magicpockets Posted September 29, 2011 Report Share Posted September 29, 2011 Wow, just realised that because you get a ss back for each nightmare, effectively your first 5 Alps cost 2ss each. I've always "known" that, but just realised how serious that is lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sephiroa Posted September 29, 2011 Report Share Posted September 29, 2011 Sure. You could, for example, flip the Red Joker. It's also possible that my Hollow Waif will survive an attack by Lady Justice when I have no hand... it just seems unlikely :-P But yes, you're right on all counts above. But -3 is way worse than even -2. Honestly, I feel like limiting it to a - flip is a way to easily cuddle without really changing anything. about waif, wp9, you need a 3, some models, with a bit o luck can survive,, a master can burn the ss,, I'm not saying alp bomb is a fair thing, but there are some models who can survive it with some luck, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sephiroa Posted September 29, 2011 Report Share Posted September 29, 2011 ooh yeah another thing, jack daw, alp bomb gives wd, but jack is resistant to it, unless they are magical, but the bomb aren't magical wd. so, he is resistant to the wd of the bomb, right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozz Posted September 30, 2011 Report Share Posted September 30, 2011 This response is all going to seem rather random, and for that I apologise, but I am reading this post from start to finish for the first time atm, and after 10 pages of being unable to respond I am putting comments I wish to make somewhere else so I don’t forget them:) Read from page 1 – 17 and got to tired to carry on as its now quarter past one and my head is very tired and sleepy Alps – Limit to 2-3 for a Dreamer crew, allowing you to still summon more with Coppelius or alps. Or just bring models which get a double blast on moderate/sever damage and they all fall over dead in 1 shot, they are close so likely hit them over your own in combat anyway (spend lots of time watching raspy and a little of Sonnia so not a great fan of my alps they spent much time in my case, I try to let some out occasionally but cant face more than 3 of them makes me cringe, unless i make them in game) Daydreams – I agree with the limit to one and summon more. Myself I'm not a great player, and yes I am one of those who chose the crew for the fluff, what’s not to love of a little child getting scared and making a gigantic monster appear and kill everything? But it stops the turn one mutilation of the opponent’s crews, which ive not yet figured out how this works but not that relevant really, don’t need auto win things, I think ive lost 3 of 12 games or something. Considering I'm not very good at tactics in general, don’t need to do to much more with this crew. Removing SS from LFC imo is just stupid. My biggest use for them is to keep him alive, he is df 4 with no defensive tricks, he is not that hard to remove without stones to keep him alive. Maybe remove his delight in pain as I'm sure that would be horrific if I ever remembered he had that ability when I used him. But ive read nothing to make it relevant to his fluff that he can heal from people getting hurt around him. (or make it that he heals only when he deals damage to people?) As for crews against the dreamer, I think Collette is possibly the strongest as we are fast and appear, but she is equally as fast, but can also vanish in an instant, has blast markers, and the duet has a 2” pulse for 2 dmg. Not particularly relevant just curious to peoples thoughts on my opinion here? So the one time I played against her, it took me 5 turns to pin her into a corner, and do some damage, Cassandra down to 3 and Colette took 4 WD, but I had only Lord Chompy left so he died after his activation. Granted that was due to me falling for the lure of Cassandra when I couldn’t hit her, and the corephee killing the 3 alps I had. As to The Dreamer being easy to kill, he is, but he just lands out of sight of everything until he drops everything, Ht 1 and I can fly = 14” move = likely not going to be anywhere to be targeted by much you don’t allow, or 12” if you keep a daydream close for safety purposes. But Bodyguard is always taken because you have 2 masters to kill, instantly making it more difficult to do by the fact; you cannot use flurry or rapid fire to stop us getting this one. Dreamer has his defences yes, but he is still not too difficult to kill, needs to take 4WD to die (3 and a 1). And imo this is a weakness, he has the ability to put nightmares next to him where ever he goes, simple, but he has 2 activations, so 1 activation is to put something next to him, the other is to move just 7” so he ether sacrifices some movement (or goes 12” with a companioned daydream or is 100% out of sight) or is alone and you are able to pick at him. He has his ways around it if you use the terrain but that requires some HT 2 terrain pieces in a useful place, where I play we mostly (not only but mostly) have ht1 Walls to hide behind so if you have 2 guns in your crew he can die happily But that is I guess dependant on the terrain you have available to you on your boards. As for balancing alps, maybe change the Exhaustion to a WP 14 Duel with the same effect as Feed on Dreams for multiple alps ie a negative for those close enough so there is a chance to pass it and masters can stone out of the wounds if they chose. Instead of Auto Damage or WP12 or maybe if the fact its so many WP duels is bad, make it a DF duel as this is in combat range ect? Sorry for the lack of quotes to show where the comments were relevant, but as I said, I read 17 pages and finding all the quotes would have taken to long for me due to needing to sleep. I hope this isn’t just rubbish for all who read it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Q'iq'el Posted September 30, 2011 Report Share Posted September 30, 2011 One model which gets often overlooked is Hans. His low moderate damage is a bit of a problem when it comes to killing stuff, but he's very good at taking out both Stitched and Alps. If he is the one struck by the bomb, On the move allows him to move away and strike avoiding the damage (distance is somewhat short though, so it won't fully eliminate the Alp threat). Otherwise he can reach out and remove at least one model per turn, regardless of range, cover or fog being present. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karn987 Posted September 30, 2011 Report Share Posted September 30, 2011 Wow, just realised that because you get a ss back for each nightmare, effectively your first 5 Alps cost 2ss each. I've always "known" that, but just realised how serious that is lol It's not really that serious. It's exactly like having a 5ss Cache. It's no different in reality. Viewed through this lens, Seamus gets two belles for 1ss less each, etc etc. I don't really see a difference heh. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fetid Strumpet Posted September 30, 2011 Report Share Posted September 30, 2011 Agreed, His Master of Dreams is effectively a 5 SS Cache. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NBmaster Posted September 30, 2011 Report Share Posted September 30, 2011 The way I read it you get the stones when the game stats so the dreamer wouldn't be able to burn a ss to reflip location and the like is this correct or no? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Math Mathonwy Posted September 30, 2011 Report Share Posted September 30, 2011 Yep. I think most people don't really understand the dynamics of statistics, much less the difference between a card game and a dice game, much much less the effect that scale has on a game like Malifaux. The point is - dice even out over time on average, and in Warhammer you roll lots of dice. In Malifaux, you can win or lose the game on just 2-3 bad flips or cases of extreme good/bad luck. The theory that 'both players should pull roughly the same cards in a turn' is true, but the order in which those cards come up makes the game even more random than a dice game. Sometimes you'll see your 13s disappear on negative twist damage flips, you'll flip 12s of the wrong suit to cast spells, you'll flip 1s for all of your important offensive abilities, and so on. In fact, not to blow my own trumpet, but I'd go so far as to say that of the 10~ Malifaux games I haven't won since being out of the "I'm new and learning the rules" phase, most of those have been to incredibly imbalanced card flips on one side or the other. Combat in Warhammer is pretty predictable due to the number of dice thrown, but the thing that wins games is Ld-checks and those have great variance (well, in the current edition charge tests and magic can also win games and also through great variance). A random failed panic test that sends your Teclis off the board before your first turn (saw this happen a while ago) is kinda a game over similar to dying to a Red Joker damage flip on :-fate. The deck having a fixed amount of cards gives me better ability to predict what is coming. I don't count cards, but I keep note of the jokers and important cards like 11+ crows for Seamus and try to also note Kings going by. I also know what I hold in my hand. All of this gives changing probabilities for different cards and when the deck starts depleting, it's very useful stuff. Regarding using alps to delay deployment of the bomb. The Dreamer can not pick all his models up from one side of the board and deposit them on the other in one activation. If the models are on the table they can not be moved more than 12", and that requires the dreamer to be exactly 6" away from the model. Wait, is this really so? Can someone with intimate knowledge of the Dreamer shuffle confirm? Can anyone think of anything they would add to the list Adran posted? I'm sure some of these Masters have some other options to countering the Alp bomb. Just trying to make a comprehensive list of this. I actually don't think that the list is useful in any way (sorry, Adran). Ignoring Stitcheds and, most importantly, LCB, makes it useless as anything other than a thought-experiment. Many of the Masters would die to the LCB, be blocked by Stitcheds and die to Alp damage from hitting/moving and the list ignores this. It also ignores, again, the fact that Dreamer player can choose where and when to bomb. He probably won't bomb a Lilith with nine Alps in a nice, round formation around her. I realize that this is hard to take into account when theorizing, but I'm not sure that outright ignoring the fact is a good idea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Math Mathonwy Posted September 30, 2011 Report Share Posted September 30, 2011 One model which gets often overlooked is Hans. His low moderate damage is a bit of a problem when it comes to killing stuff' date=' but he's very good at taking out both Stitched and Alps. If he is the one struck by the bomb, [b']On the move allows him to move away and strike avoiding the damage (distance is somewhat short though, so it won't fully eliminate the Alp threat). Otherwise he can reach out and remove at least one model per turn, regardless of range, cover or fog being present. Hans is 9SS for non-Outcasts. I don't see him being worth that, really. He is also very squishy and easy food for LCB if the Dreamer player is seriously worried about him. Also, his low Cb (for his cost) really hampers him. I'm a firm believer that Hans is seriously underpowered. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fading Memory Posted September 30, 2011 Report Share Posted September 30, 2011 This isn't pro or anti Dreamer, but throughout the forums, there are numerous posts about slow masters. This master isn't good in this strategy, this one is too slow. My question is why do people feel they have to bring their slow master in a game where mobility is huge? We get to know the strategy before crews are hired. Why severely handicap yourself in this situation? I just don't get it. Pick a different master. I know for new and casual gamers or those on a budget this might not be an option. If that's the case predetermine with the other player not to play these game modes. Most players are not so vindictive that they will be like, "No that's your fault for being a chump that I'm going to stomp all over you." In day to day play, most people want to play games where both players are having fun, and can utilize what they own to the max. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Q'iq'el Posted September 30, 2011 Report Share Posted September 30, 2011 Hans is 9SS for non-Outcasts. I don't see him being worth that, really. He is also very squishy and easy food for LCB if the Dreamer player is seriously worried about him. Also, his low Cb (for his cost) really hampers him. I'm a firm believer that Hans is seriously underpowered. Underpowered not necessarily, one of the most situational minions in the entire game - sure. Against many targets he gets an equivalent of paired weapon, which is rare among ranged weapons (which offsets low Cb a bit, especially that he also ignores cover). His range is also well above common. Being Mercenary means he provides these abilities to crews which would normally be completely unable to get it - he doesn't need to be so good as to compete with better options some of the factions get. But because of this situational character he is overlooked also by the players who could benefit from taking him. Depending on your terrain, encounter location, master you take... his abilities can not only have impact on the game, but his survivability can be increased too - place him next to something dangerous for LCB/Bomb, and he won't be the first target for LCB to kill. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adran Posted September 30, 2011 Report Share Posted September 30, 2011 (edited) I Agree Math, alot of the list I have posted is unlikely to be seen in a real game. You are almost certainly never going to face just alps. What I have tried to do is show how alps can be handled with the hope that once people know the basics, they will be able to apply those ideas to their situation (plus the topic was the alp bomb, and for many new players reading the alp, they they look like they are going to work just on their own). Its almost impossible to give rules that will fit any deployment (For example in the battle report you have of your first game, if you created an Undead Bubble of at least 1 inch around Seamus, then the Undead psychosis would have kept Seamus safe. To do so would have meant deploying your belle and sybelle within ~2" of him. Or one model behind him. I don't know how close they were in your game. Whilst Chompy has a good chance of killing a master in one turn, it is not a certainty. He has 3 attacks. If he doesn't have high rams in hand then onslaught is no garentee, and good use of Soulstone to try and make onslaught attacks miss, or prevent the 2 damage (3/4 of the deck which prevents onslaught on weak from the claws). Alps have to be within 1 of you to hurt you when you make a strike or walk action. If signifigant number are within 1 inch of your master and you don't think they will survive the walk/attack, then you've probably got other models facing fewer alps. Looking back at the Dreamer shuffle, I think I have got it wrong, not looking properly at the daydreams. Daydream 1 can bury the crew. Daydream 2 can move it forward 12 inches (Walk, Summon Chompy, bury chompy) Dreamer can move a further 7 inches before the 6" deploy (leaves Chompy with 1 AP) I guess if Chompy has managed his All done Trigger, Daydream 3 can sacrifice himself to unbury chompy at a location roughly of your choice. So He has got chompy attacking up to 28" away, but he has at most 1 inch of your deployment zone to place models in (assumign standard deployment), so unless he has Lilitu most of your crew will not be engaged. He also will not have the space to place models carefully. It knocks 6 inches off the bomb, which I think does matter on turn one, but its not the handicap I thought it was later on in the game. It does increase the premium on daydreams. Edited September 30, 2011 by Adran Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Math Mathonwy Posted September 30, 2011 Report Share Posted September 30, 2011 My question is why do people feel they have to bring their slow master in a game where mobility is huge? The discrepancy most likely stems from the fact that some Masters are good at every strategy. Dreamer can perform well in every strategy and complete dominates some. Not arguing with you, mind, you should totally leave certain Masters home in certain strategies but the design has been a bit random in that 2nd book Masters don't tend to have weak strategies anymore (with some exceptions, though). Underpowered not necessarily' date=' one of the most situational minions in the entire game - sure.[/quote'] Underpowered compared to other Outcasts you could take. Sure, he might be better than the Trapper/Convict/Von Schill in some, very specific situations, but he really, really should be about two SS cheaper (and still wouldn't be an auto-include). OK, he isn't special forces, but that doesn't really mess with much, to be honest. Guild has enough firepower to not need Hans. Ressers can easily leave their special forces home. I mean, Molly is nice, but not integral to any strategy+opposing faction combination. Arcanists get shooty in their special forces but I suppose they are sorta the most likely to benefit from Hans, weirdly enough. Neverborn don't need Hans and Gremlins can't even take him. If a Rotten Belle costed 4+X SS (adjust X to your personal liking) it would still be situationally useful, but underpowered. Like Hans. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Math Mathonwy Posted September 30, 2011 Report Share Posted September 30, 2011 I Agree Math, alot of the list I have posted is unlikely to be seen in a real game. You are almost certainly never going to face just alps. What I have tried to do is show how alps can be handled with the hope that once people know the basics, they will be able to apply those ideas to their situation (plus the topic was the alp bomb, and for many new players reading the alp, they they look like they are going to work just on their own). I kinda get what you were after, but I'm not convinced that it is all that useful. Under ideal conditions most Masters can take down two or three Alps a turn shouldn't be news to anyone. As an aside, I don't want to appear as attacking you here, as I think that you're one of the most consistently good tactical advice givers on the forums often with deep insights and I always read your posts with care. So please keep doing what you're doing Whilst Chompy has a good chance of killing a master in one turn, it is not a certainty. He has 3 attacks. If he doesn't have high rams in hand then onslaught is no garentee, and good use of Soulstone to try and make onslaught attacks miss, or prevent the 2 damage (3/4 of the deck which prevents onslaught on weak from the claws). Paired and SS use has rather a good chance of generating rams, though, so IME LCB tends to attack about five times a turn or so against models with not-so-supremely high a defense. Alps have to be within 1 of you to hurt you when you make a strike or walk action. If signifigant number are within 1 inch of your master and you don't think they will survive the walk/attack, then you've probably got other models facing fewer alps. Other models have a really hard time passing the test against slow with the :-fate flips. And once they are slowed, their effectivity drops extremely drastically. The exception to this are SS users, so concentrating on them a bit more is often a good idea. And defensive stance Alps, though squishy, aren't complete push-overs, so whiffing against them is entirely possible. So He has got chompy attacking up to 28" away, but he has at most 1 inch of your deployment zone to place models in (assumign standard deployment), so unless he has Lilitu most of your crew will not be engaged. He also will not have the space to place models carefully. It knocks 6 inches off the bomb, which I think does matter on turn one, but its not the handicap I thought it was later on in the game. It does increase the premium on daydreams. The stalling gets the enemy closer, though (unless he sits in his deployment zone in which case Dreamer wins, basically). But yeah, stalling is mostly a second turn thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adran Posted September 30, 2011 Report Share Posted September 30, 2011 I'm happy for people to deconstruct my advice, and say why its rubbish, and I'm pretty thick skinned on the net as generally if something can be taken two ways, I assume it was meant the better way. Thanks for the compliment on the advice, I try to make sure its researched and related. I would have thought that most people would have worked out masters should kill a couple of alps, but sometimes reading peoples responses makes me wonder. Just been looking at my books, and assuming a soulstone cache of at least 4 stones, I'd only expect the following masters/henchmen to die Sonnia Rasputina Nicodem. Unless you've managed to get zombies before their first activation. 1 of the Viktorias Von Schill is going to be a close one. Leveticus Hamelin Ophelia and Sommer if you prevent them from pushing away. Most of the rest should be ok. Well Hurt but alive. Justice is probably going to be the worst off, but she has a small chance of having killed Chompy in his attacks. I'm largely basing this on Gut feeling rather than indepth analysis. Assuming that you are using the paired attack to increase chances of the Ram. Without a high ram in hand, you're probably only going to get 1 onslaught in 3 attacks against a soulstone user with matching or better defense. And they are probably on a negative flip, which allows damage prevention to also prevent the onslaught trigger. Hoffman should have at least Armour 2, meaning that he can stop damages from up to moderate. Similar for Ramos, you are probably on a cheatable flip, but if its not severe he can stop the onslaught. And Sonnia, Rasputina and Nicodem were probably the masters who would do least against the subsequent alps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fetid Strumpet Posted September 30, 2011 Report Share Posted September 30, 2011 Chompy has a threat range of 34" actually here's the math. The board is 36" x 36" -Day dream 1 starts 6" up from the Board edge. -Daydream 1 Moves 6" from deployment zone. -Daydream 1 unburies Chompy 6" from him -Daydream 1 buries chompy. -Dreamer uses I can fly and moves 7" -Dreamer uses Frightening Dream and unburied Chompy 6" up. -Chompy is height 3 and has a 3" reach. Total Chompy threat range 34" Also if I'm getting the middle portion wrong when the Dreamer pops out and goes in b2b with chompy instead of center to center then add approx 1" more to his treat range. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dolomyte Posted September 30, 2011 Author Report Share Posted September 30, 2011 Dont hate on Raspy, she's actually really really good against the dreamer. Of all the arcanists masters she's the one who I think could handle him pretty well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Math Mathonwy Posted September 30, 2011 Report Share Posted September 30, 2011 Chompy has a threat range of 34" actually here's the math. The board is 36" x 36" -Day dream 1 starts 6" up from the Board edge. -Daydream 1 Moves 6" from deployment zone. -Daydream 1 unburies Chompy 6" from him -Daydream 1 buries chompy. -Dreamer uses I can fly and moves 7" -Dreamer uses Frightening Dream and unburied Chompy 6" up. -Chompy is height 3 and has a 3" reach. Total Chompy threat range 34" Also if I'm getting the middle portion wrong when the Dreamer pops out and goes in b2b with chompy instead of center to center then add approx 1" more to his treat range. Since all the unburials are within as opposed to completely within, you can add the model's bases for each step gaining quite a bit more reach, actually. So add 50mm for the LCB, then 30mm for the Dreamer and then 50mm again for LCB meaning 130mm or a bit over 5" to the threat range for an impressive 39". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adran Posted September 30, 2011 Report Share Posted September 30, 2011 I hadn't included the initial distance on the deployment. bad visualisation. I think page 38 says A models base must be placed where it can fit and may not be placed so that any portion of it is further than the placement effect permits. So as I read it its a place completely within 6". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Math Mathonwy Posted September 30, 2011 Report Share Posted September 30, 2011 (edited) I hadn't included the initial distance on the deployment. bad visualisation. I think page 38 says A models base must be placed where it can fit and may not be placed so that any portion of it is further than the placement effect permits. So as I read it its a place completely within 6". I've read that as meaning that the "within" or "completely within" are in effect and must be respected even if the model doesn't fit, but I can see your reading as well, now that you mention it. If so, I've been playing wrong since the beginning but it seems strange that they would use "within" for the effects when they actually mean "completely within" due to that part of the rules. edit: Page 38 also says "Unless stated otherwise, a model's base must be placed completely within any stated range." Dreamer's placement effects say otherwise (as they say "within" as opposed to "completely within"). Or that's at least my reading of the rules - I can post a thread to the rules forum if deemed necessary? Edited September 30, 2011 by Math Mathonwy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucidicide Posted September 30, 2011 Report Share Posted September 30, 2011 I don't think it's a bad idea to get it out there, at least for any FAQ or clarification purposes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Math Mathonwy Posted September 30, 2011 Report Share Posted September 30, 2011 I don't think it's a bad idea to get it out there, at least for any FAQ or clarification purposes. Posted it: http://www.wyrd-games.net/forum/showthread.php?t=25380 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Alleycat Posted October 1, 2011 Report Share Posted October 1, 2011 And while Chompy is certainly a threat to Sonnia,Alps are crispy if they are near her. 2 Flame bursts will kill the Alps,IF you manage to go before the dreamer drops the bomb you can set a flame wall to block off part of the area and use inferno to make the rest of the area unpleasent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calmdown Posted October 3, 2011 Report Share Posted October 3, 2011 Amazing. Wyrd actually reacted to the feedback and issued some errata! There's hope yet. Maybe this will start a chain reaction of them errata'ing all of the other things that they need to errata too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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