How, oh how, do you deal with Ortegas?

[Halflingspy]

Dear ANYONE,

I love Malifaux. Coming from a previous wargame and other tabletop systems, it feels like a more balanced, nuanced game, where even some of the most 'weak' masters have a good trick or two up their sleeve (Marcus), and the tough ones have weak spots that can be exploited (Pandora). I've been playing for only 2-3 months, and have played against 5-6 different people and quite a few armies. I know that isn't a whole lot, so please, as a caveat, if I'm talking out of my rear or getting this horribly wrong, I apologize.

But how do you deal with Perdita? Just, how? I play Lady J and Sonnia, and I feel like on stats alone she puts anything I have to shame. Add in Immune to Influence and See the Unseen for free, as well as an insane amount of useful triggers and fast (and 6 movement?!), and I just have no idea what to do with her. The fact that she can companion with anything and everything infuriates me.

I have played two games against her now with two different armies against two different players. By the end of the second turn, I have no figures left on the board (25 points for one game, 30 for the other). I've been spending several hours trying to figure out how to have done better this second game that I played this evening, but I can't come up with anything besides simply having everyone more than six inches apart to avoid papa loco's insane blast radius+Obey pushes and explodes. I didn't have line of sight set up with my crew (Lady J) because of cover until the second turn start, where my opponent won initiative and just simply floored me with Perdita/totem/Papa companion trick. Granted, he had really good luck, but it was soul crushing to watch my army crumble with 'Take ya with me' when all I had gotten was a slow to die off with a Death Marshall the round before after being obeyed into enemy lines.

Any feedback would be great, because this family of gunslingers has been making me tear my hair out over and over again!

[harbinger]

I know its obvious and its easier said then done but kill Perdita asap. She has to be your first priority (probably followed by Papa.) Some crews weaken as you thin out the minions but Perdita just dont care because she knows that even alone, shes your worst nightmare. So pretty much your only choice is to get your best melee stuck in immediately (also keep her quick draw in mind.. if active you need to walk in not charge into combat.)

Also lack of terrain is a issue. From what Ive seen, lot games of Malifaux is played with too little terrain. Running across a killing field to engage the Ortegas... well its called a killing fields for a reason...

Last bit of hope can give is to keep your mind on VPs.. if can get to them without getting engaged by all means...

[Ropetus]

Her weakness is direct damage which ignore her Immune to Influence and insane Df. Pulses that do not offer a resist flip (Immolation Demise, Shatter, Controlled Detonation, BOOM!, etc.) are a nightmare for her as she has a low Wd stat and can't sustain many of them. Blasts are less ideal due to her Evasive ability.

Of course tossing an Armored high Cb (ideally paired) beatstick at her works too. Peacekeeper comes to mind from Guild options first. She does have Df 8 but will need to cheat and SS her Df flips if she wishes to continually dodge attacks. She does not have a high SS cache to begin with and once she runs out she can't play as aggressively.

Also make sure that you have enough terrain on the board. Shooty Crews like Perdita's will dominate on an empty wasteland board.

-Ropetus

[marshimartian]

Also, keep in mind that same faction matches aren't ideal. But also remember that that mens you also have access to papa loco, and you can bring abuela to obey him out of range.

[Mawdrigen]

I do not like playing against Ortegas. The problem with them is that they can always work together to definitely kill something you have almost in position if they get initiative.

Some tricks I have tried (not all have been successful) some of these will be transferrable to Guild troops.

Dropping a shikome on Papa when he's close enough to Perdita to be companioned. The Shikome didn't kill him but as he was my announced grudge target, the opponent wanted to make sure I didn't kill him. The Take You With Me pulse killed the shikome and also badly wounded Perdita.

Luring them. Not with Rotten Belles (which is almost impossible with the uniformly high WP's and stubborn) but with tasty looking targets. Once they have done the combined strike, you may be able to drop on one of them to kill them off and possible break the companion chain.

Refuse to engage. With Colette I ensure I have schemes that don't involve engaging with the enemy, then I attempt to mostly avoid them for the whole battle, this works better if they have schemes that require them to deal with you.

Onryo Perdita. When onryo get shot they deal damage back.. When they die I get a seishin and summon more onryo. I suspect she auto passes the giving herself slow if she kills it though due to immune to influence.

[magicpockets]

I suspect she auto passes the giving herself slow if she kills it though due to immune to influence.

How does the ability work? I'm not familiar with it myself, but if it's a wp->## (i.e. a simple duel) then Perdiata is the attacker so Imune to Influence won't kick in (as it's only when you're the defender)

[Hookers]

I don't have many tips for sonnia as I don't have much experience with her, but I can say she is better in melee than most people give her credit for.

One of perdita's weaknesses is melee combat. Yes she has gunfighter, but she can't trigger faster than you which is huge. Lady J can get up to 11 or 13 Cb so should be able to laugh at her Df 8. Also, once you are in melee, you have riposte and she has nothing. Take a fair amount of soulstones. Unlike everyone else however, I would not focus perdita. She is a master and can use soulstones. Having anyone attack her, other than your own master, while she still has soulstones left is a waste of time. Her crew is expensive and elite, so bring enough models to out activate her, and her alpha strike will be less effective as they won't have a super valuable target to go after. Additionally after she does companion everyone, you will have your whole crew left to hit back with impunity, and if you brought more models than her to begin with, you should be able to cause some damage. My target priority would be: 1) papa loco, 2) nino/austringers 3) santiago 4) whatever is left.

Perdita can definitely put out some damage but a lot of her strength is being able to hurt you on your own activation via faster than you and her (0) action quick draw. If you ignore her then she can only do so much, and your opponent might even waste one of her ap with an obey. If you try to kill perdita early then you will waste too many resources. Only attack her if she is out of cards or out of soulstones or both.

[nilus]

As an Ortega player one thing I find really tough is armored opponents. Sure Nino and Santiago can throw out a bunch of shots if they hit there triggers but there damage output is not super and it ends up getting reduced to 1 point over and over.

So if you are playing Guild check out Hoffman and his toys. Peacekeepers and Guardians give them fits. Ryle too. Just watch out for Nino head shots.

[Cadilon]

I also play Ortegas and the one thing that causes me the most fear is getting into melee. Having to shoot into melee to focus fire just ruins my day. I know that can be hard if you are facing Perdita across an open killing field, but melee is the one thing I really try to avoid.

Edited July 26, 2011 by Cadilon
spelling

[Dolomyte]

It sounds like your biggest issue with her is a good chunk of your crew dying to the papa bomb on the first and or second turn.

Austringers with lady j who ignore terrain are good at killing him from a distance. you could also look at taking abuela ortega yourself so she can obey papa to explode on perdita's army. or Hamelin the ratcatcher for the same reason.

If you have 16-26 pieces of terrain on the table you should be able to go cover to cover long enough to survive getting into melee, and in melee her crew falters fast.

[Halflingspy]

Thank you all for your responses!

It seems like what got me was lack of terrain - we only had about 8 on the table, and only 4 were blocking walls. I need to invest in more for my own house, the LGS I go to has a better selection to be sure, we don't seem to use enough blocking and obscuring terrain.

I totally understand the getting into melee, it was just absolutely brutal and disheartening to be annihilated on the second turn like that so completely. I do grant that there was a lot of good luck for Ortegas/bad luck for me that kicked in, but still. I had exactly zero chances to engage before the papa loco/obey train decided to wreck me in horrible fashion. I had an austringer on my own and was looking forward to using it (my one hit in the game, a weak on papa in the first round), but the 6 inch blast is simply obscene!

About hitting her indirectly, I like that plan too, maybe Sonnia would be a better choice against her, it just seems terrain really matters that much against her.

I play guild myself, but I cringe at getting Perdita myself because I just simply know how violently powerful she can be.

[Necromorph]

Yes, keeping her minions tied up in melee is HUGE....getting there is the problem.

Everyone knows I hate guild, especially Perdita, but I think a lot of the issue people have when going up against her is lack of terrain. If you play the recomended amount of terrain, and set it up correctly so you don't have 24" firing lanes going down the whole board, then she seems much more manageable when she can't just companion-nuke your crew in the 1 turn when you're out in the open trying to close the distance. Granted, a good 'Dita player could always just cover narrow firing lanes and funnel your crew on a terrain heavy board, but they will be much less likely to be able to use companion effectively on offense.

Another bit of advice is that she is incredibly dependant on focus firing. If you flood her with targets, keeping faster, cheaper targets out front, then you have a better chance of getting your units there. Target saturation is the way to go against her.

[Hookers]

Also, while she does shoot a lot, and very well, depending on the strategy that might hold her back. She typically likes to sit back and let you come to her while she shoots at you. Things like Turf War or Distract, Treasure Hunt, Destroy the Evidence, etc. make them leave their comfort zone. Other than Perdita herself, the core crew doesn't really have any objective getters, which you can use to your advantage.

The thing with Perdita is that shooting people is a very straight forward and easy to adopt strategy, so players will typically do very well with her right out of the gate. As you all get more experience you will probably find it evening out more.

With so many unique rules for each model, the burden of knowledge can be considerably high. You will most likely find yourself not doing well against every master the first few times you play against them, and not just Perdita. After you know what they do you can develop ways to counter them and know what to expect and should find the power level evening out a bit.

[Calmdown]

Guild are, in a lot of ways, the scariest of the starting factions. Especially when you're new.

Once you get better at the game, you'll rapidly find that they are unilaterally the weakest faction. They're in the bottom two of the five in book one terms (with Arcanists) and once you add book two, they become the worst faction in the game.

All of that might not mean much to you right now, but I guess what I'm saying is; you're not doing anything wrong. Especially if both players are new and/or on similar skill levels, the sheer ease of playing Guild (point, shoot, do damage) makes a huge difference to early games. Guild seeming OP is something a lot of Malifaux players go through. It will pass.

[Odin1981]

Guild are, in a lot of ways, the scariest of the starting factions. Especially when you're new.

Once you get better at the game, you'll rapidly find that they are unilaterally the weakest faction. They're in the bottom two of the five in book one terms (with Arcanists) and once you add book two, they become the worst faction in the game.

All of that might not mean much to you right now, but I guess what I'm saying is; you're not doing anything wrong. Especially if both players are new and/or on similar skill levels, the sheer ease of playing Guild (point, shoot, do damage) makes a huge difference to early games. Guild seeming OP is something a lot of Malifaux players go through. It will pass.

Lol mate, oh well to each his/her own when it comes to their opinions but I would easily rate guild in the top two in my own humble opinion (neverlose being #1 outcasts a close #3 ressers #4 and arcanist #5 discounting colette from being included with them).

As to the title poster I feel your main problem is this you are guild also so their are two main weaknesses you have with the faction outside of three models we aren't quick (dita, guild hounds, watcher), and the second is more a non issue just about every model (minus hoffman assets) being living.

The best advice I could give you is consider investing in lucious and two austringers. Austringers outrange ortega's minus nino. And assuming your a lady j player lucious is the "best way" at the moment of delievering lady j "quickly via (0) reinforcements to a area for her to clean up and get in the heart of a "ortega nest".

The nest I'm referring to is the general 12-18" area she will have just about every model of hers in minus dita herself that advances uniformly up to the 10" dead zone she wants to work in. Or 2-3 groups of 2-3 models are generally the two prefered options of deploying a ortega crew.

[sephiroa]

i never played against papa, but if you focus on him and perdita, you can take them down.

i know that a perdita player always has less soulstones than when i play with me rasputina, i just simply outshoot them even with the evasive, i can kill santiago with relative ease, and do some big damage to perdita. she only has evasive 2, meaning i can do 2 damage with my blasts when i do a severe. it takes 3 casts to acctually kill santiago, so that would be 6 damage, and even when i cast at perdita herself, raspy can take her down, or i throw my ice golem at her, or snow storm.

esspecially snow storm is good agains ortega's, with spirit and bulletproof + you could give her armor.

never tried snow storm agains ortegas, but I'm sure it will work.

[Dark Alleycat]

Ok...how does Sonnia deal with perdita? well we have a couple of good options honestly.

Your flame wall will block her line of sight to you. but you can still target her. You blast one of her minions with a flame burst and push the blast onto her. yes she takes less damage from it then you would like,but its something,and you can do it 3 times in a turn. And since she is taking 1 damage at a time,she wont likely ss it.

Also,you can Send Sammael hopkins after her,you get a good card for him,or pick a time for when she doesnt have cards to cheat...he can kill her in one shot. he does 5/6/8 with a normal hit to her,and has a cb of 8. so its a straight shot,but she has SS so make sure to time it proper.Also,if you have the cards for it,he can riccochet shots to do 1/2/4. Also,and this is absolutely hilarious...use a little bit of outcast help and bring a freikorp specialist and librarian with Sonnia. Librarian heals and does bonuses to magic flips,the specialist makes papa loco flip out due to "your flammable" trigger.

You can also do a lawyer to accomplish the same thing. Anything to make Papa loco run at double his speed away from yoru troops means his obey uses are limited.

With a Riccochet shot off Francisco into the near dead papa loco standing behind him supposedly safe,I killed the executioner,papa loco and Francisco all with one bullet.

use your witchling stalkers to close,be ready for Santiago to drop to one wound and hit him with violation of magic. do the same thing to Papa Loco. Hell do that to every one of the family that you can. Get stalkers in close and when she kills them the pulse does a damage to her. Also remember that you can drop blasts on them for reduced damage.

And when they are down to one wound,you violate of magic them,replace them with a fresh stalker and give another 2 inch 2 damage pulse.

You also hug cover every chance you get,that negative flip will help against everyone but Nino. But even Nino needs LOS,and that is what Flame wall does really nicely. If you take a totem,I prefer governor's proxy,you can put out two flame walls a turn. thats 4 of the 50mm pillars blocking LOS.

Edited July 28, 2011 by Dark Alleycat

[Doctor Amos]

General tips for keeping a good cowgirl down:

--Attack her Ca. It's her, and her kin's, real vulnerable spot. Collette's good for this.

--Get indoors. When nino doesn't draw LOS, you win. This also lets you do stupid things later.

--"Hey gang, let's split up." If you can, force the family apart. Differing speeds and far-flung objectives make it hard for them to concentrate fire, and lets you leisurely pick them off.

--Out-Activate. With an elite family, they tend to move in a clump. You can net large overactions.

--Surprise! Sprits (and Lilith, Dreamer, et all) like to ignore terrain, especially walls. This means you can burst forth to get the jump on them. Using models like Nicodem and Lilith, who vomit out their own terrain, also helps.

--Pick on Papa. No matter how many times I mind-control Papa and make him murder his family, the local 'Dita keeps taking him.

Edited July 29, 2011 by Doctor Amos

[Mawdrigen]

How does the ability work? I'm not familiar with it myself, but if it's a wp->## (i.e. a simple duel) then Perdiata is the attacker so Imune to Influence won't kick in (as it's only when you're the defender)

I believe it is WP > 12 so yes immune to influence would not effect, so you COULD slow her down a bit...

[Ciaran]

As a Perdita player I must say: I don't like all the great advice for beating my crew flying around in this thread

It IS great advice.

Dark Alleycat and Doctor Amos have some particularly insightful and actionable suggestions. I'll be looking for ways to minimize those....