything. The twins are better.

[nilus]

I wonder if the twins lost Woe would this make Candy and Kade better.

[Hookers]

well it would give them a niche purpose perhaps. i'd be a fan of if they lost nightmare too :santa:

[tadaka]

Eh simple fact is some of the book 2 models like the twins and stiched are just a little to good for cost. This overshadows some book 1 models that are good minions they just suffer from other better models being avalable. That means the only reason to take them over the twins is you like there look or fluff.

[iamthefly]

there's the rub, I do like Candy and Kade, I just can't seem to use them effectively. Particularly Kade just gets squished in combat. I've a Teddy arriving in the post some time, perhaps that will help.

Now for me the sorrows, when linked to Pandora, just allow my opponent to target Pandora indirectly, geting around her willpower duel and the twice I've used them they have died before making any impact on the game or any model, other than their own master getting wounded through them. I'm hardly the most skilled player so they probably arn't that bad for everyone.

Is there any way that Candy and Kade make the Sorrows better? Magicpockets hinted that above.

Edited October 8, 2011 by iamthefly

[Fetid Strumpet]

I disagree Mr. B, the twins are not Glass Cannons. A Glass Cannon is something that hits un-believably hard, but is exceptionally easy to destroy. The twins are not easy to destroy. In fact almost every tactica mentions how survivable they are because if you want to kill them you must kill one of them pretty much in one go or they will both heal close to full the next turn. You cannot be exceptionally survivable AND be a glass cannon.

For Comparison

Kade 6SS: Ht 1, Df 7, Harmless, 6 Wds.

Candy 8SS: Ht 1, Df 7, Harmless, Regret, Sweets, 8 Wds.

Lilitu: 7SS: Ht 2, Df 6, Irresistible, Same Malignant Force, Twisted Thoughts, 7 Wds.

Lelu: 7SS: Ht 2, Df 5, Same Malignant Force, Drink Blood, 9 Wds.

Most models don't do more than weak dmg on the average swing, in my experience. The wound counts are quite high on both Lelu and Lilitu and they both have a good Df value. They are not easier to kill than other models in the game, therefore I argue they should not be considered glass cannons.

On the OP point, really the only reason to take them is you like the look of the models if you compare them to the twins, or you only have 6 points for a melee model and cannot finagle the points to bring Lelu. Kade and Lelu both serve the same role in game, the same can be said of Candy vs. Lilitu.

Lelu is quite possibly the best melee minion in the game for what you spend on him. Even if Lelu hits you once for weak dmg and misses his other 2 attacks it is still possible for him to do 8 dmg to a model when you consider his poison, a possible flay, and then his Twisted Thoughts, and as you drop his wounds he gets even more deadly.

Kade costs 1 less SS and does MUCH less dmg, and is potentially as hard to kill. Depending on terrain Kade *might* be argued to be slightly more survivable because as a Ht 1 model he can hide behind terrain slightly better to protect himself from ranged attacks. This could be argued is offset by the number of abilities in the game that kill, sacrifice, or make irrelevant Ht 1 models.

Lilitu is possibly for her cost, the best control minion in the game. This one could be argued more closely then Lelu's command of the king of Melee minions. Rotten Belles do give a good bang for their buck, but I think Lilitu does take the edge because of the sheer # of her abilities that synergize so well.

Candy and Lilitu both have the same walk, but Lilitu floats while Candy needs to spend a 0 action and successfully cast one of her spells to have her ignore terrain. They can both heal a model within 2" but Candy's is a healing flip and also requires her to use her 0 Action. Lilitu's does a set 2 heal and doesn't require her to spend any of her actions as it automatically happens. True, Candy can spend hers early in the turn if she is close enough and Lilitu's happens at the end of the turn, but on sheer effectiveness and amount of healing I feel Lilitu's is better.

Lilitu is also harder to kill than Candy. Again you might make the argument that Candy is slightly better at avoiding ranged attacks because of her Ht 1, but an always active Irresistible vs. and need to be renewed Harmless, I know which I feel is better.

Add on to that the Same Malignant force which allows her Twisted Thoughts healing ability to do double duty + getting extra use from Lelu's regeneration.

Really at the bottom of it if you are comparing The Kids vs. The Twins there is absolutely no contest which pair is better.

Edited October 8, 2011 by Fetid Strumpet

[Murphy'sLawyer]

Well I have seen MrB. play the twins to their fullest potential with Pandora and I am not sure that list has been beat yet. He knows the Twins quite well.

That said when I see his twins I know Exactly what they can do and tend to work on disrupting their game style. Candy and Kade can work well ob their own while the Twins Need each other to get the job done. If I get a bead on one of them it will die and the other will very soon after that.

Of course he uses my knowledge to his advantage and sets another trap for me will I am disrupting the Twins.

I love the Twins, but if your meta figures out their weakness they will prevent them from reaching their full potential often.

[Math Mathonwy]

Well I have seen MrB. play the twins to their fullest potential with Pandora and I am not sure that list has been beat yet. He knows the Twins quite well.

That said when I see his twins I know Exactly what they can do and tend to work on disrupting their game style. Candy and Kade can work well ob their own while the Twins Need each other to get the job done. If I get a bead on one of them it will die and the other will very soon after that.

Of course he uses my knowledge to his advantage and sets another trap for me will I am disrupting the Twins.

I love the Twins, but if your meta figures out their weakness they will prevent them from reaching their full potential often.

So if you concentrate on killing the twins, you kill them easier than the kids when not concentrating on killing the kids. And you do this is because the twins are more dangerous. And, somehow, this makes the kids as good as the twins?

:confused: :confused: :confused:

That has to be the weirdest argument in favour of some minis I've ever seen.

[Mr. Bigglesworth]

Yes Ht 1 is one of the best defenses in the game if you play with a lot of terrain like the rules suggest, you can position them well enough where they can't have a bead drawn on them. As for the anti-ht1 abilities out there they are not as numerous as you make to believe. Also they generally target def and wp which both the little uns have better than average. ca 3 gaki to def 7 not seeing a threat.

I'm not saying that they are better than the twins, but there is plenty of reason to take them like against high armor lists. Also you miss the point that you only have to take one of the little uns instead of 2 of the twins to make them work, that in itself allows you to have more versatility in a list.

I make a strong argument for the little uns because too many people argue for the twins. Yes the twins are amazing I have played both lists with twins and little uns a lot and I have only lost one game with Pandora and it was against Cat (I was playing against Perdita and playing overly aggressive lesson learned) that list was with the twins. I should also add I have beaten Pandora each time I have played against her once with Lady J talking about grueling. Self loathing Lilth and Lady J is hilarious.

Look at the twins a little closer since can't hide them as well, and if they are highly expensive models it is not hard for your oppenent to out wait the activations and rush in a beat down one of them. A pack of 4 dogs, can take out a lelu or a liltu in one go. That is almost equal ss cost. Losing activation advantage can make for difficult play. I make these arguments from experience not theoryfaux.

Let's look at Candy's big defensive trigger regret, you can only do weak damage to her otherwise you can't target her again. No she can auto poison target do 2 wp duels good luck walking away from that.

Healing factor absolutely no contest twins have it, as stated many times if you don't kill them in one go it usually means they will be back to near full health.

Lilitu's lure is amazing along with the ability to pseudo companion lelu to jump into the fray, most things can not survive this, however usually has to be down on a model that hasn't activated and if it does survive you probably have a really $$$$$$$$ed off model that will hit back hard.

The reason there is a contest between the two is one has to come in a pair and the others do not.

Edited October 8, 2011 by Mr. Bigglesworth

[Ozz]

Yes, in a way that works, as if you are not focusing on anything everything is taking a little dmg and able to do stuff for longer, but requires you to decide what to try to protect. If your opponent focuses everything on 1 -2 models then its a lot harder to protect those models from so many attacks. Your hand just wont have that many high cards in most the time to make sure your safe most the time:) Or that's my understanding of that argument, strange as it may be, in my head it sort of works:)

Not saying they are as good in what they do, but saying they are as good in they likely survive longer to do their job.

[Sliver Chocobo]

I think the kids work best separately, if want a model to lure, but don't have enough points for the twins, you can just hire Candy without kade

[Mr. Bigglesworth]

So if you concentrate on killing the twins, you kill them easier than the kids when not concentrating on killing the kids. And you do this is because the twins are more dangerous. And, somehow, this makes the kids as good as the twins?

:confused: :confused: :confused:

That has to be the weirdest argument in favour of some minis I've ever seen.

That is not his argument, he is saying that it is something to compare between them. In no way is Murphy implying the little uns are better, but that they are comparable, might be less effective in most cases but doesn't make them a no-go.

[Mr. Bigglesworth]

I think the kids work best separately, if want a model to lure, but don't have enough points for the twins, you can just hire Candy without kade

Spot on the op is asking why, if it is between the pairs the twins will win ALMOST every time. If the question is why take them, the little uns give more crew variety because they don't have to be taken together, leaving more ss for things like stitched, doppleganger, sorrows insidious madness, alps (now that they are insignificant which I'm fine with I would never take them with Pandora), tots, and just about any other model available. Twins limit crew selection significantly because arguably they are better in a set of 3 or 4. And that is a lot of points, also against objective based strategies that can really hurt.

[Murphy'sLawyer]

That is not his argument, he is saying that it is something to compare between them. In no way is Murphy implying the little uns are better, but that they are comparable, might be less effective in most cases but doesn't make them a no-go.

This^.

The twins are very effective and I would normally bring them before the Kids. That said if you bring nothing but the Twins then the jig is up and your opponent's will hit you hard becuase most of your list will most likely be built around them.

Also Mr.B is a Very good player, especially with Pandora, and I find when I can tie him it was a good game. Even when I can destroy his first and second plans and forcing him to fall back on his last resort plan I feel like it is a good game.

But other players with the twins I have gone up against lose them quick and that normally destroys their strategy. So if you become predictable I know how to handle it.

Essentially I am no more afraid of the Twins than I am the Kids when in the right hands.

Edited October 8, 2011 by Murphy'sLawyer

[Ebonstar]

well it would give them a niche purpose perhaps. i'd be a fan of if they lost nightmare too :santa:

No, go the other way. Add construct, undead, beast, and mercenary and the only complaints we'll hear is that nobody can keep them in stock! :boom:

[micahwc]

Just to add some thoughts.

If the enemy is committing so many models to kill one of the twins, then those same models are not completing strategies and schemes. Unless of course the scheme is grudge against Lilitu, or kill protoge, etc.

[CannonFodder]

I plan on Baby Cade with Widow Weaver. This way when you summon a teddy, you can get it across the table right away with Cade (2) action switching the teddy.

[Calmdown]

Can we drop this "compare kids to twins" thing?

Twins only synergise with eachother mostly due to the fact you're almost forced to take two. And also to an extent because one pulls stuff in very well, the other kills it very well. It's not real synergy, it's just "they work well together" and you dont really have any choice.

Candy and Kade have *nothing* in common. They do not synergise at all. One is a melee model, one is a utility/support model. Just because they're both kids doesn't mean you should play them together.

Now...

You can pretty much discount Candy off the bat when building a list. Look at her stat card, look at her list of mediocre effects, look at her cost. She's not great (though still better than some poor book 1 minions). When you get to comparing her to Lilitu its even worse.

Kade is different, though. He's a 6 point melee expert (3 ap models for cheap = good). He has good speed. He's ht 1 (easy to creep up to enemies without them getting LoS). He has really high Df and Cb (very few models, if any, have 7 in both). His melee weapon has a poor damage line, but becomes tremendous with a Sweetbreads trigger. He has a cool defensive ability in harmless and a trigger to get it back. He has a further bit of defense in nearly-free terrifying. And he has a great (2) action that gives you a very high chance of hitting a target for great damage when you can get it off. Even martyr and teddy switching provide usefulness.

Not a single ability on him is wasted, and all of his abilities synergise really well. Very few 6 point models can say the same, from any book.

Edited October 19, 2011 by Calmdown