Ophelia vs the Dreamer, any hope?

[011121]

Played my first two games of Malifaux yesterday, pitting Ophelia vs the Dreamer. Both games ended with me being completely tabled. What really worries me is neither battle did I really seem to even have a chance. I didn't have particularly bad luck in either game but I just seemed completely outclassed.

We're both using the beginner boxes with a couple add on models. The dreamer has 3 daydreams and Ophelia has a couple Bayou Gremlins (borrowed from the Som'er Teeth box set.

The first game we had shared claim jump, I took kill protege (Coppelius, because he frightens me a lot), my son took kidnap. Game ended with 6VP to 2 with me managing to kill Coppelius but being completely wiped out by the end of the 4th turn. I only managed to take out one stitched together (which actually killed itself with a Gamble Your Life) one daydream and Coppelius. Never so much as hurt LCB.

The second game at least took longer with me wiped out at the beginning of the 6th turn. but by the fifth, when LCB killed Ophelia in one hit, killed a bayou gremlin, and mauled Raphael down to the point where he was going to die from poison, it was essentially all over.

I'm just not seeing how the gremlins can stand up to his crew. Their low WP makes his terrify all the more terrifying, the stitched together put a huge dent in my shooting with creepy fog, and in melee my guys fall like chaff.

Am I missing something? I could use a slop hauler to get some healing but I don't think it'd be enough. Clump my troops together and terrify means I burn through my whole hand just to keep from fleeing, but if I spread out the nightmares can jump my guys one at a time easily. Poison in particular just demolished my crew. One hit from Chompy's teeth or Coppelius meant an additional 3 damage on top of whatever they did. It was really depressing in the first game to realize one turn that out of 5 models, three were going to die on their activation from poison and one was paralyzed. The last guy, a bayou gremlin, tried to activate, was immediately terrified by LCB, tried to run, and was gutted by LCB's blocking attack.

There were definitely mistakes I made, one time I really should have used squeel to run away from Chompy, which might have preserved Ophelia another round. Another time I should have used soulstones offensively to try and finish off Chompy (I think I had just gotten it so fixed in my head that I needed them to try and survive longer that I forgot about using them to inflict harm). I just don't see how it would have made enough of a difference.

Any suggestions? I like the gremlins, and I like the dreamer, but right now its seeming like a game between the two is a lost cause.

[011121]

oh, one other detail, my opponent is as new to the game as I am, and I'm guessing there's a lot more Dreamer nastiness that we haven't figured out yet.

[Mentat_Canis]

It depends on the Dreamer players build but it is a rough match up because most of your models are low Wp Low Wd's but you can have a metric ton of them. I think the key is to spread out and wait for him to pop up for a small target think 2 gremlins and then shoot him down. You have the ranged firepower to deal with his force its just a matter of ok those Gremlins die now we use these.

Pere would be good for this because if he comes after Pere and Pere dies which is fairly common he explodes and don't be afraid to shoot your own models with models that can deal blast damage. I would also look into Som'er Teeth because he really does add a ton leading Ophelia.

I am not going to lie he is a tough battle and its an uphill fight because of the speed the Terrifying and the damage output but its not a lost cause.

[karn987]

Pere Ravage.... he is the EXACT kind of thing that is a serious threat to the Dreamer. The Dreamer play will most likely try to jump you with a group of models. if Pere is nearby, he can make the Dreamer pay heavily for that attack. You will also get a chance to activate after the Dreamer drops his Nightmares on you, if you keep the crew close to Pere you should be fine. Nightmares are rather fragile and most of them have a lowish Df, so once you get a chance to attack you can take them appart. Part of the Dreamer's learning curve is to time your attacks and avoid hefty retribution like Pere.

Otherwise you want to try and bait him. You set your gremlins out a bit protecting Pere, heck use Ophelia as bait if you think it's worth it. But try and get him to jump one part of your crew while the other remains free to fire in. Pere is fantastic for getting jumped if he hasn't activated yet. You just flip the switch and start doing his Pulse AE's. I've lost 2 Teddies to Pere in one turn because I got careless with him and fell for a bait of Ophelia.

Lastly, aim for Daydreams. If you get some early shots on them, take it. They are really the key that lets the Dreamer opperate to his fullest effect and taking them out quickly really hampers him. This is especially true if say just 1 is coming up a flank, if you kill it the flank is yours. If not, well its a possible spawn point for his whole crew and you've seen what that means.

But just as Mentat_Canis said, it is going to be a tough uphill battle for you. The terrifying attacks a big weakspot of yours and few of your models are tough enough to stand up to the damage output of the nightmares. But don't give up, focus on your schemes and Strategies and try to avoid things like Assassinate or kill Protege because the Dreamer can rather easily deny you those VP's.

Bring Somer into the mix, he should give you a lot of help. I'm still testing it, but I think stuffed piglets can really help the gremlins vs the Dreamer to.

[011121]

But Pere has a WP3 that goes down to 1 when defending a duel. It's almost impossible for him not to flee coppelius and LCB and he can't really hurt the dreamer (who is immune to pulses, auras, and blasts). In one game he got poisoned then abducted and dropped off where he'd do no damage. In the other I managed to use him to one shot a stitched but that was it.

How do you get around the stitched's fog messing with your ranged attacks? I know Rami can get through it using hunter but it seems to completely shut down the rest of the gremlins.

Finally I really don;t outnumber him at all. Here's his list:

25ss

Dreamer/LCB

Coppelius

2x stitched

3x daydreams

5 pool

mine:

Ophelia

Rami

Raphael

Pere

Francois

1-2 bayou gremlins

5-6 pool

He has either one more or the same number of models.

I could drop one of the kin to add another 2 bayou gremlins,

[011121]

People keep referring to nightmares as fragile but I don't see why. His stitched are not super tough but they aren't fragile either. Coppelius took about half my gang to take down (and he took two of them with him). I unloaded Ophelia, Raphael, and a bayou gremlin at LCB standing in the open and only reduced him to half health (which he then healed back by killing the). I dread the day I get a teddy for the Dreamer to play with.

Where's the fragility?

[Huang Da Wei]

To learn about strengths and weaknesses why not swap crews. You play the LCB. May give you an insight into more.

Anyway, I am no good for advice, I have my gremlins painted and the dreamer on the painting table and I havent even played a game yet.

[CaptainTrouser]

ok- usefull things to remember:

Squee pushes 4" away from melee. This will always put you out of melee range, and as such will slow down a rampaging beastie like LCB if you can survive the first hit. It also keeps you out of terror range, which is nice.

Slop haulers are invaluable- you keep ophilia and her kin alive, as they should be burning through wounds quite quickly with Dumb Luck and it's ilk, and reckless.

Activate your least important stuff first- you should have a brazillion gremlins, each of them unimportant. Once he's run out of *stuff* to respond with, pick his key thingies (daydreams etc) off with your heavy-hitters (ophilia, remi, popa boom etc).

Young 'uns are worth their weight in gold. Companion them to Ophilia and get 4 Right Between The Eyes casts off in quick succession- not a lot survives that.

Stay spread out- a clump of wee gremlins are a wonderful target for a beater like LCB. our range is 12", his around 3", so force him to fight on YOUR terms IE at a distance.

If you want blast damage to hit a clump of nightmares that just arived., shoot your own gremlins in melee, as you can cheat down their defences.

Be wary of companioning all your good models on activation 1- sometimes a huge alpha strike pays off (say if you kill LCB dead turn 1) but often it just leaves you out of options.

Drop Raphael and probably Francois, take more bog-standard gremlins, young 'uns or slop haulers. Slop haulers are invaluable, getting enemies defences down to managable levels with their pulse. Young lacroix are pretty survivable and can cast the wonderful Right Between The Eyes. Gremlins are cannon fodder, and you NEED that.

My other tip is to play Som'r teeth vs the Dreamer. Because A Gremlin's Luck gets rid of his hand and spawning constant gremlins is wonderful fun.

[011121]

ok- usefull things to remember:

Squee pushes 4" away from melee. This will always put you out of melee range, and as such will slow down a rampaging beastie like LCB if you can survive the first hit. It also keeps you out of terror range, which is nice.

Slop haulers are invaluable- you keep ophelia and her kin alive, as they should be burning through wounds quite quickly with Dumb Luck and it's ilk, and reckless.

Activate your least important stuff first- you should have a brazillion gremlins, each of them unimportant. Once he's run out of *stuff* to respond with, pick his key thingies (daydreams etc) off with your heavy-hitters (ophilia, remi, popa boom etc).

Young 'uns are worth their weight in gold. Companion them to Ophilia and get 4 Right Between The Eyes casts off in quick succession- not a lot survives that.

Stay spread out- a clump of wee gremlins are a wonderful target for a beater like LCB. our range is 12", his around 3", so force him to fight on YOUR terms IE at a distance.

If you want blast damage to hit a clump of nightmares that just arived., shoot your own gremlins in melee, as you can cheat down their defences.

Be wary of companioning all your good models on activation 1- sometimes a huge alpha strike pays off (say if you kill LCB dead turn 1) but often it just leaves you out of options.

Drop Raphael and probably Francois, take more bog-standard gremlins, young 'uns or slop haulers. Slop haulers are invaluable, getting enemies defences down to managable levels with their pulse. Young lacroix are pretty survivable and can cast the wonderful Right Between The Eyes. Gremlins are cannon fodder, and you NEED that.

My other tip is to play Som'r teeth vs the Dreamer. Because A Gremlin's Luck gets rid of his hand and spawning constant gremlins is wonderful fun.

I can try subbing in two more bayou gremlins for Raphael or Francois, unfortunately that's all I have. I haven't used Som'er teeth for three reasons-

1) don't have the warpig put together

2) don't have any mosquitos

3) he has a soulstone pool of 0 which seems terrible

I was not using Ophelia's "Right between the eyes" spell, is it really that worthwhile? It seemed like her spells always traded off bad hitting for good damage or vice versa and since I was having trouble with both it didn't really seem worthwhile, but I'll take another look at it.

Why do you say we have 12" range? Are you talking about the bayou gremlins specifically? I ask because most of the kin have 8" range, the exception being Rami.

[Fading Memory]

How do you get around the stitched's fog messing with your ranged attacks? I know Rami can get through it using hunter but it seems to completely shut down the rest of the gremlins.

Abilities like Hunter and Master of Malifaux cannot see through the fog. This ruling is in the new errata.

http://wyrd-games.net/forum/showthread.php?t=19972

One of the biggest problems with the Dreamer (I play him) is he may be able to plop all his minions out at once, but then that leaves them vulnerable on the turn they come out. Day Dreams being placed are not affected by Companion and Creepy Fog isn't active (unless you buried the Stiched after it activates the fog the previous turn). Then they are vulnerable on the next turn unless the Dreamer gets Initative and buries all his minions, but that means the activation of only one model allowing his opponent a free turn to capture objectives.

With this is mind, when you get to activate models, use the companion rule with your kin and shoot the hell out of Stiched that have not put up their fog yet, or whaterver top priority target is in your way. Also, if the Stiched use Gamble to try and draw more cards, don't be afraid to cheat to win. Your opponent probably has low cards or only a few high ones left, deny him the option of drawing more.

One thing to remember is that Malifaux is not a game about who can deal more damage. It is about who can get more victory points. Schemes are a great way to counter your opponent. Announcing Hold Out (no enemy models in your deploy zone) and something like Sabotage or Breakthrough that require you to be on your opponents side of the board are awesome combos. These schemes may contradict each other, but in games with low enemy model counts, your opponent is going to be pressed to divide his forces. Don't forget insignificant models don't count toward the victory conditions. Announcing Schemes is a great way to hinder your opponent and make him question which objective is worth going for.

In your case you have more significant models and more range to shoot your opponent if he divides his forces. In this case you have "won" the game before it even begins. Just be careful and choice your targets well. And one final note, don't be afraid to burn a souls stone to kill or severely injure a model. A soul stone saved is a soul stone wasted.

[011121]

Abilities like Hunter and Master of Malifaux cannot see through the fog. This ruling is in the new errata.

http://wyrd-games.net/forum/showthread.php?t=19972

if you're trying to depress me you're succeeding.

With this is mind, when you get to activate models, use the companion rule with your kin and shoot the hell out of Stiched that have not put up their fog yet, or whaterver top priority target is in your way. Also, if the Stiched use Gamble to try and draw more cards, don't be afraid to cheat to win. Your opponent probably has low cards or only a few high ones left, deny him the option of drawing more.

But if I use a card to cheat the gamble doesn't that accomplish the same goal- give him a card advantage?

One thing to remember is that Malifaux is not a game about who can deal more damage. It is about who can get more victory points. Schemes are a great way to counter your opponent. Announcing Hold Out (no enemy models in your deploy zone) and something like Sabotage or Breakthrough that require you to be on your opponents side of the board are awesome combos. These schemes may contradict each other, but in games with low enemy model counts, your opponent is going to be pressed to divide his forces. Don't forget insignificant models don't count toward the victory conditions. Announcing Schemes is a great way to hinder your opponent and make him question which objective is worth going for.

In your case you have more significant models and more range to shoot your opponent if he divides his forces. In this case you have "won" the game before it even begins. Just be careful and choice your targets well. And one final note, don't be afraid to burn a souls stone to kill or severely injure a model. A soul stone saved is a soul stone wasted.

But I don't really have more models. In the lists above we were on par or I had one more. Granted all of mine were significant whereas three of his weren't but that didn't really matter when he simply slaughtered my entire force.

In our second game I tried a line in the sand Strategy, figuring I could use the larger number of significant figures to my advantage but basically as soon as he reach the midline all my guys died. I managed to light three dynamite counters but he put one out and I was never again even close to them (as he rolled forward over my troops). I'll post the battle report today, maybe someone can tell me what I'm doing wrong.

[Dumb Luck]

I think the Stuffed Pig list has some merit. He can't risk attacking you incase he blows up himself. Might have to try that one myself.

In tough match ups, changing schemes I find can help. Taking Gather Soulstones or Framed for Murder on a nice target for Chompy might be worth it.

[Angor]

I play the Dreamer alot and I find that models going on defensive stance can really upset my plans. Nightmares are pretty fragile as they generally have low DF and it is often not worth risking LCB bouncing off a defensive stance model.

Try shooting daydreams too. I hate it when mine die as it really hinders plans and lowers the Dreamers room for movement and tricks.

Also Dont spread out too much otherwise the nightmares will appear kill isolated models and then dissapear before you know what hit you.

[Q'iq'el]

Not much to add here as I don't play Gremlins yet (planning for the future), but there's been a very good Aethervox podcast episode (episode 4 and its bonus content) on Ophelia - lots of tips and solid run through all the strong points of the crew - especially how they can spike up their damage output.

[CannonFodder]

Short answer : Dream will always kill Ophelia

if both players are the same skill set and same quality of crews, the gremlins lose to WP duels. Same for Pandora. I played the same match up Sat and I had Ophelia, Remi, Francois and a war pig (50 SS with som'er as master) left to activate in my deployment zone, and the dreamer and his crew in his deployment zone. Dreamer activated, picked up everyone, flew, turned into LCB took out a Bayous mid field, used triggers to get an extra couple inches with 'all done', flew again dropped everything (3x alps, copelious, Lelu, lilitu?, all terror 13) and proceeded to terror my crew before first activation. Admittedly the corner deployment gave my opponent a couple extra inches. But effectively half my army was falling back turn one and dead turn 2.

Best bet is to position for a first strike with ophelia giving someone a :rams and burn their life for mass damage. The one that gets a free attack on a trigger for 1 wds is the best to start. Without the first strike LCB will eat you alive.

Gremlins HATE corner deployment.

[gnam]

I'm going to echo the other comments of "Kill the Daydreams ASAP". As a Dreamer player (the guy CannonFodder played on Saturday), I can tell you that the Daydreams are pivotal in everything I did.

Without the Daydreams, the movement shenanigans are greatly hampered, and the ability to get off the huge alpha strike is reduced.

Clumping up is also a bad idea (as said before), if you can space your crew a bit (but again, not alot), then you limit the number of models that can effectively be mass bombed.

[Fading Memory]

"Kill the Daydreams ASAP". As a Dreamer player (the guy CannonFodder played on Saturday), I can tell you that the Daydreams are pivotal in everything I did.

I played a 35ss the other day and never once deployed or unburied a Daydream and won 8-7. My opponent got 7vp because I purposefully let LCB die, so the Dreamer would pop out on the other side of a wall, allowing free reign next turn to capture an objective. :gone:

If your Gremlins have nothing to shoot at but a Daydream by all means shoot it. Don't waste the activation moving, that could very well come back to haunt you.

I just don't feel you are as hopeless as everyone says. Try waiting for him to come to you, you should be able to get some shots off at some of his models.

[Justin]

Do you have young lacroix?

They're an auto include for Ophelia, in my opinion.

[Uncle]

In fairness, it's going to be a tough game, because LCB is just a very, very good Master and Ophelia isn't.

That said, you'd likely be better off using some kind of combination of Som'er, Ophelia, Rami, and lots and lots of Bayou Gremlins (and 2 Mosquitos and a Young Lacroix or whatever). The Kin are good, but they're awfully expensive, and if you can keep Som'er and Ophelia largely screened from the Dreamer with a small swarm of Gremlins, you should be able to blast through them.

Yes, shoot the Daydreams at every opportunity. Things like that. Use all the triggers for extra damage that you can. And with Book 3, well, you get a few tricks that might help.

[011121]

Do you have young lacroix?

They're an auto include for Ophelia, in my opinion.

I don't as of yet. Just have an Ophelia box and a Som'er box for gremlins, and a dreamer box + 3 daydreams for the neverborn.

I had a thought earlier. It may be that we're fighting at an awkward "price point" (for lack of a better term). The Ophelia box set is spendy for gremlins but there are no more LaCroix to add in, so expanding up to say 35ss would necessarily see a lot of really cheap bayou gremlins added in (along with maybe a slop hauler or taxidermist) while the Dreamer force I have is actually on the low average cost since I have the maximum number of daydreams. Expanding the daydream up to 35 would probably involve a teddy (*cringe*), another stitched, or other costly models. SO as we scaled up the gremlins would naturally start to outnumber the nightmares.

[011121]

Yes, shoot the Daydreams at every opportunity. Things like that. Use all the triggers for extra damage that you can. And with Book 3, well, you get a few tricks that might help.

So far he hasn't had to expose his daydreams to much threat because rather than hit and run it's been hit... and stand around looking at the corpses. In other words by the time the daydreams make a move my forces are annihilated and killing them really wouldn't matter.

What kinds of things in book 3 help ophelia? My understanding is she doesn't get an avatar (though Som'er does). Are their units you'd recommend for her in their? Her restrictions on only taking gremlins is pretty darn limiting.

[Uncle]

So far he hasn't had to expose his daydreams to much threat because rather than hit and run it's been hit... and stand around looking at the corpses. In other words by the time the daydreams make a move my forces are annihilated and killing them really wouldn't matter.

What kinds of things in book 3 help ophelia? My understanding is she doesn't get an avatar (though Som'er does). Are their units you'd recommend for her in their? Her restrictions on only taking gremlins is pretty darn limiting.

The problem with Ophelia is that she has a lot of offensive power and not a lot of defense. Having numbers can mitigate that, but you'll need to buy more Bayou Gremlins.

Like I said, though, I think Gremlins are at their best with Som'er and running Ophelia as a minion.

In Book 3, you get Lenny and McTavish (I'm not certain if he's allowed under Ophelia). Both have their uses.

[Cornelious1424]

With Som'er you don't need a lot of soul stones. Mosquitos would be nice against the Dreamer, they have high Wp and Df. Also, a chain Pull My Finger can be nasty when the enemy clusters. Never underestimate Pere and Ophelia together, that combo can smell death for your opponent if they aren't careful.

[magicpockets]

Picking up on something you said earlier about Pere going -1wp when defending. Terrifying is a simple duel so yo are not a defender, might n help much but it's an extra WP point

[Math Mathonwy]

The game is balanced faction against faction - you should pick up Vickys or Hamelin against the Dreamer. I don't think that Ophelia can really win the Dreamer if Dreamer player has even the faintest clue of what he's doing.

A good Dreamer player should neutralize Pere really easily, for example.

Have you noticed that Ophelia has paired, btw? She is extremely killy herself but unfortunately the Dreamer crew has perfect counter to her (and her whole crew) in the form of Stitcheds (and Terrifying, but Stitcheds are the real culprit in, when well-played, effectively neutering Ophelia's crew completely).