Zoraida and 2 Special Forces

[Fading Memory]

This debate has come up a few times in other threads, but I don't believe it has been its own topic.

Under the rules for hiring models, it says, "The following restrictions apply when hiring Crews." (p71) and then later on says only one special forces may be selected and only two models of that special force may be hired unless a henchman of that special force is hired.

It says nothing about being able to summon Special Forces. Zoraida is able to summon Wicked Dolls. So the question is if Zoraida hires let's say Rami (Sp Kin), can she summon Wicked Dolls once the game starts?

The rule of one special force is unclear when talking about summoning as the rules seem to fall under hiring only; where as, something like Rare clearly stats how many of that model you can have in play at any given time.

[Calmdown]

The wording in the book sais "In addition..."

I had that stance before also, and someone brought that up to me. There is just enough ambiguity in the rule book to cause a circular argument. At quick look is sais no, but if you look deeper you see loopholes. Check out this thread where I think you'll see more info.

Which is why we're posting in the rules section for clarity.

There is no loophole. You're supposing that there is one.

The way the rules are written is very, very clear. There is nothing that contradicts the "a crew cannot contain models from more than one special force" rule anywhere, as written. You're asking for an errata to be issued based on intent, not a clarification.

[Buhallin]

Actually the hiring reference is on the top of 69 or 70 which refers to all info below it. Now Page 10 is the same wording (copy & paste) but does fall under the hiring comment.

This is not true.

Page 10: "A Crew cannot contain models from more than one Special Forces group."

Page 72: "A Crew may only contain Special Forces models from one [Group Name]."

This is rather clearly not a cut-and-paste.

Just because the limitation is emphasized again with regard to hiring does not mean that it applies only to hiring. You can certainly argue that it's unintended, but please be clear about what you're asking for: You're wanting a rules marshal to confirm that it's supposed to work the way the rules say. There really isn't any ambiguity in the actual rule itself.

[Fading Memory]

I am going with the ruling on page 10, as I overlooked it the first time.

[011121]

There is no loophole. You're supposing that there is one.

The way the rules are written is very, very clear. There is nothing that contradicts the "a crew cannot contain models from more than one special force" rule anywhere, as written. You're asking for an errata to be issued based on intent, not a clarification.

Obviously it's not "very very clear" since quite a number of people are reaching an honest disagreement about the ruling. While there may not be anything that contradicts the special forces restriction there may be something that modifies the statement, specifically that makes it only apply during hiring.

Really anytime there's significant disagreement about the rules that's exactly what the rules marshals exist to address.

[magicpockets]

Page 10: "A Crew cannot contain models from more than one Special Forces group."

But Z can hire LaCroix, Guardsmen and MS&U Assets into her crew at once due to them being WP<5, straight away there's your rule being overruled.

[Buhallin]

But Z can hire LaCroix, Guardsmen and MS&U Assets into her crew at once due to them being WP<5, straight away there's your rule being overruled.

No, she can't. Can't beats can, so the special forces restriction overrides her normally-wide choice.

Otherwise, anyone could hire Friekorps along with their own in-faction special force, because anyone can hire Mercenaries.

[CannonFodder]

No, she can't. Can't beats can, so the special forces restriction overrides her normally-wide choice.

Otherwise, anyone could hire Friekorps along with their own in-faction special force, because anyone can hire Mercenaries.

The primary question is not hiring restrictions, it summoning in game, which is slightly different.

Actually you can take 2 Freikorps with 4 Desperate Mercs in a Zoraida list. The Freikorps rule only applies to models hired as mercs, the WP<=4 does not hire them as mercs, but as out of faction models which for hiring purposes are not mercs. The big question is can you then summon Wicked dolls (Spec Forces-dolls).

If this is not true, then Vonchills could not lead a crew with non-Freikorps models.

[Buhallin]

Actually you can take 2 Freikorps with 4 Desperate Mercs in a Zoraida list. The Freikorps rule only applies to models hired as mercs, the WP<=4 does not hire them as mercs, but as out of faction models which for hiring purposes are not mercs.

This really doesn't have anything to do with what I was responding to.

magicpockets was basically saying that Zoraida's hiring option overrode the single Special Force limitation. That wasn't correct. The comparison I was making was that Mercenary is a hiring option, and if Zoraida's hiring option could allow mixing Special Forces based on their Wp, there wasn't any reason you couldn't hire Friekorps as a merc, and then take (for example) an M&SU Member as well. It was another illustration of how can doesn't beat can't, and had nothing to do with the Friekorps rule.

[Keltheos]

Since the hiring rules aren't part of Summoning I'm not quite sure why folks are latching onto those pages over what's stated on page 10.

Nevertheless, I'm going to talk with the other Marshals on this and give you something more official sounding in the next day or so.

[CannonFodder]

Thank you for the feedback, We eagerly await the final ruling.

[CannonFodder]

If you can give a concise answer to each of the following along with the in depth ruling I think it would help.

Can you summon a model with Spec Forces (A) into a force containing Spec Forces (?

Can Zoraida hire Spec Forces (dolls) after she hires a different Spec Forces in her crew due to the description in the rule book (Text: In addition...)?

Can Ramos hire Spec Forces (MSU Assets) after she hires a different Spec Forces in his crew due to the description in the rule book (Text: In addition...)?

If you do not have a model that lets you hire more than 2 Spec Forces models can you summon a Spec forces model if you already have 2 or more Spec Force models.

Edited September 1, 2011 by CannonFodder
Rewording for better clarity

[Ciaran]

Can Zoraida hire Spec Forces (dolls) after she hires a different Spec Forces in her crew due to the description in the rule book (Text: In addition...)?

Can Ramos hire Spec Forces (MSU Assets) after she hires a different Spec Forces in his crew due to the description in the rule book (Text: In addition...)?

No to both. The special rule says something along the lines of "in addition to Special Forces restrictions." That would mean only one special forces group can still be hired. Ramos and Zoraida can just hire as many as they want of their allowed group without hiring the Henchman that unlocks the group.

It will still be nice to see it from someone with some more weight so it's all official like.

[CannonFodder]

No to both. The special rule says something along the lines of "in addition to Special Forces restrictions." That would mean only one special forces group can still be hired. Ramos and Zoraida can just hire as many as they want of their allowed group without hiring the Henchman that unlocks the group.

It will still be nice to see it from someone with some more weight so it's all official like.

I agree with that, but I saw others read it as, In addition to hiring Spec force, she is allowed Dolls. Without official response/FAQ its opinion, which is why I posted the question.

[WEiRD sKeTCH]

I agree with that, but I saw others read it as, In addition to hiring Spec force, she is allowed Dolls. Without official response/FAQ its opinion, which is why I posted the question.

See:

Since the hiring rules aren't part of Summoning I'm not quite sure why folks are latching onto those pages over what's stated on page 10.

Nevertheless, I'm going to talk with the other Marshals on this and give you something more official sounding in the next day or so.

That was posted yesterday. Kel and I haven't discussed it yet, but we will soon.

[CannonFodder]

I know I'm solidifying my title as pain in the a$$, but is there any update on this.

[CannonFodder]

Are we there yet, Are we there yet, Are we there yet, Are we there yet, Are we there yet, Are we there yet, Are we there yet, Are we there yet, Are we there yet, Are we there yet, Are we there yet, Are we there yet, Are we there yet, Are we there yet, Are we there yet, Are we there yet, Are we there yet, Are we there yet, Are we there yet, Are we there yet, Are we there yet, Are we there yet, Are we there yet, Are we there yet, Are we there yet, Are we there yet, Are we there yet, Are we there yet, Are we there yet, Are we there yet, Are we there yet.

:tomato:

[XboxVrtigo]

:bump:

[Fetid Strumpet]

I'm curious about this as well. Any thoughts Wyrd?

[Dolomyte]

its not just limited to zoraida. so they probably have to look at all the interactions first.

[WEiRD sKeTCH]

Still in discussion.

[Fetid Strumpet]

Thanks Sketch.

Personally I hope the Special Forces Rule is a Hard one. As in you get to bring models from one special forces group, Period, no other special forces may appear in your crew at any point for any reason unless a rule specifically grants an exception to this rule.

I think it will allow for interesting choices in your crew construction, especially if a trend of multi-faction special forces continues.

[011121]

Thank you for letting us know it's being worked on.

[CannonFodder]

I think it currently only impacts only Zoraida, Widow Weaver, aRamos (I heard he can summon Large SPA). but who knows what else is being planned for next book.

And thanks to those that bumped it, I was afraid I was the only one.

[Csonti]

I think it currently only impacts only Zoraida, Widow Weaver, aRamos (I heard he can summon Large SPA). but who knows what else is being planned for next book.

McM hiring Von Schill and trying to summon a Rogue Necromancy...

[Adran]

Zoraida and Ramos are the only two models which have the rule

" In addition to the special forces rules.." (still waiting for book 3, so can't comment on the widow weaver)

So its perfectly clear that every one else has no chance to exceed it.