Vorzakk Posted January 19, 2011 Report Share Posted January 19, 2011 I’ve always really liked sniper-type models in wargaming, so when I got into Malifaux I was really excited to learn of Hans. Not having learned the ins and outs of the game yet, he seemed very cool and effective; and he was actually one of the first models I got. But now that I’ve been playing for awhile, I’m becoming steadily disillusioned with what was once one of my favorite models in the game; especially when I compare him side-by-side with Nino Ortega. Either the character is broken, or (more likely) I’m missing something; perhaps someone can tell me what. Let’s start by comparing him with fellow long-gunner Nino Ortega…. - Range: 16” for both. - Cb: Hans has 5 (ram); Nino has 7 (ram). Really? Seriously? The ‘heavily sought-after’ veteran mercenary gets totally out-shot by a kid wearing green socks? Plus Nino has the “In My Sights” spell which doesn’t have a suit requirement and which increases his Cb even further. - Damage: Nino’s weapon does a little more damage on Moderate. - Ignoring cover. Both models can; but Hans only can when he hasn’t moved and is targeting only a single model. Nino can do it all the time. - Shooting through obscuring terrain. Ok, so Hans can see through an unlimited amount and Nino can only see through 6” worth. Big deal. First of all, just as with ignoring cover, Nino can do this all the time but Hans is restricted to when he hasn’t moved and is only targeting a single model. Most spells that I’m aware of which create obscuring terrain (like the Stitched Together’s ‘Creeping Fog’) only have a radius of 3 or 4 inches, so the 6” that comes with Hunter is more than enough. The only time Hans would really have an advantage is if most or all of the board was covered with trees; and even then, I’d still rather have Nino because his Scout ability would allow him to more easily move through it. - On a related note, what’s the point of Hans’ Goggles. The only spells I can think of which affect LoS are ones which either create obscuring terrain or grant cover; both of which I’ve discussed above. - Hans can also ignore intervening models; but in all of the many games I’ve played, this has come in handy exactly once. * Now if this ability meant that he could pick out a target in close combat, THAT would be fantastic and would make the model completely worthwhile; especially since I tend to play him alongside a lot of melee specialists (Viktoria Sword Mistress, Taelor, Bishop, Misaki). Alas, I’ve seen other threads on this topic in these very forums and my understanding is that that is NOT the case. Maybe the powers that be will at least consider this for an errata. That would really make the character a true sniper and make him worthwhile. - Triggers. Both have the Headshot trigger. Yes, Hans has one that will automatically give him an extra point of damage on one shot; but Nino has one that might give him a while ‘nother attack. - Hans does have that nifty custom ammo spell, but he needs a 7 or better in a particular suite and you’ve got about a 15% chance of flipping one if you don’t have one in your hand to cheat with. Not the best of odds. And then to add insult to injury, along comes the Gunsmith who can do the exact same thing for FREE! So there you have it. And now I ask of you, Malifaux players with more experience than myself (which is probably most of you)… What am I missing with Hans? Why does he cost one more soulstone than Nino, who seems to be able to out-sniper him in every way? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sholto Posted January 19, 2011 Report Share Posted January 19, 2011 (edited) Wait till you get a load of Rami LaCroix! I have to agree - Hans is underpowered for his SS cost. He can only manage 2 shots per activation, and even if he is Obeyed he loses the benefit of Custom Ammunition. Compare with Nino who gets Obeyed by his big sis left, right and centre (and retains In My Sights while doing so), and Rami who can get Fast (and who retains Gremlin Sights on the off-chance he gets Obeyed by someone). Nino can get extra shots off and Rami can do double damage if they get their triggers, whereas poor Hans is left with a +flip and +1 Dmg on a 2/2/5. You're not missing anything, I don't think. You've summed him up pretty well. He's not bad, just poor in comparison to others. Edited January 19, 2011 by Sholto Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sliver Chocobo Posted January 19, 2011 Report Share Posted January 19, 2011 Arcanist can't hire niño, simples (I hate that dam Meerkat) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ratty Posted January 19, 2011 Report Share Posted January 19, 2011 I think it's fairer to compare him to the Trapper. If your Guild you won't be using him unless you already have Nino. His main advantage is you can put him in a crew like Ressurectionists that have no access to long range firepower Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LoboStele Posted January 19, 2011 Report Share Posted January 19, 2011 With other games I've played, the factions like the Outcasts, which are able to be used in any of the other factions, are almost always more expensive than "in-faction" models that can do the same thing. It's usually seen as a way of balancing it against the fact that the model can be used with any other combination. I tend to agree overall though. Hans is a tough sell in many ways now. It seems that you've found his Errata though, so that's at least a start. With Critical Strike, Hans is now a 3/3/6 all the time, and even more if you have more :rams in the attack flip. The other thing Hans really has going for him is Bulletproof 2. It's unusual for Hans to get attacked by melee pieces, because he's usually sitting WAY in the back where he can snipe stuff. So that Bulletproof 2 goes a LONG way to keeping him alive. Overall, I feel much the same way though. I play mostly Arcanists, so I pretty much always choose the Gunsmith over Hans, and that's mostly for the free custom ammunition spell, and the fact that the Gunsmith has Paired and has easy access to for damage flips with his (0) The Hard Way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sliver Chocobo Posted January 19, 2011 Report Share Posted January 19, 2011 I think it's fairer to compare him to the Trapper. If your Guild you won't be using him unless you already have Nino. His main advantage is you can put him in a crew like Ressurectionists that have no access to long range firepower I agree the trapper is better in every way, exaption of he can't work with killjoy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wodschow Posted January 20, 2011 Report Share Posted January 20, 2011 Well.. Niño is overpowered and Hans is slightly underpowered. Outside a Rasputina list (and only when on a suitable board) I don't see Hans being efficient at all. But who cares about efficiency anyway? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karn987 Posted January 20, 2011 Report Share Posted January 20, 2011 (edited) Did you remember to bring bullets for him? Yeah I agree, Hans is a bit underpowered and Nino is a bit OP. I always wished Nino got a bit of a downgrade (Ie Nino sound be CB5 >.>) but oh well =) I think he competes with the Trapper more as people have said. Hans does have some versatility in how he can shoot which is not a bad thing. With Neverborn, Zoraida can make some good use of him, Obeying him to attack and then having the Doll do the same. But that can be said about the trapper to. I guess it boils down to what you want. Versatility or the Trappers all around bad-ass-a-tude. Though from a Neverborn point of view... Hans is a generally larger Pain in the Ass if you rely on Stitched Together because their fogs are larger then 8" and Hunter just won't cut it against them. But I think Han's is just a bit of an outdated model sadly and has fallen aside. I do hope he eventually gets a little buff or Nino gets a debuff, but for now it is what it is. Use him if you like him, but if you want raw statistical power... well you already know the answer to that. =) Edited January 20, 2011 by karn987 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ratty Posted January 20, 2011 Report Share Posted January 20, 2011 Personally I think the Trapper is more versatile. It can move and still get a shot off. Add to that reposition. I've seen a trapper spend 4 turns retreating from the Judge, shooting the whole time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karn987 Posted January 20, 2011 Report Share Posted January 20, 2011 Personally I think the Trapper is more versatile. It can move and still get a shot off. Add to that reposition. I've seen a trapper spend 4 turns retreating from the Judge, shooting the whole time. ... ow... poor Judge >< Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oozeboss Posted January 20, 2011 Report Share Posted January 20, 2011 Happiness is a list with 2 Trappers and Hans. :rocketwho:rocketwho:rocketwho :marshmell:marshmell:marshmell:marshmell:marshmell Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nilus Posted January 20, 2011 Report Share Posted January 20, 2011 I like Hans but I think the Trapper has one ability up on all the other snipers in the game. That is they don't suck in Melee. I have had several times now where my opponent has gotten a model into melee with the Trapper to get him to stop shooting, only to realize to late that his knife is also deadly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Natty Posted January 20, 2011 Report Share Posted January 20, 2011 Indeed. It makes no sense to compare Hans to Nino. One is guild and one can be hired by anybody. That is the difference. If you want to compare Remi to Nino, I say go for it. They are faction specific and similar. If you want to compare the trapper to Hans, I say go for it. They are both mercenaries and similar. PS - I still say Nino is the best model in the game pointwise. Comparing anything to Nino is unfair! Always remember though: In order to play Nino, you have to play guild and just... ewwwww... who wants to play guild? "Look at me! I've got a cowboy hat! I'm gonna work for the government and eat my grandma's cooking! I sure do love being so boring in this crazy fantasy world!!!" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatchethead Posted January 20, 2011 Report Share Posted January 20, 2011 "Look at me! I've got a cowboy hat! I'm gonna work for the government and eat my grandma's cooking! I sure do love being so boring in this crazy fantasy world!!!" :laugh: I'm gonna magic marker that on a white t-shirt and wear it during a match versus my buddy's Ortega crew this weekend. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oozeboss Posted January 21, 2011 Report Share Posted January 21, 2011 Always remember though: In order to play Nino, you have to play guild and just... ewwwww... who wants to play guild? "Look at me! I've got a cowboy hat! I'm gonna work for the government and eat my grandma's cooking! I sure do love being so boring in this crazy fantasy world!!!" O Lord, now I'm agreeing with Natty!?! Which proves conclusively that tomorrow the sun rises in the west & the world as we know it comes to a shuddering halt. (But at least we'll still have the dancing marshmallows!) :marshmell:marshmell:marshmell:marshmell:marshmell Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Q'iq'el Posted January 21, 2011 Report Share Posted January 21, 2011 (edited) Agreeing with Natty is indeed somewhat unsettling, but how not to? To add one more point of view - Malifaux is not a classical "army list" wargame. You chose your crew after the terrain is set and the Strategy and the Schemes chosen. Some models are extremely situational and quite overpriced, but if you use the game's Encounter system and play all sorts of areas, you will get into a spot where Hans shines every now and then (and thus becomes worth his price). I want to believe this is how specialist mercenary character are intended to be - i.e. allowing factions to patch up the holes in some extreme situations, but not providing any particular way to permanently alter how the faction in question plays. Edited January 21, 2011 by Q'iq'el Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poulpox Posted January 21, 2011 Report Share Posted January 21, 2011 The few times I had brilliant use of Hans were when the board was heavily wooded as it change his ability to shoot a bit. And yes with Zoraida and 4 shots a turn he has performed decently. I like him, but only when the scenery allows Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doctor Amos Posted January 22, 2011 Report Share Posted January 22, 2011 All this... Arcanist talk. Bah. Hans shines where his bullets are the most needed: Resser and Neverborne lists. Hans, Zorida, a Dopplganger, Rami, and a bottle of booze and you got yourself an evening in the bayou. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigmike Posted January 22, 2011 Report Share Posted January 22, 2011 Though i completely agree that the trapper is superior to Hans, i have had Hans go last a few times in games and pulled off a head shot. That is something the trapper cant do......sadly that being said ill bring a trapper over him now every time Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Halflingspy Posted February 16, 2011 Report Share Posted February 16, 2011 Thanks for this thread - I sort of was sold on Hans, just because of how he looked and how he seemed to have some good rules. However, if he has fallen by the wayside a bit, I'll wait a while to pick him up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tadaka Posted February 16, 2011 Report Share Posted February 16, 2011 I would not discount him as a solid model. An often over looked thing is even if the trapper is a better model given that you are looking at colette you may want to pick up a m&su special forces model. Hans will not prevent takeing another special forces model where as a trapper would. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dark Alleycat Posted February 16, 2011 Report Share Posted February 16, 2011 There is one other time where Hans can be helpful. I have had opponents keep a important model doing summons behind two models to prevent shooting attacks from targetting him. Rare true,but ignoring intervening models is occasionally useful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrouchingMoose Posted March 9, 2011 Report Share Posted March 9, 2011 I haven't tried the trapper (although now I'm going to), Hans has always seemed very situational. I only see a use for him in defensive games. I place him behind some wall troops to stop him from getting in melee and alongside rasputina and a silent one, he starts shooting for like 4 or 5 on a weak attack easy. He seems to work pretty well as long as you are using him to defend something, otherwise I would just say use something else Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ducat Posted March 9, 2011 Report Share Posted March 9, 2011 (edited) - Shooting through obscuring terrain. Ok, so Hans can see through an unlimited amount and Nino can only see through 6” worth. something to note from this is hans can see through it, nino and other hunters can only see into it. this is quite a major differance. also put nino on the table, most players will try and squish him like a bug, but put hans on the table, and he has not got a big target on his back. Edited March 9, 2011 by ducat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melnibonean Posted March 15, 2011 Report Share Posted March 15, 2011 I've suffered at the hands of Hans. He seems best used towards the end of the turn when control hands are running low. If he can get off Head Shot (hopefully twice in his activation) he can be lethal. But even getting Headshot off once can be lethal if you opponents isn't holding 2 cards. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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