Natty

I asked this question a long time ago and was told that it worked on your own models to activate them after the opposing models. The wording on a card takes precedence over the book, so they CAN'T activate until every other model has, even though the book says you are supposed to activate a model. I need to leave soon so I don't feel like searching for the thread. Also, for the record, using this correctly is utterly broken and not fun to play against. What I did to dominate a tournament (and will never do again) was to run 4 Silurids with the Doppleganger, Pandora, and her totem. You put the Silurids in the bubble, then after the opponent has finished activating you use their almost unrivaled move speed to hop all 4 across the board and get 4 models worth of attacks (2 attacks each with blood frenzy for up to 2 bonus attacks each). Then the Doppleganger should give you initiative and you companion all 4 Silurids as your first activation the next turn and get 4 more models worth of attacks before they get to go. In every round of the tournament (except the round where the guy quit on turn 2 before I even did this particular trick), I was able to take out every single non-master model on the opposing team with upwards of 32 Silurid attacks (2-4 attacks per model with 4 models over 2 turns before they can even attack back). It's broken and shouldn't work like that.

They are all at Gencon so I wouldn't hold your breath for a ruling. Give it a week =)

I just want to stress that sentence again. Pandora removes any immunity to willpower duels. Pandora requires a willpower duel to attack. Perdita ignores required duels when targeting. Perdita can shoot Pandora. This paragraph is true because ignore is not the same as immune. So let's rephrase what I said but let's rephrase those sentences, replacing "immune" with "ignore". Pandora removes anything that IGNORES willpower duels. Pandora requires a willpower duel to attack. Perdita ignores required duels when targeting. Perdita CANNOT shoot Pandora. See what I'm driving at here?

Ignore and immune are two totally different things. This was made clear in posts long ago. Nothing in the new book seems to change that. If ignore and immune were the same thing, then Perdita wouldn't be able to shoot Pandora without testing wp->wp, which we all know isn't true. The Performer can't be ignored, which doesn't mean her talent can suddenly affect things that are immune.

Agree. Repeat that like 10 times. It is especially crappy for Pandora since taking Bodyguard is almost a given unless you are up against the guild. Bodyguard on Pandora is either 2 free points, or, even better, your opponent putting all his resources into killing Pandora, which is basically the best you can hope for because then your minions have free reign to do whatever they feel like. (Not to mention that I've played games where people put all their resources into killing Pandora and still can't manage it.)

In my experience, Perdita is by no means unbeatable with Pandora. The big problem is that I tend to use Pandora like a giant mallet and love putting her in the front line (as opposed to Karn's strategies that use her like a scalpel). If you fight Perdita or Lady Justice, you just can't use Pandora like a big hammer. The key I've found is to use her speed to hop in, do some damage, and then hop away. Always save enough cards to get away because if you get stuck out there... that's one dead Pandora. I actually have liked to play defensively against Perdita in the few games I've played against her. Take your time, exploit Pandora's speed, take out Papa, harass Perdita, then, when the time is right, move in for the kill.

I've never played against Hamelin with Pandora, but I imagine that it would require putting a lot of resources (every crow you draw) into making the rat catchers fall back as much as possible. If you keep the rat catchers as far from the front lines as possible with constant fall backs, I am willing to bet a Hamelin crew falls apart. Note that, once again, that last paragraph is total theory-craft as I've never played my Pandora crew against a Hamelin crew. I have played my Dreamer crew against Hamelin and ripped him apart with a Teddy bear terror bomb. The Dreamer really has no problem with Hamelin as long as you use terror appropriately. It becomes fairly easy to have all of your crews immune to the rats if you lay down enough terror (and make any rat that tries to get close take several terror tests). So the key is to take out Nix (who becomes the biggest threat with the rats eliminated) with a first strike. Then, make sure that Lord Chompy himself is never left on the table (which is ALWAYS a goal anyway) so that he can never be made insignificant. Advice for the Hamelin play against a crew with lots of terror, if possible, obey a terror model and have it move away from everything else with terror. Have your rats get + to the next flip before moving them in. It is much more important to get + on your terror flip than on your attack flip. The big problem is the opponent using the Dreamer to drop several terror inducing models right in the middle of everything. It will basically ruin your day and is really tough to avoid.

Hrmmmmm... I usually think of the Dreamer as the master to take for a few specific strategies. If it were a battle to the very end with the only way to win is to completely eliminate your opponent, then sure, Nico would be very hard for the Dreamer. But when you consider the ease that the Dreamer can complete some of the schemes and strategies, it is very difficult to stop the Dreamer from getting full points. So basically it would become a match of just trying to stop Nico from also getting full points and tying the game. Stop a single scheme or strategy and you can then disappear and just run away the whole match.

The only thing that I can think of for Nicodem v Dreamer is that Nicodem has a pretty big threat range by casting through the vultures and can potentially attack the Dreamer before you drop off your attack. I wouldn't list this as a major problem as it can be overcome with careful play even against a perfectly played Nicodem. Just be careful about positioning and always watch the vultures. In general, I feel that Nicodem is just a little too slow to effectively fight the Dreamer and I don't really see him as a threat. Admittedly though, I've only ever fought one Nicodem with my Dreamer crew.

Even in the first turns of the game, Pandora is one of the fastest miniatures out there. The key to a fast Pandora is to use your totem to cast Dementia on your own Pandora, so every action she takes requires a wp duel. The duel can be won with most flips or cheated relatively low to win on bad flips. This means that every action Pandora takes requires a wp duel, which gives you a free 4 inch push. This will generally let you get all the way up the board and cast at least one offensive spell on your opponent, hopefully making them fall back with a crow. Then, next turn, you activate first and make a couple more models fall back before retreating your way back down the board. This gives you a significant board advantage for those speed missions, and perhaps let you cause a wound or two on your opponents guys while you are at it. (Note that I always take a doppelganger with Pandora so I can activate her first [due to the +flip on initiative] if I run her up like a crazy person. Also, I always save high cards in my hand for defense since I tend to use her as a front line master.)

Nekima in a small game really is very risky as the above poster said. Also, with your list, after the first grow, all your blood counters are basically wasted so you can't do any mid-game growing. I wouldn't recommend fielding any kind of Lilith list without at least one extra tot kicking around to use up late game blood counters that you get from opponents.

Haha. I'm back on the forums for all of a few hours and I notice a post about the classic Natty Sorrow Bomb! https://wyrd-games.net/forum/showthread.php?t=16777&highlight=sorrow+bomb

Oh, also, I don't see Hamelin as overpowered at all. I see him as a master that even a bad player can do well with because he is hard to play poorly. He is much like Perdita and the Ortegas. They aren't overpowered, but a bad player will think they are awesome because it's really hard to play them wrong. Their abilities are straight forward and hard to mess up, just like Hamelin. <edit> Just reread that post and it kind of sounds like I'm calling the OP bad. That wasn't the intent at all. I have never played against the OP so I have no clue about his skill. All I am saying is that even some random hypothetical bad player would have a really hard time messing up Hamelin because all his abilities are so straight forward and easy to make work. <end edit>

Everyone seems so intent on focused strikes or spells so you don't have to cheat and let Hamelin draw. I don't see the point really. Why not just attack twice? The purpose of focused stuff is when something bad happens when you lose, if you have a minus and want to be able to cheat, or if a model specifically requires it. None of that really comes to mind with Hamelin. Why not just attack twice and don't cheat either time? Think of it this way: Focus means you flip 2 cards, pick the best. Two attacks means that card that was the best is going to get used anyway AND the crappier card gets a chance as well. If they are both high cards, you wasted an action and a high card. Without knowing the tops of each players decks there is no reason to focus against Hamelin that I can see. In all of my games I have barely ever focused my strikes. The game against Lady J comes to mind as the biggest reason I have used focus because riposte is nasty.

My advice for the Viks is to always have 7 or 8 soulstones. The Viks are killing machines and soulstones on the Viks is more dangerous than whatever minion you were going to buy with them. Other than that, they work fairly well with anything. Buy your minions around whatever strategy and scheme you get or want to take.

Indeed. It makes no sense to compare Hans to Nino. One is guild and one can be hired by anybody. That is the difference. If you want to compare Remi to Nino, I say go for it. They are faction specific and similar. If you want to compare the trapper to Hans, I say go for it. They are both mercenaries and similar. PS - I still say Nino is the best model in the game pointwise. Comparing anything to Nino is unfair! Always remember though: In order to play Nino, you have to play guild and just... ewwwww... who wants to play guild? "Look at me! I've got a cowboy hat! I'm gonna work for the government and eat my grandma's cooking! I sure do love being so boring in this crazy fantasy world!!!"

I love defensive stance =) Since the game isn't really about killing your opponents (except for slaughter); I've always felt that defensive stance is a huge part of the game. Let's you stall things out when you know you are going to win.

50ss brawl? Just take the Dreamer with 16 alps and 6 daydreams. Also, wear a helmet so you can survive the real life beating you will get for fielding that crew. --------- More seriously though, Collidi with 8 marionettes is silly powerful. Just abuse the companioned 24 actions the marionettes will have after Collidi gives them fast. To completely abuse him, I'd recommend a lot of little guys to chew up activations and then use the doppelganger and Pandora. The goal would be to eat up their activations and have collidi and the marionettes go last, or have models that can't really hurt Collidi be Pacified so they go after Collidi. Then you activate them at the end of the round and rush the entire way across the field, and attack the opponent with 9 dudes. Then, you win initiative (hopefully) with the doppelganger, and activate Collidi first and get another round of marionette death in between opponent activations. So I'd run Pandora & poltergeist Doppelganger Zoraida (because she summons more stuff in for more activations) Collidi and Marionettes So so far that puts you at 32 points used, so you have 18 points left. 6 terror tots go! You could use 6 terror tot activations, pandora, doppel, totem, zoraida totem, zoraida, summoned wicked doll, so thats 12 activations (plus 1 more per turn of wicked doll summoning). You pacify the stuff you want to activate after those 12 activations, then then destroy him with Collidi 8 marionette bomb. ------------- Alternate first turn attack if they have very few activations. Do the same thing burning 11 of their activations, then activate Collidi and move the entire length of the board, attack with 5 or 6 marionettes that were given fast and melee expert, then activate first the next turn and pull them all back before the opponent can attack. You have a full board length yo yo death bomb. BAM!

I always took the poltergeist but I very rarely used it for that cheap trick because, honestly, it was boring for my opponents. I did it a few times in tournaments and I am really glad that sketch ruled the way he did. The poltergeist is still awesome though. A 7 defense 2 soulstone cost spirit that the opponent can't really ignore. It is a nice way to get them to waste activations and high cards killing it. I used it quite a bit for positioning. Put it somewhere where only specific models can kill it or something has to move to the spot you want them to move to in order to kill it. It is great for getting the field to look like you want and to suck up their resources. If they don't kill it, it can cause an AoE wp test!!! Win. Basically, I think it is amazing for 2 points.

Molly and Levi are both very hard to kill for good. This could be a good combo if someone gets slaughter. Keep those points away from your opponent. Also, if you sacrifice Molly as her slow to die action, your opponent gets ZERO points for slaughter and you get the points for whatever you killed. Nice. Although it's not like she is any better for Levi than a real resurrectionist master in a slaughter encounter. She is just plain good for slaughter imo.

Everyone should read https://wyrd-games.net/forum/showthread.php?t=17795 as that clears up all of my confusions on the new wording.

Whoops, my bad. I have honestly have never even seen the pigapult played and didn't have the book in front of me. I thought I remembered it needing to sac a model before it could shoot; not before it could activate. That'll teach me to talk about models I know nothing about.

Read this thread: https://wyrd-games.net/forum/showthread.php?t=10660&highlight=obey+friendly <edit> Make sure you read past the first few posts because the replies by the first people are wrong. Weird sketch clears it up later.<end edit>

Yes, because you control it. You just can't use abilities that have a friendly target. Also, your opponent could disengaging strike his own models to stop your action. Or you could move a model out of LCB/Lady J melee and then disengaging strike to wound him. The worst is making ranged attacks when you are in melee range of what would have been "friendly" stuff. You need to be really careful and think it out before you obey. ---------------- It may sound odd that you aren't considered friendly to anything but if you were then there would be about a billion abuses to obey, which is already powerful enough! (Stuff like obeying your opponents pigapult and sacrificing their pig to attack their own guy. Or obeying your opponent who has a governer's proxy to charge something with terrifying and purposefully failing the terrifying check to kill him).

You will almost never be able to win scenarios such as reconnoiter that force you to have models in multiple locations. In this game though, you get to know your strategy before you pick your crew. Also, you can spend a soulstone to reflip your strategy. So, you flip reconnoiter, spend a soulstone, and really really really hope you don't flip it a second time. If you do, you better have a couple little guys ready to hold table quarters. All big guy crew is doable though. I have run dreamer with 2 Teddys to great success. Note on your Lilith crew idea: You don't generally want to run Lilith without at least a terror tot or a young nephilim or two because you are just wasting any blood counters you generate. It doesn't exclude you from running big Nephilim as most of your crew, but you will generally want at least a model or two that you can grow.