Toni Ironsides, Union President

[Jinn]

Revealed on Steam Powered Scoundrels episode 36. Along with Drudges. (and an alt Anya Lycarayen, but who cares about her)

[Peturd]

Definitely an interesting take on Toni! Besides the obvious leaning towards schemes, they also get slightly more resilience for the minion heavy crew her abilities encourage. Both her and the dredge have some healing now, to go with Mouse’s. And the swarm feeds into it. Plus the wording on Stand Together makes Fitz even better by him now making potentially everyone armor 1 and hard to wound.

I can definitely see taking either or depending on lots of factors. Have to wait to Sunday to test it out!

[Jinn]

With Stand Together Amina can draw a card from Walk the Line on full health targets, and Mouse gives Ironsides two adrenaline with his bonus action.

Does it work for things like Code Red on the Medical Automaton I wonder? It would only work on things with 5 or less max wounds but it would enable the Automaton to teleport 6" as a bonus action towards them if they're near a scheme marker, could be very strong. Also uber charges it with power tokens on turn 1 with Emergency Mode. It'll be healing for 3/4/5 all game as long as you keep the rams coming.

[Jinn]

I just realised that due to the summoning rules (p. 32 of the rules manual) Ironsides will need LoS to any Drudge that you summon.

"Summoned models are placed into base contact and within LoS of the model whose Action or Ability Summoned them unless the effect states otherwise."

It states otherwise for the restriction on where they're placed but not for the restriction of requiring LoS.

That's going to make it a lot harder to do work with her given how much less threatening she is; she won't be able to sit in the back if the schemes are needed in the enemy deployment zone for example. Her effectiveness will likely depend on how open the board is and how far up you can summon while in her LoS, especially given it'll take a turn for the Drudges to actually start moving due to Mindless.

[muraki]

17 hours ago, Jinn said:

Does it work for things like Code Red on the Medical Automaton I wonder?

I would say yes to emergency mode and no to code red as code red specifies a number, while stand together just says 'treated as under 1/2' tho I'm sure someone will try and use rj rules to say 'i can treat it as any number under 1/2 so I'm treating it as 1 wound' but that doesn't feel like the intent.

Seems to be more of a 'your life is either under 1/2 or there's a scheme marker nearby to make life based abilities work' rather than 'choose a number under 1/2 and that's what your life is treated as, and oh look my under 1/2 abilities proc'

[Jordon]

She sounds interesting. I have a feeling her activations are going to be quite long given how many additional actions she can generate. 

Quick question, does Spark of Revolution trigger her own Labour Contract?

[Morgan Vening]

3 minutes ago, Jordon said:

Quick question, does Spark of Revolution trigger her own Labour Contract?

Yeah, that depends on how "share" is defined. She's a friendly model with the same Keyword, but the use of "share" might mean something different in this context.

Like how you can't place in base contact with yourself.

[Jordon]

I feel like your rarely going to delve outside of M&SU with this version of Toni aside from the occasional counter pick perhaps. Fitz seems like the most obvious auto take and Amina still seems very worthwhile. I'm also glad to see a bit more incentive to hire multiple union miners now (but still probably not 3 of them).  

If your going to take Howard, then your also going to take a steamfitter (or vice versa). However I don't think either are a necessity. Same goes for gunsmiths. 

The captain seems like the least important of the M&SU but not without some merit as the Middle of the Storm might get better milage depending on the matchup. Overall though, your probably going to want to lean into cheaper models over him. 

Also worth noting that I think this version of Toni will never be taken as a second master, or look to hire a second master, but I guess we'll need to wait and see what the other alt masters look like. 

 

Another question: Would False Claim net you two summoned models? (discarding two cards of course)

[Jinn]

11 minutes ago, Jordon said:

Another question: Would False Claim net you two summoned models? (discarding two cards of course)

Yes. The ability would trigger separately on each scheme marker placed.

[Engorn]

8 hours ago, Jinn said:

I just realised that due to the summoning rules (p. 32 of the rules manual) Ironsides will need LoS to any Drudge that you summon.

"Summoned models are placed into base contact and within LoS of the model whose Action or Ability Summoned them unless the effect states otherwise."

It states otherwise for the restriction on where they're placed but not for the restriction of requiring LoS.

That's going to make it a lot harder to do work with her given how much less threatening she is; she won't be able to sit in the back if the schemes are needed in the enemy deployment zone for example. Her effectiveness will likely depend on how open the board is and how far up you can summon while in her LoS, especially given it'll take a turn for the Drudges to actually start moving due to Mindless.

I think the model that Summons the drudge is that making the Interact Action, not Ironsides, as Labor Contract says "it may discard" (in reference to the model taking the Action) instead of "this model may discard".

[Jinn]

11 minutes ago, Engorn said:

I think the model that Summons the drudge is that making the Interact Action, not Ironsides, as Labor Contract says "it may discard" (in reference to the model taking the Action) instead of "this model may discard".

It's Ironsides' ability though, and the ability is what is doing the summoning, not the Interact action. I'd much prefer it if you didn't need LoS for it though, so I hope I'm wrong or that Wyrd changes it.

[muraki]

2 hours ago, Jinn said:

2 hours ago, Engorn said:

I think the model that Summons the drudge is that making the Interact Action, not Ironsides, as Labor Contract says "it may discard" (in reference to the model taking the Action) instead of "this model may discard".

Expand  

It's Ironsides' ability though, and the ability is what is doing the summoning, not the Interact action. I'd much prefer it if you didn't need LoS for it though, so I hope I'm wrong or that Wyrd changes it.

Does this mean that dreamer can't summon at all because they summon buried? I say since it's a global ability that allows another model to summon (since it says that model not Toni) next to a scheme marker so that model takes presidence/determines the rules.

[Jinn]

7 hours ago, muraki said:

Does this mean that dreamer can't summon at all because they summon buried? I say since it's a global ability that allows another model to summon (since it says that model not Toni) next to a scheme marker so that model takes presidence/determines the rules.

That is from his Summoning upgrade, which violates the normal rules, and specific beats general. I don't think the existence of the "Summon Buried" masters which have a very specific way/reason of ignoring the base contact/LoS restrictions should mean that the general rule on it doesn't apply to models that don't have abilities/upgrades that direct you to summon out of LoS. On the other hand, normal Summoners that do require LoS but don't require base to base contact only tell you where you can summon them on the board, which is what Labor Contract tells you.

As far as I can tell if the Summoning action/ability, or another game rule, doesn't give you a different limit on summoning (by saying you can Summon 6" away, or in base contact with a scheme marker in this case) then you default to the book one. My interpretation here is that Ironsides' ability tells you where to summon but doesn't tell you anything about LoS, therefore that rule still applies.

[Engorn]

12 hours ago, Jinn said:

It's Ironsides' ability though, and the ability is what is doing the summoning, not the Interact action. I'd much prefer it if you didn't need LoS for it though, so I hope I'm wrong or that Wyrd changes it.

Take a look to Academic's mantras. It has been explained that that Ability, when it says "it", it refers to the model taking the Action, not the one that has de Ability printed on.

[Jinn]

3 hours ago, Engorn said:

Take a look to Academic's mantras. It has been explained that that Ability, when it says "it", it refers to the model taking the Action, not the one that has de Ability printed on.

The rule is that the model must be Summoned in LoS of the model whose action or ability summoned it. The ability is what's doing the summoning, not the action, and the ability definitely belongs to Ironsides.

[muraki]

Well the actual rule states:

'Summoned models are placed into base contact and within LoS of the model whose action or ability summoned them unless the effect states otherwise.'

In this case I'd say

1) Toni grants the global ability to summon to her keyword

2) the ability states where the summoned model would be summoned into (here base contact with a scheme marker) which will trump the LoS / Base contact with Toni rule.

I have difficulty using the summon into LoS unless stated otherwise rule' to say this has to be in LoS of Toni, when the full rule states 'base contact and LoS unless overruled' which is literally overruled in nearly every situation as very few summoners summon in base contact.  So I still read it as 'sure toni has the ability, but it's being used by another model + theres location rules on it, so use those instead of the core'

[Jinn]

2 minutes ago, muraki said:

Well the actual rule states:

'Summoned models are placed into base contact and within LoS of the model whose action or ability summoned them unless the effect states otherwise.'

In this case I'd say

1) Toni grants the global ability to summon to her keyword

2) the ability states where the summoned model would be summoned into (here base contact with a scheme marker) which will trump the LoS / Base contact with Toni rule.

I have difficulty using the summon into LoS unless stated otherwise rule' to say this has to be in LoS of Toni, when the full rule states 'base contact and LoS unless overruled' which is literally overruled in nearly every situation as very few summoners summon in base contact.  So I still read it as 'sure toni has the ability, but it's being used by another model + theres location rules on it, so use those instead of the core'

So do you play it that Summoners like Asami or Sandeep don't need LoS because their action states they can summon 6" away? I've never seen anyone play it that way and as far as I can tell Labor Contract is similarly stating where to summon and not mentioning LoS. As far as I am aware Summon effects that specify that you can place the model out of base contact are still bound by the LoS restriction unless they also say you can place the model out of your LoS (or another rule trumps the general rule, as is the case with the bury Summoners' upgrades.)

On the "grants the global ability" thing, I am dead certain that the ability belongs to Toni. She doesn't give it to other members of her keyword, it is simply triggered by them dropping a scheme marker. Ability is a defined term in the game that specifically refers to things written on the front of stat cards (like Unionized for example, which the Drudge actually can explicitly grant to other models), it isn't just the usual english definition of something you can do.

Whose ability is Labor Contract? Ironsides. What Summoned the Drudge? Labor Contract. Does it need LoS? Well if you don't think it does then why would Asami/Sandeep/Asura Roten or whatever else need it as they also "state otherwise" for (the b2b) part of the general Summoning rule.

I'm pretty sure I've got the correct read on the rules here but I do also wish the ability didn't require LoS, so I guess I hope I'm wrong or I hope it is changed before release.

[muraki]

1 hour ago, Jinn said:

So do you play it that Summoners like Asami or Sandeep don't need LoS because their action states they can summon 6" away?

The range on asamis summon is 6 inches. That requires line of sight because that's how 6inch ranges work. So it 'overwrites' the base contact + los core rule with 6 inches and los.

1 hour ago, Jinn said:

I'm pretty sure I've got the correct read on the rules here but I do also wish the ability didn't require LoS, so I guess I hope I'm wrong or I hope it is changed before release.

And I'm gunna stop responding cause hey, you aint changing your mind so ain't worth responding anymore.

[Jinn]

32 minutes ago, muraki said:

The range on asamis summon is 6 inches. That requires line of sight because that's how 6inch ranges work. So it 'overwrites' the base contact + los core rule with 6 inches and los.

And I'm gunna stop responding cause hey, you aint changing your mind so ain't worth responding anymore.

Targets require LoS, not ranges, see leaps for proof. As that's the case and you seem to agree that Summoners like Asami require LoS despite bypassing the base contact part of the general Summon rule I don't know what more I need to say. I think you may be the one who refuses to change their mind in this case.

[Adran]

55 minutes ago, Jinn said:

Targets require LoS, not ranges, see leaps for proof. As that's the case and you seem to agree that Summoners like Asami require LoS despite bypassing the base contact part of the general Summon rule I don't know what more I need to say. I think you may be the one who refuses to change their mind in this case.

I'm away from my files but there was something in the last faq about ranges and los. Not just target, but if you place something within range its needs los, unless you are placing yourself. 

Edit- section2 question10.  Not sure how much it applies here, but there have been one or two other rules questions that related to it ( and I don't know what was the question that leads to that faq.). 

[Jinn]

5 minutes ago, Adran said:

I'm away from my files but there was something in the last faq about ranges and los. Not just target, but if you place something within range its needs los, unless you are placing yourself. 

I'll look into that.

Edit: Found it
"10. *If a model would place an object “anywhere within range” of an Action, does it need to have LoS to that range?* a) Yes. The range of an Action includes LoS. The only exception to this is if a model is placing itself it does not need LoS."

While I'm unsure why this is an FAQ given this is definitely a new rule rather than a clarification as far as I can tell (though that isn't unusual for Wyrd), this does poke a hole in my reasoning that Asami/Sandeep prove that Summon actions must separately state they ignore the general placement and LoS restrictions. It doesn't prove the other way however, and this is kind of important for a few models.

So whether the Drudges can be summoned out of LoS of Ironsides comes down to your ruling on the general summon rule (I'll put it again for convenience):

"Summoned models are placed into base contact and within LoS of the model whose Action or Ability Summoned them unless the effect states otherwise."

So if you rule "states otherwise" to mean any statement contradicting any part of the rule nixes the rule entirely then you're good. I'd say this could use an FAQ of its own IMO, but at least you can make the argument for ignoring LoS. I'll have to see what my opponent thinks, I'm trying Union President Toni soon.

Some models this impacts (as it would allow you to Summon out of their LoS, though maybe some already are running them this way):

• Asura Roten (could come in out of LoS on any board edge)
• Carrion Emissary (Zombie on opposite side of coffin wall)
• Dashel (barely, you could summon around a corner by targeting a marker)
• Sonnia (you could summon through walls using Seeking Flames, very cool)
• Colette (barely)
• English Ivan (actually pretty big deal, could summon on the other side of large models)
• Lynch
• Probably many others.

[Peturd]

Got a game in against Dreamer today. Was really easy to keep dredges coming out, and slog things down. Went minion heavy. Her ranged attack seemed to be the way to go! But she can swing between it and out of it pretty reliably. Fitz was soooo much more useful just being around. And a drudge escorting a gunsmith made a pretty potent combo.

Felt different but in a pool of Break The Line  Wedge, they worked really well. Lots of extra interacts, walks, or concentrates as required. Took Bait and Switch and Detonate Charges. There is tons of scheme markers in a cluster it’s hard for the opponent to see everything coming or do anything to stop the obvious ones.

[dancater]

Definitely think they need to re-word or clarify Toni's summoning, this LoS issue will have a huge impact and I can see it creating problems aplenty. I can also see valid arguments in both interpretations, although I'm inclined to agree with Jinn simply because otherwise the ability seems very, very powerful, and its already pretty good, I'm guessing Jinn is correct on a nebulous as the "play-testers assumed the rule read and played", which is always the issue when testing what you wrote and so you KNOW what it means and always read it that way. 

Nevertheless as Murkai points out, as you read the card, if you interpret the language the model drops a scheme marker and then "it", not Toni per se, discards a card, that would indicate that the model which dropped the scheme marker discards the card and then summons a Drudge. This seems to support that the model (as the it) needs LoS, but Toni does not, she grants the ability (after a friendly model that shares the keyword) but does not necessarily perform the summon (although of course as a friendly keyword model she can).

Still I suspect the intent is as Jinn describes, this needs to be clarified, hopefully Wyrd is using these reveals as a stage in the troubleshoot powers and wording stage before finalising the release. Hopefully.

1 hour ago, Peturd said:

Got a game in against Dreamer today. Was really easy to keep dredges coming out, and slog things down. Went minion heavy. Her ranged attack seemed to be the way to go! But she can swing between it and out of it pretty reliably. Fitz was soooo much more useful just being around. And a drudge escorting a gunsmith made a pretty potent combo.

Felt different but in a pool of Break The Line  Wedge, they worked really well. Lots of extra interacts, walks, or concentrates as required. Took Bait and Switch and Detonate Charges. There is tons of scheme markers in a cluster it’s hard for the opponent to see everything coming or do anything to stop the obvious ones.

Which Dreamer did you face mate. Was it summons vs summons? Did Dreamer benefit at all with the Drudge's low WP, for example you team a Drudge with a Gunsmith would seem to make the Drudge a target to summon off and almost immediately engage said Gunsmith.

I do note that the Drudge is a Minion (3) so that caps the number you can have. Did you find they rotated a fair amount, summon - die - resummon, or did you hit the cap and your opponent try to ignore them? 

Was your early strategy to get all 3 out in turn 1, or latest turn 2, then resummon as casualties required or was it a more opportunistic, I'm placing a scheme marker and have a card so.......

Also given the discussion were/did you play that Toni needed LoS to any summons? Was this an issue in the game at all? Or did it simply not come up.

I imagine if you zerg the initial summons aiming to get everyone out turn 1/2, given that Toni and crew slants towards bubbling, it would not be a huge chore to summon every Drudge in LoS of Toni. But mid-game as the chaos ensues then obviously that is a huge potential difference maker.

 

I'm loving the concept, she does seem both very different and at the same time still highly thematic, just emphasising a different angle on the theme. I am a bit sad that the poor Captain still looks like he struggles to find a master which loves him, but then again we still have seven master variants to be released/revealed and that offers so much glorious scope looking at the reveals already made.

  

[Peturd]

Should have clarified, was against insomniac dreamer. Summon dreamer would have been a bigger issue with drudges for sure. As is, you want to waste ap on killing them, all the power to you. They’ll be back. And the heal pulse is nice.

And yeah, Zerg rush out 3 turn one. Toni’s card draw was good by turn 3 if more were needed. Took two miners, a steam fitter, Howard, Fitz, and the gunslinger. Coppelius almost got the gunslinger, down to 1. But the drudge pulsed back up to 2 twice before she finally got killed. Drudge can walk then gunslinger bonus push to him. So got to double shoot a lot.

I saw all this debate so tried to keep Toni line of site until people settle on a bit more of a consensus.

New Dreamer was meh.

[Jinn]

Here's the list I'm bringing against Insomniac soon:

• UP Ironsides
• Mouse
• Amina Naidu
• Fitzsimmons
• Langston (mainly for Vent Steam/the upgrade, as I want Dreamer to have to work to summon Chompy)
  • Diesel Engine
• Gunsmith
• Union Miner
  • Magical Training

Probably going to have Toni give Langston and the Gunsmith a Focused on turn 1 while Amina spams Walk the Line for card draw and movement (and maybe fast with the trigger.)

Not an optimised list, mainly trying to see how the different models play with the new title. I expect that Steam Arachnid Swarms will eventually find a place in my UP Ironsides lists.