Exorcist - one too many anti-resurrectionists?

[Calmdown]

2. Buh, Your comments suggest that we should include friendly games and non competetive environments when pointing out issues in malifaux. That's a damn good question to ask. Should tournament players and the issues they face be weighted more heavily then casual players?

In many games and many genres - not just this one - the issue is always raised of competitive play vs casual play, and the answer is always the same. Friendly players notice balance issues less, or care about them less; but they're either happy or ambivalent when said issues are fixed. So at worst, changes to improve high level play make no difference to casual players. At best, you make them happy too. In both cases, you make competitive players happy. So it's good all round.

[Dolomyte]

isn't that what is was doing from the beginning? and i said that multiple times that i respect your opinion, even though i do not agree with it at some points.

Im pretty sure that was aimed at buhallin, not you. the comment aimed at you was from other people, multiple other people, because you suggested that calmdown hates or even dislikes the game, when he has at multiple times stated that he really really likes the game. perhaps to the point that when he sees issues that are broken he gets furiously angry when people try to refute them with circular logic and nonsensical arguements. People also tend to pick on one small mistake in a post and ignore the rest of the entirely valid points.

I know his pain.

[sephiroa]

Im pretty sure that was aimed at buhallin, not you. the comment aimed at you was from other people, multiple other people, because you suggested that calmdown hates or even dislikes the game, when he has at multiple times stated that he really really likes the game. perhaps to the point that when he sees issues that are broken he gets furiously angry when people try to refute them with circular logic and nonsensical arguements. People also tend to pick on one small mistake in a post and ignore the rest of the entirely valid points.

I know his pain.

i know i said hate or dislike, but that's what it sounds like,

and i know i was harsh when i said that (mind you is just woke up when i wrote that,,)

once again, I apologise to calmdown for insulting him or whatsoever,

circular logic, if it was, it wasn't from me, and to get angry at evryone just because only 1 man makes him angry, then he needs to get his temper under control,

if you want to have a debate abut something, and he gets angry at me because buhallin says something wrong, does that seems right?

[sephiroa]

In many games and many genres - not just this one - the issue is always raised of competitive play vs casual play, and the answer is always the same. Friendly players notice balance issues less, or care about them less; but they're either happy or ambivalent when said issues are fixed. So at worst, changes to improve high level play make no difference to casual players. At best, you make them happy too. In both cases, you make competitive players happy. So it's good all round.

that's not completely right, the first time my brother played with his collidi crew and showed his stitched togethers, i thought they where to strong for only 5ss, same as the fact that collidi is a henchman 7.

they could change it yess, but changes aren't always better, and i think that there will always be someone who isn't happy whith some part of the game, especially a game like this.

[EricJ]

Thanks for playing everyone. Lets keep it civil and end this. Don't want to have to lock it.

Arguing over semantics and rhetoric aren't particularly worth anyone's time.

[Dolomyte]

that's not completely right, the first time my brother played with his collidi crew and showed his stitched togethers, i thought they where to strong for only 5ss, same as the fact that collidi is a henchman 7.

they could change it yess, but changes aren't always better, and i think that there will always be someone who isn't happy whith some part of the game, especially a game like this.

But heres the deal, its not just 5 of us who are unhappy. alot of people, yourself included, and you've admitted it alot, thiink neverborn are a bit unbalanced.

The first step is shock and denial. there are certainly some people who dont see this as an issue, and are vehemently saying we all need to step off the ledge.

the second stage is pain and guilt. Maybe the game is fine, and we're just playing it wrong. Are we douchebags for taking this list? Wow, I feel like a dick beating my opponent with this list. If you've played the alp bomb, you probably felt that.

the third stage is anger and bargaining. Calmdown is in this stage, I was here not two weeks ago. WHY CANT YOU SEE THIS IS A PROBLEM. STOP BEING SO STUPID. EDIT - I am not calling anyone stupid, I'm just talking about the mental feeling you get when arguing with people on the internet. please dont lock this thread of this statement. just clarifying.

the fourth stage is depression, reflection, and a feeling on loneliness. I can assure you prodigal punk and myself entered this stage. we thought to ourselves that we were alone on the wyrd forums, sometimes it feels that way. Im reminded of the infinity thread when everyone attacked like rabid dogs. This game has a following that is more vehement then I have ever seen. I am not sure why.

The fifth stage is the upward turn. that happened two or three days ago when calmdown started posting. I felt someone else got it. and then Jonas came in, and then necromorph. It is not just me. I am not alone in this world.

the sixth stage is reconstruction and working through. We're trying to do that in this thread and the other. we see the problem, we want to work to make it better.

the seventh stage is acceptance and hope. We are not there yet. I think if we continue these discussions without going into personal attacks, and we really have honest discussions about the issues, that maybe wyrd will look at them with us and perhaps some positive changes will be made.

Edited August 23, 2011 by Dolomyte

[Talos]

that's not completely right, the first time my brother played with his collidi crew and showed his stitched togethers, i thought they where to strong for only 5ss, same as the fact that collidi is a henchman 7.

Just would like to point out Collidi is really henchman 5 as you have to buy one of his dolls which cost 2ss

Like to apologise to you calmdown as it appears I have was playing stitched wrong in our last game in terms to gamble your life's damage.

[Odin1981]

I just have to say this thread is really making me laugh. It starts out to be a cuddle guild thread then transforms into around a 250 post neverborne need cuddled thread whaah. Now I want to point out I am not egging anyone on with these comments nor am I attacking anyone that is participating in this thread.

But in all reality if it is "that important" to have a thread like this is it that hard to make a new one and not have someone get their thread necro'd to oblivion?

[Jonas Albrecht]

Now I want to point out I am not egging anyone on with these comments nor am I attacking anyone that is participating in this thread.

neverborne need cuddled thread whaah.

Try harder.

[Dolomyte]

I just have to say this thread is really making me laugh. It starts out to be a cuddle guild thread then transforms into around a 250 post neverborne need cuddled thread whaah. Now I want to point out I am not egging anyone on with these comments nor am I attacking anyone that is participating in this thread.

But in all reality if it is "that important" to have a thread like this is it that hard to make a new one and not have someone get their thread necro'd to oblivion?

There is a new thread. its called neverborn something something. I made it, two posts down. join the discussion.

[Jonas Albrecht]

There is a new thread. its called neverborn something something. I made it, two posts down. join the discussion.

Also, the Lets Talk Malifaux thread.

[Odin1981]

Have you actually followed this thread from page 1? It was around 5-6 posts about a guild anti-resser argument that somehow got transformed into a completley unrelated tangeant.

[Jonas Albrecht]

Have you actually followed this thread from page 1? It was around 5-6 posts about a guild anti-resser argument that somehow got transformed into a completley unrelated tangeant.

I've followed the whole thing. I think you might have missed my point back there.

[ProdigalPunk]

Have you actually followed this thread from page 1? It was around 5-6 posts about a guild anti-resser argument that somehow got transformed into a completley unrelated tangeant.

It is not completely unrelated. The idea of the thread (by someone I think was fairly new to the game) was that Rezzers were getting another anti model and wanted to know if that was a big deal. Someone said not nearly as big a deal as the Anit-Book they got that was book 2. Then from there it went to "especially the Neverborn section", which finally dissolved into "don't feel bad little Rezzer buddy, the Neverborn pick on everyone".

And here we are.

[ProdigalPunk]

Just would like to point out Collidi is really henchman 5 as you have to buy one of his dolls which cost 2ss

Like to apologise to you calmdown as it appears I have was playing stitched wrong in our last game in terms to gamble your life's damage.

I am going to assume this is a joke, but for the people who took this seriously. Ignoring the obvious in that you would be hiring those dolls anyhow, the whole 7 Soulstone Cache is the highest on any model, let alone a henchman. The worse part about henchmen is their terribly low cache (most have slow to die, so this is actually for the better), which Collidi seems to avoid.

[Math Mathonwy]

It is not completely unrelated. The idea of the thread (by someone I think was fairly new to the game) was that Rezzers were getting another anti model and wanted to know if that was a big deal. Someone said not nearly as big a deal as the Anit-Book they got that was book 2. Then from there it went to "especially the Neverborn section", which finally dissolved into "don't feel bad little Rezzer buddy, the Neverborn pick on everyone".

And here we are.

Yesterday I played my Seamus crew against The Dreamer. OK, yeah, they don't drop corpse counters - not a big deal for Seamus as he isn't really all about summoning. So, what else. Necrotic Ministrations is awesome - oh wait, doesn't work with Nightmares, just my own minions. Oh well. Terrifying 12! Oh yeah, useless. Trail of Fear! OK, makes them more susceptible to Lure and Undead Psychosis, good stuff, but not at it's peak since Terrifying means nothing. The Face of Death. Yawn. That's a lot of seriously cuddled abilities there.

OK, then Bete Noire. OK, can't manifest from Nightmares. Not a big deal as she usually comes from my own dead anyways, but it's sometimes useful to force the opponent to deal with her at an inopportune moment. Feed on Death, bummer. Sever Spine! Dammit!

The game isn't balanced master to master. Maybe I picked the wrong one! Let's see now... OK, maybe I don't see now or else this will be a very long post. Suffice it to say, I'm not sure what the point is in making such a ridiculous amount of abilities not work against most of Book 2 crews. Meanwhile the amount of abilities that the Dreamer crew had with similar restrictions? Well, there's Terrifying and... hmmm, there's something else I'm sure. Right?

[sephiroa]

Yesterday I played my Seamus crew against The Dreamer. OK, yeah, they don't drop corpse counters - not a big deal for Seamus as he isn't really all about summoning. So, what else. Necrotic Ministrations is awesome - oh wait, doesn't work with Nightmares, just my own minions. Oh well. Terrifying 12! Oh yeah, useless. Trail of Fear! OK, makes them more susceptible to Lure and Undead Psychosis, good stuff, but not at it's peak since Terrifying means nothing. The Face of Death. Yawn. That's a lot of seriously cuddled abilities there.

OK, then Bete Noire. OK, can't manifest from Nightmares. Not a big deal as she usually comes from my own dead anyways, but it's sometimes useful to force the opponent to deal with her at an inopportune moment. Feed on Death, bummer. Sever Spine! Dammit!

The game isn't balanced master to master. Maybe I picked the wrong one! Let's see now... OK, maybe I don't see now or else this will be a very long post. Suffice it to say, I'm not sure what the point is in making such a ridiculous amount of abilities not work against most of Book 2 crews. Meanwhile the amount of abilities that the Dreamer crew had with similar restrictions? Well, there's Terrifying and... hmmm, there's something else I'm sure. Right?

to go with the same faction,

take nicodem against dreamer, they don't drop counters, no biggie, you can create them yourself, but you don't need them. your buffing? still works, decay, works, your melee attacks with punk zombies or necropunks, work, the slow from your necropunks? work,

you had some bad luck with the master. with nicodem to buff your undead, you can handle the dreamer

[Buhallin]

Yesterday I played my Seamus crew against The Dreamer. OK, yeah, they don't drop corpse counters - not a big deal for Seamus as he isn't really all about summoning. So, what else. Necrotic Ministrations is awesome - oh wait, doesn't work with Nightmares, just my own minions. Oh well. Terrifying 12! Oh yeah, useless. Trail of Fear! OK, makes them more susceptible to Lure and Undead Psychosis, good stuff, but not at it's peak since Terrifying means nothing. The Face of Death. Yawn. That's a lot of seriously cuddled abilities there.

Trail of Fear only affects living models, so Nightmares are immune there too

Suffice it to say, I'm not sure what the point is in making such a ridiculous amount of abilities not work against most of Book 2 crews. Meanwhile the amount of abilities that the Dreamer crew had with similar restrictions? Well, there's Terrifying and... hmmm, there's something else I'm sure. Right?

So were you able to deal with him? I actually demolish the Dreamer more often than not, especially with Seamus. Hanged + Grave Spirit + Shikome makes for an evil, evil strike team, and Lure still works on them just fine.

But this isn't really anything new, and there isn't really all that much more of it in Book 2. Constructs and Undead were already immune to most, if not all, of that, right from Book 1. The new Guild constructs gave them some (much-needed) immunity options, and while the Dreamer was focused on non-living stuff for the Neverborn, the other half were mostly Nephilim, and therefore living and vulnerable. Seamus and the Terrifying you're complaining about here is one of the most reliable ways to shut down Hamelin, and there are plenty of vulnerable Gremlins. Yeah, Kirai's another one who'll be immune, but you've never been able to rely on morale or corpses against other rezzers.

Yes, it's annoying that a lot of his abilities don't work against the Dreamer, but that's actually the only crew the Neverborn have where that's the case.

[sephiroa]

I am going to assume this is a joke, but for the people who took this seriously. Ignoring the obvious in that you would be hiring those dolls anyhow, the whole 7 Soulstone Cache is the highest on any model, let alone a henchman. The worse part about henchmen is their terribly low cache (most have slow to die, so this is actually for the better), which Collidi seems to avoid.

indeed,

but i understand why collidi has henchman 7, because he is weak on his own, but his minions, provide him with enough power and safety.

he is strong and very fast, you need to kill his marionettes before you can kill him (blasts can ignore this) and he can kill your constructs with his disassemble, and because his crews contains so many models, it's overwhelming

but like any other NB he is strong, but once you know how to beat him its easy

[CRC]

to go with the same faction,

take nicodem against dreamer, ...

I don't get why people keep suggesting this.

There is no format that requires your opponent to announce their master before you get to choose yours.

By the time you know that you're facing the dreamer, at least your master, and possibly your whole crew is set. It's way to late to meta a different master.

[Necromorph]

I don't get why people keep suggesting this.

There is no format that requires your opponent to announce their master before you get to choose yours.

By the time you know that you're facing the dreamer, at least your master, and possibly your whole crew is set. It's way to late to meta a different master.

Exactly. You never know what you're really facing. So saying, "Take x, y, and z against such and such master," is really useless. Sure if you play with the people enough to know what they usually run you can do it, but in any kind of league or torunament, you probably won't know what you're going up against until you deploy.

[Hatchethead]

There is no format that requires your opponent to announce their master before you get to choose yours.

I still maintain that this is a core issue. Any faction can counter any master - or at the very least, an individual master can hire a crew to mitigate disadvantages - but there is no way to predict which master you will be facing. You can "best guess" based on the circumstances (your faction, enemy strategy and terrain/deployment) but it's impossible to know, and therefore extremely difficult to play to any specific strengths versus an individual master, assuming your opponent is running multiple crews. The deep roster of the Neverborn (and the Outcasts, to an extent) therefore contributes to the perception of "overpoweredness", especially when one considers this particular aspect of the pre-game setup.

[CRC]

So you suggest we replace:

1) Choose Factions

with

1) Choose Leaders

Or did you want a

1a) Choose Leaders?

Edit: hmm, choose leaders should probably be after strategies...

Edited August 23, 2011 by CRC

[Hatchethead]

I believe the "Declare Leader" step should occur just before the crews are hired, wherein Masters/Henchman are chosen simultaneously. In other words, both players choose their leader and then reveal it, at the same time, after which soulstones are spent and crews are hired.

I realize this would not eliminate bad match-up syndrome. "Ophelia, I choose you! Hamelin, I choose you! Dammit!" It's all very Pokemon. However, at least then you would be able to hire intelligently, mitigate the uphill battle somewhat with canny minion selection, decide whether or not your Avatar is worth it, etc. If a specific match-up is damn near un-winnable, even under these circumstances, then there's an obvious balance issue that needs to be addressed.

The choice would be made late in the process. You still choose your leader based on the enemy faction, the terrain, deployment type and strategies in play. However, with the opposing leader selection revealed prior to hiring, I feel that now I can make an informed decision, taking proper advantage of this wonderful tool box brimming with potential counters and shenanigans.

Just my two bits.

[ProdigalPunk]

to go with the same faction,

take nicodem against dreamer, they don't drop counters, no biggie, you can create them yourself, but you don't need them. your buffing? still works, decay, works, your melee attacks with punk zombies or necropunks, work, the slow from your necropunks? work,

you had some bad luck with the master. with nicodem to buff your undead, you can handle the dreamer

Really? You are telling me that it is balanced because Wyrd had the decency to let Nightmares be targetable by melee attacks? I just do not understand why Wyrd seems to want to make nothing living. They designed a good deal of the game around living models, morale duels ect, and then go way out of their way to hose that entire area of the game. I don't see them putting bulletproof on 80% of the stuff coming out to cuddle shooting. They even go as far as to do it within their own faction. Spirits no counters, Guild Autopsies no counters, Dead Rider, less counters then the base would suggest. I have mentioned this before, and I think that it will start to shift the other direction, but they are setting a precedent. Guild is going to have a portion of its forces constructs for Hoff, Rezzers will have to dedicate some of their stuff to spirits, Arcanists are already going to have a good amount of constructs as is, and Neverborn are going to have to add more Nightmares for the dreamer, Haemlin has counter denial, Levi is mostly constructs and undead, no one plays Gremlins competitively so that is a joke. I have not seen Book 3 yet, so I can not tell if the trends from Book 2 will be continued, but if they are I fear it will only get harder for Rezzers.