New McMourning

[Deathinabox]

I have a question regarding the wording of desperate plot. It says you can remove a marker you came into base contact with due to the push, does that mean that if a model started in base contact with a marker it can't remove that one?

[Whut]

4 hours ago, Deathinabox said:

I have a question regarding the wording of desperate plot. It says you can remove a marker you came into base contact with due to the push, does that mean that if a model started in base contact with a marker it can't remove that one?

It can. At the start of the push (Think T=0 or the first "frame") it touches the marker and therefore is a marker it came into contact with

[solkan]

4 hours ago, Deathinabox said:

I have a question regarding the wording of desperate plot. It says you can remove a marker you came into base contact with due to the push, does that mean that if a model started in base contact with a marker it can't remove that one?

The phrase “came into contact with” appears in a few different actions and abilities (including the rules for hazardous terrain).  While M3E doesn’t have explicit verbiage saying one way or the other (unlike various editions of Warmachine/Hordes), “came into contact with” probably includes the meaning “was in contact with at some point during”, rather than excluding objects that were initially contacted.

Simply because the common use of the phrase (like “everyone you’ve come into contact with while sick”) includes the people you live with (it’s used as ‘ever been in contact with’, rather than discounting persistent contacts).

And, anecdotally, the first hit from a web search on the phrase “come into contact” and the macmillan dictionary both agree with this meaning of the idiom.

 

[Deathinabox]

Cool, thanks guys. That would have been really annoying otherwise

[Trample]

On 10/19/2021 at 6:47 AM, Anthar said:

Right now im thinking of ditching Sebastian in favour of another Kentauroi and hiring a dog from the get go.

Sloth is also on the chopping board as he's another support unit that slows things down.

Size: 50 - Pool: 3
Leader:
  Dr McMourning
Totem(s):
  Zombie Chihuahua
Hires:
  Rogue Necromancy
  Kentauroi
  Sebastian
  Corpse curator
  Gravedigger
    Killer Instinct
  Sloth
References:
  Flesh Construct
  Canine Remains

You're thinking of hiring the dog from the outset to essentially create another corpse marker?  Is it worth it? You're getting 2 from the gravedigger and can use the CC as one. You should have enough to summon an FC and still use one for legs. Right? I guess you would need one more if you want to summon and use Desperate Plot with the trigger twice unless you wanted to kill the CC (and you don't). 

Is Killer Instinct worth it for the Gravedigger? Is he around turn 2? He seems so easy to remove. 

[le_wahou]

This is more a gimmick, but you can get a lot from chihuahua. Going first with Mc Mourning. You move the chihuahua through a corps to give him flurry. Next you bonus action on him to give a good beater attack. At the end of activation, you companion on Chihuahua to murder something

[twelvepeers]

I played Dr. McMourning religiously in 1E. I'm picking up the game again for the first time since 2012, and I'm already set on playing Insanitary as my main.

I've got some fun ideas for lists, particularly with having him tag-team with Luminary. Pyre Markers can combo well with Reduce, Reuse, Recycle. Also, I think there's a lot of potential to take advantage of Horrendous Corpse with Mindless Zombies and Corpse Candles. Not just for creating Corpse Markers or Scheme Markers, but also conserving/stacking Poison.

This is sort of a standard list. Depending on the strategy or scheme, Carrion Effigy could be swapped with Asura Roten, for Residents of Rottenburg.

3ss cache	Dr. McMourning, Insanitary
	Zombie Chihuahua
8ss	Sebastian
6ss	Corpse Curator
11ss	Dead Rider
10ss	Rogue Necromancy
6ss	Nurse
6ss	Carrion Effigy
	w/ Effigy of Fate

Dead Rider conserves his Fate Token on Turn 1, and can summon up to five Mindless Zombies on Turn 2 with a 6 of Crows. That plus a card draw and extra Corpse Marker, five chain activations, and five Corpse Markers that can help you stack Poison. If you can get Poison +3 onto a Mindless Zombie, Horrendous Corpse will drop a Corpse Marker or Scheme Marker, plus Pulse 2 Poison +1. After that, you can kill them and do it again on Turn 3.

 

 

The Luminary list is pretty similar.

[twelvepeers]

5ss cache	Dr. McMourning, Insanitary
	Zombie Chihuahua
8ss	Sebastian
6ss	Corpse Curator
11ss	Dead Rider
16ss	Reva Cortinas, Luminary
2ss	Corpse Candle
2ss	Corpse Candle

You can give Dead Rider Dredge Up with Plastic Surgery, which allows Dead Rider to make Scythe attacks from up to 10" away, drawing range and line of sight from a marker. Target a Mindless Zombie, or a Corpse Candle, or a Pyre Marker, or a Sludge Marker, you'll have plenty of targets. 

Controlled Reaction as a trigger on Dredge Up, plus Reap on the Scythe attack, then chain activate the Mindless Zombies. Gnashing Bite won't deal much damage, but stacking Poison +1  should add up fast.

You can combo with Luminary and stack Burning +1 at the same time.

[Maniacal_cackle]

Wow, that rider/dredge up combo is disgusting xD

[twelvepeers]

I think the interaction with Luminary is really exciting.

Luminary summons Corpse Candles, which are fantastic resources early game, and Lampads, which are very difficult to deal with unless you have a hard counter for Pyre Markers.

A Lampad's Demise (Possessing Flame) ability places the Lampad in base contact with a Pyre Marker within 6", and then the Pyre Marker is removed. This triggers Reduce, Reuse, Recycle so long as the Pyre Marker is within 8" of Insanitary, which places a new Pyre Marker within 2" of him. This Pyre Marker can therefore be placed such that it's within 6" of the Lampad, so it has a Pyre Marker in range for Demise (Possessing Flame) to trigger again.

[Maniacal_cackle]

I wonder if reva2 would be a better leader for the pair compared to McMourning 2, since you don't have to spend 4 stones on the corpse candles.

[twelvepeers]

They are equally Soulstone-efficient.

You pay 2ss more for Sebastian and Corpse Curator, since they're out of keyword, plus 2ss for Zombie Chihuahua. That offsets the savings from the Corpse Candles.
 

[twelvepeers]

Having Luminary as the crew's leader would be better if you opted to drop Zombie Chihuahua in favor of squeezing in Carrion Effigy with the Effigy of Fate upgrade, or wanted to add in a Restless Spirit.

Because you announce your crew's leader before hiring, you can make some tactical decisions by choosing whether to announce Dr. McMourning or Reva Cortinas, since you aren't required to specify the leader's title.

Carrion Emissary has some fun interactions with Insanitary too. Exhumation creates two Coffin Markers, then you summon a Mindless Zombie off the Unexpected Zombie trigger, which removes one of the Coffin Markers, triggering Reduce, Reuse, Recycle, which places a new Coffin Marker within 2" of Insanitary.

The Coffin Markers are Blocking, so you can position one to block line of sight against your opponent's next activation(s).

Obviously you field Creation Simulacrum #29 for extra style points.

[twelvepeers]

1ss cache	Reva Cortinas, Luminary
	Corpse Candle
	Corpse Candle
16ss	Dr. McMourning, Insanitary
9ss	Sebastian
7ss	Corpse Curator
11ss	Dead Rider
6ss	Carrion Effigy
	w/ Effigy of Fate

[Maniacal_cackle]

19 minutes ago, twelvepeers said:

 

1ss cache	Reva Cortinas, Luminary
	Corpse Candle
	Corpse Candle
16ss	Dr. McMourning, Insanitary
9ss	Sebastian
7ss	Corpse Curator
11ss	Dead Rider
6ss	Carrion Effigy
	w/ Effigy of Fate

Why do you need Sebastian? Are you using him to make hounds/more corpses?

[twelvepeers]

Sebastian adds a lot of value. Canine Remains are extremely useful, and Sebastian pays for himself being able to summon them reliably every turn. Flask of Formaldehyde is excellent for stacking Poison +2 on Turn 1, Blood Poisoning is fantastic, and Catalyst adds some extra chip damage.

I'm hard pressed to replace him in either list. I can think of other options, but replacing him means you're also giving up three Canine Remains, unless you're replacing him with two or three Canine Remains, which doesn't make sense.

Blood Poisoning on Corpse Curator let's you deal 5 damage to anything in base contact with it. You need a 4 suitless for the TN, Corpse Curator doesn't resist, and that damage bypasses Numbskull or similar abilities that prevent a unit from taking damage from Poison (or at least I think it does).

[twelvepeers]

In terms of counters, and how to play against them, I would assume that any Master that can take advantage of the resources I'm putting on board would amongst the more difficult matchups.

Arcanists - Rasputina and Rasputina, Abominable 

Neverborn - Nekima and Nekima, Broodmother

Guild - Lady Justice and Lady Justice, Death-Touched 

Bayou - Ulix Turner and Wong

I don't have much insight in regards to the other factions at the moment
 

 

[Paddywhack]

21 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Wow, that rider/dredge up combo is disgusting xD

It's nice, but Dead Rider doesn't usually have much trouble getting to a target anyway. You also need more than one Marker near your target. But, being able to Reap from that far away could be nasty. 

Rogue Necro is a good candidate for Dredge up as well. 

RRR should maybe have been a Leader Only ability, though I've never been fond of multi-master games so it hasn't come up for me. 

[twelvepeers]

Getting more than one marker near your target isn't difficult. I think mobility-wise, Dead Rider is much better, and that's not even considering the ability to summon Mindless Zombies.

[Maniacal_cackle]

1 hour ago, Paddywhack said:

It's nice, but Dead Rider doesn't usually have much trouble getting to a target anyway. You also need more than one Marker near your target. But, being able to Reap from that far away could be nasty. 

Rogue Necro is a good candidate for Dredge up as well. 

RRR should maybe have been a Leader Only ability, though I've never been fond of multi-master games so it hasn't come up for me. 

It is more about the extra twelve inches added to your reap, so you can kidnap models vast distances, even turn 1.

[Paddywhack]

1 hour ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

It is more about the extra twelve inches added to your reap, so you can kidnap models vast distances, even turn 1.

True, but it's a Push so it may be hard to push a model 12" uninterrupted. If you can I might question if you have enough terrain on the board  

Can still get them out of position. At some point though, wouldn't it be easier to hire a Belle? Obviously Rider does damage too. 

[twelvepeers]

Dead Rider summons Mindless Zombies turn after turn, multiplying your resources and draining your opponent's. A Rotten Belle can't do that. Neither can the Rogue Necromancy. 

In theory this combo is an excellent tactic, and in practice, in situations where it can be done to completion, you successfully reposition a model from across the board, which will almost certainly disrupt your opponent's strategy, very early, and continuously.

Even in situations where the push would be interrupted, you can still push a model into an unfavorable position or through Hazardous Terrain Markers, etc.

Also, an interrupted push might still be sufficient in of itself to disrupt your opponent's strategy. 

[twelvepeers]

If I don't play Luminary, I play a Nurse and the Rogue Necromancy. In those cases I have three main options.

Giving Savage Bite to the Nurse

Giving Dredge Up to the Rogue Necromancy 

Giving Dredge Up to the Dead Rider

I could also give Scythe to the Nurse, but less mileage on that than Savage Bite.

[Maniacal_cackle]

Yeah, partial pushes are still good and sometimes better).

Can also be solid anti-incorporeal tech, since those models will push to you in almost all situations.

[Paddywhack]

On 11/8/2021 at 3:24 PM, twelvepeers said:

Dead Rider summons Mindless Zombies turn after turn, multiplying your resources and draining your opponent's. A Rotten Belle can't do that. Neither can the Rogue Necromancy. 

I'm not saying it's not a strong combo, but if you turn all your corpses, even assuming they are all within 8" of McM2, you only get to recycle 1 of those with RRR. How many MZ are you getting a turn when you play? I realize Curator can be one for minimal cost as well. 

Savage Bite with the +flip and good triggers is hard to pass up though. I can see Dredge up on Rider being great especially against an incorporeal crew as mentioned above. Next time I play Dreamer I'm going to remember that  

Sadly, I expect MCM2 and Plastic Surgery to be on the Errata block within a year. There is just too much potential for abuse and too many variables for future models to consider. I'm not sure how they'll change it, but it probably is too good to last.