Some thoughts on purchasing Malifaux models.

[Maniacal_cackle]

Well, Wyrd's distribution model is receiving a lot of commentary at the moment due to the packaging of titles, so I thought I'd share my two cents.

Now of course there are plenty of perspectives to be had here. There's all sorts of considerations that Wyrd has to make (assembling, SKUs for LGSs, etc). But at the end of the day, one critical component of all this is the consumer perspective, so that is the perspective I'm going to focus on.

What sort of consumer am I?

After Magic, I decided I'd get back into wargaming. The first thing I checked was Games Workshop and quickly decided that it was prohibitively expensive to play the game in a reasonable way. So part of the reason I was willing to give a Malifaux a go was the cost-effectiveness argument (and I stuck around because of the great game design coupled with the affordability). But the idea that you get good value for money is an appealing trait of a wargame.

MTG got worse and worse with a particular problem that I hope Wyrd will avoid.

MTG is very effective at brand segmentation. They'll target low-spenders with some products, and high-spenders with other products. MTG creators would even explicitly say "this product is not for you" when receiving criticisms about cost. Now this is fine for cosmetics (like special edition alternate art), but they did it for stuff you need simply to play the game. As a result, the game became more and more split into groups having access to playing the game being based on how much they spend.

I used to spend a few $100 a year on Magic, but eventually concluded that I wasn't really getting access to the game I wanted to play. So I left Magic and looked for another game, ending up spending my hobby budget on Malifaux instead.

First impression of Malifaux.

So when I started playing Malifaux, the keyword system was pretty fantastic. I bought my crew for less than $100 and got in dozens of games with it, and it was a blast.

Initially, I wanted to buy new models because they were fun, not because I HAD to.

To me this is basically the epitome of a hobby game. When you don't HAVE to keep up, but when you're enjoying yourself so much you want to try out other crews/decks/whatever.

Impression of Malifaux after the first few years.

Over time, this sentiment has degraded a bit, but has mainly stayed intact.

There's some issues like wanting to play the First Mate in Neverborn Zoraida, or playing Paul Crockett in a Basse crew... But these mostly seemed like relics of second edition and something that could be forgiven as a strange quirk.

There's also the issue that there's a ton of cool cross-keyword combos (for instance, Revenant/Redchapel, or Elite/Marshal). This is really awesome from a gameplay perspective, but does make purchasing awkward. However, you can easily overcome it by focusing on your main faction, like everything else in Malifaux, so still felt worth it to me.

So even after a few years, I was still buying new models because they were fun, not because I felt pressured to.

Thoughts on the next wave (titles & double keyword models & Zoraida)

So the hot topic of the moment.

First up is the packaging of the new titles & keyword models. We've seen some pictures of 2 title models & their shared keyword model. This of course leaves a bad taste in the mouth, but depending on the price point maybe it makes sense. Perhaps we can view it as just buying two models and getting a third bonus model for free.

But on the other hand, it is disconcerting that they had NO m2e baggage to deal with, and somehow the models end up more inconveniently packaged than the stuff that did have m2e baggage. You can argue that this is the optimal configuration for distributing these models (though I'm not convinced of that), but also they didn't necessarily have to design them this way.

It is particularly annoying that I can't even use these models under the rules. So far, out of the all the assembled crews I have, the only model that hasn't seen the table is Dead Dandies (mostly because I haven't gotten around to it). I like that I get good value out of the current boxes, and every single model sees play (even if it is just in a casual setting).

Now I'm going to have a bunch of spare models that I can't play, but I also can't get rid of in case I pick up their crew someday (and the boxes are not constructed in such a way that you can split with a friend). Doesn't feel great. Although I confess I feel a particular aversion to waste, and this model probably isn't as wasteful as it FEELS.

It's okay, though. Just definitely a step down from the previous stuff.

New Zoraida, though... The more I think about it, the more annoyed by it I get. She can summon from EIGHT different factions, which is just the most incredibly awkward thing to collect. I've dabbled in Neverborn a lot over the years, and now one of the most mechanically interesting models is locked behind a ton of stupid boxes. If you're savvy and get stuff from older editions, you can get her keyword + summons for just over $400USD I believe. That to me is quite ridiculous (and the fact that it isn't officially supported so more realistically you'd have to spend well over $500).

While I'm not sure whether or not I'd actually get Zoraida, it does put me off that there's starting to be crews that are locked behind a paywall. Although I admit maybe I'm jumping the gun - maybe they'll do a special edition nightmare box with all the effigies and a first mate to at least make it a little bit more practical.

Closing thoughts

I'm still SUPER excited to play the game (but then, I was super excited to play magic: the gathering).

However, in terms of purchasing pieces of the game, I feel less good than before. Instead of feeling like I buy more models because I want to, I'm starting to feel pressured to have to buy more models just to get full access.

New title Zoraida is just one example, but it feels bad if that is the direction of Malifaux that some of the content is going to be pay-walled so hard.

Overall, I'm still reasonably happy. I'd say I'm like 80% happy with the distribution model, whereas I started the game being like 98% happy about the distribution model. Still, I'm very conscious that many games I've liked have ended up having quite predatory business models, and if Wyrd starts to feel like it is adopting those sorts of practices I'll probably drop off quite quickly.

What is everyone else thinking? Still mostly happy, with some concern like me? Absolutely outraged? Super excited with no negativity?

[Azahul]

I've been mulling over my own thoughts on the subject, and while not ideal I think this is honestly one of the best solutions Wyrd could have come up with from both a business and consumer-friendly perspective.

 

First of all, the main problem is that they're releasing so many models in this release wave, and because most of them are Masters there is very limited ways to package them based on Keyword. The design decision to release 54 Masters is at the crux of the packaging problem, and is the one part I think can be criticised as the source of the problem. But Titles are clearly a design space the developers wanted to explore, and dividing the Masters across multiple expansions would leave a lot of people waiting years for their favourite Master to finally get a title.

 

Once they'd settled on releasing 54 new Masters, figuring out how to package them was immediately going to be a problem. If you sell them as a box of eight Masters to cover each faction you give anyone who isn't a faction completionist a bunch of wasted models and you have duplicates of the Dual Faction Masters, creating waste for anyone with multiple factions (quite common since dual Faction Masters often act as bridges into other factions). Smaller subdivisions are going to create waste or awkward purchase points that will vary by customer, and the large boxes would be expensive and that's not necessarily easy to swallow for the many people who ration their hobby budget and don't have all the money in the world to spend. Many, smaller purchase points allow for incremental collecting that favours those who can't easily justify the big buys.

 

Then there are the dual-faction models. I get that a lot of the new titles would be easier to design if they were going to come with new releases that build in and support the new playstyle in a way existing models might not. The new Anya/Toni pairing is a good example. Making them all dual-Keyword is a good idea because it halves the number of new models Wyrd needs to design for an already large release wave. Making them all dual-faction as well is more contentious, but it means every faction gets 8 new models instead of the 5ish (depending on how the dual-masters broke down) they'd likely have ended up with if an effort were made to keep those dual Keyword models within the same faction. More toys is, generally speaking, a good thing, especially done in this elegant way that adds new models to every faction in a way that minimises the number of actual new models total in the game. What they've gone with is a really elegant design that maximises design bang for buck, and I'm more a fan the more I think about it.

 

Once dual faction, dual Keyword models existed though, there was really no other way to package them other than the way Wyrd has chosen to do them. If they had split them into faction boxes, you'd often end up in situations like an Outcast Viktoria player needing to buy the Ten Thunders faction box to get Kenshiro and end up with two or three Ten Thunders model they'd have no way to use. Doing that for the 3-5 non-faction new models available to your faction's Keywords would rapidly outpace the number of wasted models than the current release model. 

 

The only alternative I could think of would be to duplicate the dual-Keyword models. So to take the example from above, the Viktorias would come in a box with Kenshiro and Yan Lo would come in a box that also contains Kenshiro. However, from a production standpoint, adding the third model to the sprue probably doesn't increase each box's price point as much as you'd think. As far as I understand miniature production, making the molds is the most expensive part and making a mold for a sprue containing three models is likely to represent a considerable saving over creating two different molds that duplicate one of the miniatures in them. And if you make Wyrd spend more money to produce the miniatures, then the boxes are going to cost more. Since materials don't represent very much in terms of production costs (certainly nothing compared to molds), it's entirely possible that the boxes we're currently getting don't really cost materially more than if they were divided out into two model boxes that don't contain the other Master.

 

Finally, the obvious solution would be to sell every model as an individual. That would prevent any packaging concerns. But SKU bloat is a serious problem if you want a game store to stock your product, and ultimately we usually want our game stores to have an easier time getting Malifaux on the shelves. The reason Malifaux has awkward purchase points to begin with is because of a conscious effort by Wyrd to make sure stores can get their models, and while it can be a hassle I think it is ultimately good to minimise this problem.

 

The Zoraida issue is a thorny one though. As far as I can tell you can probably get away with only having a couple of Effigies, and one of the generically good ones I see as being a good summon in any game (the Lucky Effigy) belongs to one of Zoraida's factions and is likely to be owned already. She doesn't strike me as likely to be summoning every turn so not owning her full roster is unlikely to come up in most games. But to perform on the cutting edge of competitive play where you never want to lose a game for not having a particular niche option at exactly the right moment (and if borrowing minis isn't possible) she certainly is quite awkward to play. I don't have a defence for that one.

[fire5tone]

Minimal to 0 negativity towards this

I believe this to be the optimal method aswell, for players, stores and wyrd themselves, if you can think of a better solution I'd gladly talk about it

To me the only better answers to it would require going way back and changing how the connectors operate, either by making them all not duel faction (Wich could cause some weirdness with duel faction masters) or just not everyone gets a new model and you get single model boxes for titles, or... The faction box while leaving a bitter taste in the mouths of people who just got a title

[Insomniakwulf]

So whilst I understand entirely  where you are coming from i have a few counter arguments. 

1. The more you collect the less daunting the split boxes seem as someone thay collects every faction, I won't have any wasted models and on top of this the price point is likely to be far more reasonable than a faction box, which is probably even more daunting to non completionists, as if you only play one or two masters in a faction paying for every master would be prohibitive, on top of this if they did faction boxes its likely completionists would end up with far more wasted models. 

2. Zoraida having puppets, yes its alot to purchase for every option, but this is no where near the level of m2 hiring, marcus with every beast, hamelin with every lost, Leveticus with every horseman, undead or construct,and on top of this not every option is neccesary. 

3. Lets be realistic individual boxes were never really am option as wyrd had to change how they packaged their models as retailers complained that they had too many skus, whilst some people dont like how these new boxes are packaged stores are likely to stock them whereas many lgs refused to stock malifaux towards the end of m2 as they had dead stock, and 70+ new skus would likely upset retailers, personally id prefer to have a models that i could use for kitbashing than have my local store decide that my favourite game needs too much shelf space to be worth stocking. 

4. Lastly the option thay people seem to be asking for is individually packaged models, these retail for $11-30 dollars in guild alone with the average being close to $15, now most 3-4 model boxes are priced around $35-40 dollars it would likely cost the same if not more to buy just the models you need from the new boxes as they would have increased costs due to additional packaging, shipping and other overheads. 

[Maniacal_cackle]

Totally agree that it isn't *that* bad (still 80% happy), but would not want to see the trend continue too much. There are a lot of factors beyond just consumers for sure.

I don't think individually packaged models is the answer at all (that's just TERRIBLE economies of scale).

I do wonder if they could have done something different. For instance, each faction appears to be getting ~4 new models (I assume), so you could have put the 4 resurrectionist enforcer/minions together. This at least makes for good box splitting options and means that it is still more faction-oriented.

That said, I'm sure there's some logistics there to work out.

The bigger thing would be that I hope the next design phase takes some of this into account where possible (although I admit it also is kinda cool having stuff designed to suit two keywords).

[Azahul]

6 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

I do wonder if they could have done something different. For instance, each faction appears to be getting ~4 new models (I assume), so you could have put the 4 resurrectionist enforcer/minions together. This at least makes for good box splitting options and means that it is still more faction-oriented.

The issue with that model, to paraphrase myself, is when an Arcanist player needs to buy the Resurrectionist box to get a model for one of their Keywords. And then has to do the same thing for three other factions, ending up with around a dozen wasted models they can't use.

 

It's an option but it still isn't a great one.

[Rufess]

Another solution is selling the combine boxes as now, while selling individual model online just like the special order program.

Makes the program in limited time such that current players can buy without waste, and new players come into the game later, who have a smaller collection which means less purchase, will buy from store and hence not hurting the store so much. The only victim is Wyrd who has to make room for storing all individual new model so everyone is happy.

[Maniacal_cackle]

3 minutes ago, Azahul said:

The issue with that model, to paraphrase myself, is when an Arcanist player needs to buy the Resurrectionist box to get a model for one of their Keywords. And then has to do the same thing for three other factions, ending up with around a dozen wasted models they can't use.

 

It's an option but it still isn't a great one.

I think it depends on how reliable the second-hand market is/box splitting is. The distribution model I suggested could result in less overall waste, but yeah some might end up worse off.

Of course the main answer is 'solve before you design' is really the only way to tackle it.

4 minutes ago, Rufess said:

Another solution is selling the combine boxes as now, while selling individual model online just like the special order program.

Makes the program in limited time such that current players can buy without waste, and new players come into the game later, who have a smaller collection which means less purchase, will buy from store and hence not hurting the store so much. The only victim is Wyrd who has to make room for storing all individual new model so everyone is happy.

One issue is this just kicks the problem down the road. Then there's a bunch of split models running around, and then you might later realise you want to expand into a new faction and have to double up again xD

[Maniacal_cackle]

Although I should note that for me personally... I'm wayyyyyyyyy more annoyed by the Zoraida stuff than the title boxing.

Again, I sort of just see the title boxing as buy 2, get 1 free (depending on the price). And looking at it that way, doesn't seem too bad.

[Maniacal_cackle]

28 minutes ago, Insomniakwulf said:

2. Zoraida having puppets, yes its alot to purchase for every option, but this is no where near the level of m2 hiring, marcus with every beast, hamelin with every lost, Leveticus with every horseman, undead or construct,and on top of this not every option is neccesary. 

To be fair, whenever I hear about collecting M2E, I think to myself "that sounds like a nightmare to collect, I'm not sure I'd have played the game back then."

Although also I'm a bit of a weird one, anyway, so not sure how much opinion should count xD

[wizuriel]

If you want the real horror story you need to find the m1e Zoraida 😛 she could hire any model with wp 4 or less except for the models with animosity Zoraida who could not be hired by her 

[Maniacal_cackle]

1 minute ago, wizuriel said:

If you want the real horror story you need to find the m1e Zoraida 😛 she could hire any model with wp 4 or less except for the models with animosity Zoraida who could not be hired by her 

Haha, well good to know the overall trend seems to be improving 😂

[Hermit]

M2e Zoraida could hire any wp4 or less model too. Including Samurai and Nurses!

[Cats Laughing]

23 minutes ago, Hermit said:

M2e Zoraida could hire any wp4 or less model too. Including Samurai and Nurses!

She had a Living model restriction, but, otherwise yeah... (same in m1e fwiw)