Fix Bishop

[KID55]

Hi. Another problem model in Outxasts is Bishop. He almost never tooked in game because he cost a lot (9) and don't live long enough. With his 0" he is very easy to lock. And for defence he only has 6 stats. Too easy to kill, especially because he mend to be in a middle of the battle. Barbaros is much more durable for the same cost.

Bishop should be cheaper, maybe 7 SS. Or have some defence abilities and tools for reaching his target. Adaptive don't work outside activation, so you can't guarantie Cage Fighter. Chaing Gang possible only with another model.

HtW/Slippery/Butterfly jump/Combat Finnice can solve his problem.

Because he should be some sort of damage dealer. But which one? For glass canon he has not enough damage. For a tank - not enough survivability.

[Azahul]

Bishop is squishy, I'm not going to argue with that. He could maybe gain Hard to Kill to bring him in line with similar models in the Keyword. I don't think he needs anything else though. His 0" melee isn't a problem. Engaging Bishop outside his mele range does nothing when he gets 5" of free movement every turn without needing to make a flip.

 

It sounds like you may just be playing him wrong though. He isn't a beater, he's a (expensive, admittedly) schemer who can comfortably kill any other schemer he comes across. Comparing him to Barbaros is laughable. Bishop is a hyper mobile 3 AP model, Barbaros is a centrefield tank with limited mobility who is designed to hold down a spot on the table.

[Galeon]

Hi. For schemes, it would be better to play Ronin. Automatically exits engage, lives about the same, only HtK and the ability to return stones for them is still tastier than Bishop.
About killing other runners, if we ran into him, then something went wrong with the enemy. Either we were going out slowly somehow, or he ran away too fast, but I agree here, Bishop knows how to beat. But 12"  of Bishop (+interactive) or 10" of Ronin (+interactive), taking into account the fact that the second one cannot be kept in its activation, only by sticking models...
12 inches (2"battle tempo + 5"*2 move)
10 inches(2" battle tempo + 3" On the Move + 5" move)
The price 9 of the models does not match its capabilities.
I apologize if I wrote incorrectly:)

[Cromwell]

6 hours ago, Azahul said:

He isn't a beater, he's a (expensive, admittedly) schemer

In the existing GG and overall game state of 3e schemerunners must 1) be durable 2) have possibility to avoid lock. Bishop is neither.

6/6 stats are good, but possibility to kill 9ss runner worth cheating fate and even using hard beater or two average models to eliminate him. Bishop is not ss-user, he can't reduce damage, so his maximum lifetime is about 4 successful attacks.

The poorest thing about his "schemerunning" is vulnerability to engage-lock. Any model with 1+ engagement range can stand within 1" after battle tempo and bishop loses ability to do anything. Ok, he has 3 AP. Spends 1 to reach btb and two for attacks. Even if he kills his locker, that means his activation is wasted with no profit. That means every 3-4ss minion can turn our expensive enforcer into scheme-not-runner. Just compare with Ronin who says "lol, I activate, move 3 and go wherever I want".

7 hours ago, Azahul said:

who can comfortably kill any other schemer he comes across

As I said above, schemerunners are durable and have movetricks. It may be challenge for Bishop even to catch good schemerunner. Just compare him with The First Mate, for example (9ss too). Ronin has almost same mobility, can ignore lockers and even may beat harder. But costs 6. Ronin with wanted criminal upgrade is still cheaper and does more.

[Azahul]

Do people not read Chain Gang on Bishop's card? Yes it requires another model. But we're talking about the Viks. This is not a Keyword where your schemers are going to be isolated while the rest of the crew tries to do the beatdown in the centrefield. Or if they are you're likely well on your way to getting both beatdown and scheming models killed fast...

It's no burden to have someone near Bishop if he gets engaged post-Battle Tempo (hardly an easy thing to do) It's not babysitting an expensive model if you do. The Viks in my experience work best with a MSU style approach to tactics, everyone in that Keyword is so fragile and so mobile that their game plan should always involve support from other models.

Also worth noting, if you run into one of the schemers that Bishop can't kill in an activation, he still renders them Slow and Staggered with one AP and then can Chain Gang out of combat and do his own thing with his remaining actions.

[Cromwell]

Yes, Chain Gang needs smbd near, it's not standalone ability. That means, that you will face occasions when you need to divert your own models to save Bishop from engagement and ruin gameplan for those models that way. And yes, theese situations will happen often. It's Malifaux, bad things happen here.

1 hour ago, Azahul said:

It's no burden to have someone near Bishop if he gets engaged post-Battle Tempo

9ss model strongly requires some support? It seems that something went wrong with it IMO.

[Maniacal_cackle]

2 minutes ago, Cromwell said:

 

9ss model strongly requires some support? It seems that something went wrong with it IMO.

I tend to think the opposite.

A 9 stone model is worth supporting.

If a 5 stone model needs support I'm more likely to be skeptical.

[Adran]

6 hours ago, Cromwell said:

In the existing GG and overall game state of 3e schemerunners must 1) be durable 2) have possibility to avoid lock. Bishop is neither.

6/6 stats are good, but possibility to kill 9ss runner worth cheating fate and even using hard beater or two average models to eliminate him. Bishop is not ss-user, he can't reduce damage, so his maximum lifetime is about 4 successful attacks.

The poorest thing about his "schemerunning" is vulnerability to engage-lock. Any model with 1+ engagement range can stand within 1" after battle tempo and bishop loses ability to do anything. Ok, he has 3 AP. Spends 1 to reach btb and two for attacks. Even if he kills his locker, that means his activation is wasted with no profit. That means every 3-4ss minion can turn our expensive enforcer into scheme-not-runner. Just compare with Ronin who says "lol, I activate, move 3 and go wherever I want".

As I said above, schemerunners are durable and have movetricks. It may be challenge for Bishop even to catch good schemerunner. Just compare him with The First Mate, for example (9ss too). Ronin has almost same mobility, can ignore lockers and even may beat harder. But costs 6. Ronin with wanted criminal upgrade is still cheaper and does more.

So if you spend 12-16 soul stone and win initiative every turn you can nullify bishop. As long as bishop never gets a friend near him. 

Sure he'll die in about 4 hits but that is 6-7 attacks against him of a similar priced model ( assuming you are prepared to commit similar resources to living as they are to trying to kill you). and lots of models engaged with bishop won't get 6 more actions if he just wants to slow them. 

Ronin have less mobility, but are harder to lock. They do hit less hard unless possibly against an armour+2 model. 

Bishop can hit something  20" away. Sure, part of that movement is at the start phase which may be less useful than during his activation, and part relies on a friendly model within3" during part of that movement. That's enough to catch almost every model in the game. 

 

[Math Mathonwy]

17 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

I tend to think the opposite.

A 9 stone model is worth supporting.

If a 5 stone model needs support I'm more likely to be skeptical.

For Schemers, though? I mean, most premium 8-10SS Schemers don't require much in the way of support to do their thing.

That said, I think that the suggestion of dropping Bishop to 7SS is kinda crazy-sounding.

[Maniacal_cackle]

12 minutes ago, Math Mathonwy said:

For Schemers, though? I mean, most premium 8-10SS Schemers don't require much in the way of support to do their thing.

That said, I think that the suggestion of dropping Bishop to 7SS is kinda crazy-sounding.

I think schemer is a bit the wrong tag for him.

He is a team player and a hybrid model, with access to good damage, utility, control, and mobility.

That said I know mileage varies, but I tend to trust axelst/azahul xD

[Math Mathonwy]

3 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

I think schemer is a bit the wrong tag for him.

He is a team player and a hybrid model, with access to good damage, utility, control, and mobility.

That said I know mileage varies, but I tend to trust axelst/azahul xD

It was Azahul who called him originally a Schemer. But point taken yeah - "schemer" encompasses a wide range of models and he isn't a Necropunk or Silurid but more of a Manos or thereabouts, probably  

[Azahul]

To be fair, I like Maniacal's summation more than my own  That is a significant part of Bishop's value add. He's a 3 AP model who can cover 20" in a turn. For 1 point more than the Midnight Stalker you get a model who is comparably mobile (about 2" less movement overall, without the benefits of a Place effect, but only needs a friend instead of cards and gets his 3 AP without any board state requirements) but far more versatile in terms of what he can do in a game. Sometimes he piles on the damage, sometimes he massively Staggers and Slows a model and then heads off to do something else, or he gives you a neat pile of Pass Tokens to guarantee activation control/initiative on a critical turn, or whatever. The one thing he can't do is tank, so you have to be careful how you use him and correctly identify which mode of play he should adopt on a given turn to recoup the points you spent on him. In my experience that will frequently be scheming, but I'd be lying if I said I hadn't used him in the past as a control piece, a damage dealer, or an emergency distraction with Challenge so that my Viks could live for one more activation.

[Axelst]

I agree with Azahul. Bishop is a very versatile model that can easily switch between roles mid game. While 0" engagement is never good, he has enough ways to mitigate the problems it causes. His only problem is his lack of durability. In my experience he always does well if he doesn't die, but not dying can be very difficult for him.

[Fingalen]

And do you, guys, really play him? Like at least once per 2-3 games with Viks? I can understand, what he might possibly be able to do, but there are usually just better models for any job he does in outcasts.

[Azahul]

18 minutes ago, malyzubor said:

And do you, guys, really play him? Like at least once per 2-3 games with Viks? I can understand, what he might possibly be able to do, but there are usually just better models for any job he does in outcasts.

Yep, I play him. Probably more frequently than Taelor to be honest.

[Adran]

2 hours ago, malyzubor said:

And do you, guys, really play him? Like at least once per 2-3 games with Viks? I can understand, what he might possibly be able to do, but there are usually just better models for any job he does in outcasts.

If I have a fixed job in mind I can probably always find a model that does it better or as well and is cheaper. What I get from bishop is the ability to cover multiple roles. If  doing breakthrough and assassinate then he isn't first plan for either, but he is capable cover for either role. I like redundancy in my planning and bishop is normally good at offering that to multiple roles.