Wodschow

My post was intended as a reply to Smigs, you simply got there 6 minutes before I did.

Not sure why you're not considering the possibility of both being correct. Family models have it as a (0), McTavish and Sue as a (1). If your assumption is right however and one of them is in fact listed wrongly then I'd say it's almost certainly Sue and Tavish that should instead have them as (0) actions.

'May do something to receive something-else'. If you don't do that something you will obviously not receive that something-else. So Rafkin still has to discard a Counter edit: to gain fast, if he so desires.. All three wordings on 'Passion for His Work' function exactly the same game mechanics wise.

It wouldn't.. Because of the very rules you quoted. Also.. If it did you could move the Pyre on and off multiple times during the same Pyre Command killing any model instantly.. But yea.. Doesn't work.

Book1 models haven't been changed since the V2, I think everything different from the book are in the pdfs, but not actually sure. Ratty made a thread for the changes between Book2 and cards here: http://wyrd-games.net/forum/showthread.php?t=19972

I'm inclined to agree on both accounts.. Although even some of the 'self-contained' requirements require you to go out of your way to complete.. Zoraidas 2 * Crystal Ball for instance mostly just means no Raven and a high mask drain if you try to get it early on. To a lesser extent Seamus' Face of Death and Lilith's Illusionary Forest - you wouldn't normally spend AP on those early on, at least not with the Master. There's also some fairly easy 'enemy interaction' requirements, like Sonnias 10 Wd on enemy models. But yes, as a general rule.. The easiest requirements are all in the 'self-contained' department and the most difficult ones in the 'enemy interaction'.

@Jonas: I would put them somewhere around the middle of the road really.. You aren't all that unlikely to get either of Hoffmans requirements off during a normal game with him and as such don't have to go out of your way to make his manifestation happen. Perdita on the other hand has to spend :masks's to fulfill her requirements. Masks that you normally much rather have spent on Obeys or Trigger Happy's. I think that is much, much worse.. :/

Eh seriously..? I certainly wouldn't say that Hoffman have the worst/most difficult manifest requirements.. Yes, some games it might be harder to pull this one requirement off, however when the enemy does not bring any constructs then it's suddenly one of the easiest requirements there is and one you most likely complete during the course of the game regardless of whether you have payed the 2SS or not.. If the enemy brings a construct without I2I then it's also an easy requirement that just requires a single cast.. If you really think that everyone will suddenly start always taking at least one construct and only constructs with I2I when facing the Guild because they might face Hoffman and he might have opted to bring his Avatar along then yes things does seem a bit unfair, however I consider the likelyhood of this actually happening rather low.

I fail to see why this is gamebreaking.. Care to elaborate?

Not once did I read the rules that way. In fact I thought it 100% clear that they worked the other way around.. But hey..

I still don't see why you'd rather want Juju though.. And even go through such a hassle to make him work at all.. xD

Ehm.. Right.. But why'd you want Juju rather than a Mature? Having to hit your own Juju every turn with the Madness just locks you further down on activation order.. :/ Edit: I like how I'm trying to put reason into a totally oddball-for-fun-list..

Bad Juju is I2I though.. Edit: Also, even if he wasn't I think the Mature still makes for a better Obey target. xD

Soulless being the second. Objects being the third. xD

Zoraida (5ss) Cache Mature Nephilim 10ss 3x Sorrow 9ss Candy 8ss Doppelganger 8ss Let's you have 6 (7 if you resummon the Doll each turn) Obeys and a Mature Nephilim to drop them on.

Wait.. You can only cast Obey once per activation either way...

I thought the plan was to Siphon.. Not to have the Sorrows copy Obey..? Edit: Copying Obey would let you cast it alot more though.. Hmhmm.. To do that you need Pandora though, yes..

Having given it a little more thought, I think you'd be better off using Zoraida for this rather than Pandora. Not having to pay for Hamelin lets you include an Obeyable melee beatstick instead. Though you'll have to take a Martyr aswell then.. Hmm.. Either way the list is going to be low on significant models and the whole trick can be shut down by taking out one of several key models xD

It's like Perditas Spellbreaker on everything within 10". Tokens include Blight, Poison and Burning. Exactly wat constitues an effect is still being discussed.. But just think of it as any buff/debuff imaginable and you won't be far off. So it's sort of a double edged sword as it removes good stuff aswell as bad stuff from both your own models aswell as the opponents.. Very circumstancial, especially with the high AP cost. Much like Fate, the Great Leveler - you have to weigh the pros and cons of casting them, which is perfectly in line with the Avatar of Balance, nay?

Wow.. I was so certain that it was at the start of the linked models activation that I didn't even bother checking it.. But yes, I stand corrected. My apologies..

You can't save the Doppelganger by copying Martyr, by the time you copy it you have already suffered the Wds. What you could do would be to copy link and link the Doppel aswell as two Sorrows to Pandora (or another Martyr), that way the Sorrows could stay in base contact with the Doppel without linking directly to it. All in all I'm not sure if it'd be worth it just for the Obeys.. Mainly because you lack a good Obey target, forces you to certain activation orders, forces you to keep your models close together, etc. Edit: I'm all for alternative lists/strategies though, so didn't intend to dismiss it outright, just stating my immediate feeling about it.

Eh well.. Her 'Shell Game' clearly states that you have 6AP to share between the three of them, and 'Ramos' Gift' that only the first stone used by either of them can be ignored.

Immune to Influence doesn't even protect against normal Terrifying (as you're not the defender in those duels). Soeh..

For all we know the LSPA could have an ability saying it only drops two counters when it's killed.. Would be reasonable as 2½SS/Scrap Counter is already the cheapest ones available (other than the Brass Arachnid). If it doesn't then I'd certainly say that including one or two LSPAs from the beginning just to kill them off for the Scrap would be worth it. Especially if you're going for a turn 2-3 manifest (which I believe will be popular with Ramos). Hell.. I think it'd be worth to include one even if it was on a 40mm base or had an ability saying it only drops two counters.

I still think we deserve to see much more of Sonnias adorably mean side. <3 Oh.. And more Hollow Waifs vs. Mannequins aswell!