Outcasts GG2 Errata

[Azahul]

I've run both. It lets Jake benefit from the Stalker's mobility on his respawn. They make a good scoring pair.

[Adran]

9 hours ago, RisingPhoenix said:

Yep, messed up stealth and disguise in my head.  Honestly only taken it a handful of times to escape tarpits.

Make a mistake on an internet forum and the usual etc.

Please don't view corrections of written work as a bad thing.

People generally correct you to help you (in case you are wrong and didn't know it) and to help people that read your work (so they don't get the wrong idea). In this case it wasn't even worded as a correction, but a question into why you thought disguised helped against Gunlines. 

It might be worth editing the Wanted criminal section, since gunlines are probably how you handle a wanted Criminal Ronin... (or, at least they are less effected by the Disguised), but its up to you. 

[RisingPhoenix]

On 9/20/2021 at 12:46 AM, Jafar said:

Agree on Levi, same story as M2E. Master is build around reborn, high dmg and self dmg. After few games it's changed without giving too much new unique things. Moreover at the same time new Jedza will have even better dmg track that cannot be reduced

OK, WYRD can take nerf things, but please make Levi interesting and unique with something new. 

It's weird (wyrd) because if you go back to 1E, Leveticus wasn't really intended a damage monster.  Yes, he did great damage, but he was very much more based around the idea of being a sacrificial piece and summoning.  His melee damage just happened to be 0/1/12 because... look 1E was weird alright?  But the entire game was based around killing and rebirthing him.  You didn't draw cards at the start of the turn, you drew a new hand of 6 when he died.  He could spawn more Hollow Waifs (and could have up to 3).  His attacks spawned aboms.  Sure, what happened was people saw 0/1/12 and conspired to get him to flip severe and delete masters, but that doesn't feel like his 1E design intent.  He was a sacrifice/rebirth engine that could spawn new units and draw you cards and yeah happened to do great damage.

2E they decided that the unique part of his kit was damage.  Which... why?  We had Von Schill, he could make a good gunline.  Now we have Parker and Von Schill for gunlines.  But hey, Leveticus has to be MAXIMUM DAMAGE.  Then he did MAXIMUM DAMAGE and they didn't like that and nerfed him.  Then later, belatedly, they added some upgrades to give him back respawns and stuff.  

3E they just did a 2E.  It's like, we have Von Schill and Parker for gunlines, and Viks for MAXIMUM DAMAGE crews, but we need this? Well no, and I think all four crews have now suffered for it.  

-----------------------------

Leveticus could have seen design as a reincarnating/summoning crew that spawns corpses and scrap and turns them into aboms to form desolation engines.  Using the idea of kind of an eternal cycle, with Ashes and Dust reforming, Leveticus reforming, the Desolation Engines reforming.  It's balanced because this is a five round game not an infinite one - but he could be constantly gaining and losing his peripheral pieces.  Instead they gave him scavengers, which provide scrap to make more aboms... nope wait, they buff so you can gunline better and have a decent gun.  

They just leaned into everything that didn't make him unique, and now that he's not unique he needs to be hit  with the nerf bat because his mess of a design is sitting in too many niches.  I don't know how they fix this - I've seen their attempt with new Levi and my thought is "not very well".  There's a fundamental design mistake they've made here and I don't know if they can fix it.  Short of flat redesigning Levi which might make people pretty mad.

 

Also can I just say how cautious they've been about Dreamer/Sandeep/Collette/Von Schill nerfs versus Levi who just seemed to get the nerf bat to the face at the start and it kept swinging?  Especially given the only pieces untouched in his crew are Abominations and the Desolation Engine, which are considered by most players to be fucking unplayable for obvious reasons.  

[touchdown]

Levi had a niche, which was "defensive tech doesn't work against me", but then they gave amalgam the best the minions, and the best flanker model, and one of the best guns in the game, and the total package was just way too good. Now, I'm not sure what Levi 1 is supposed to do. Freikorps seems better in almost any situation you'd bring Amalgam into.

Oh well, at least we have rider Levi now

[Adran]

I must admit my memory of M1 Leviticus is the hiring, rebirth cycle and the crazy damage of 1/2 wounds+1 from 12" ignoring most defences.  No one I remember used the severe 12, because that was the least efficient way for him to kill most things. Every thing he did ( apart from his melee) was fixed damage amounts and he could delete anything in the game in 1 turn and turn it into an abomination or a waif. 

The two previous editions both tried to work on the rebirth cycle, and Leviticus was the most errata'd model in each edition. He was also pulled from a book because they hadn't got him to work and given an extra year of testingt. I'm pretty sure there are more version of Levi on the cutting room floor than any other model they have made. 

[touchdown]

that's some neat malifaux history @Adran

[Morgan Vening]

5 hours ago, Adran said:

I must admit my memory of M1 Leveticus is the hiring, rebirth cycle and the crazy damage of 1/2 wounds+1 from 12" ignoring most defences.  No one I remember used the severe 12, because that was the least efficient way for him to kill most things. Every thing he did ( apart from his melee) was fixed damage amounts and he could delete anything in the game in 1 turn and turn it into an abomination or a waif. 

The two previous editions both tried to work on the rebirth cycle, and Leveticus was the most errata'd model in each edition. He was also pulled from a book because they hadn't got him to work and given an extra year of testingt. I'm pretty sure there are more version of Levi on the cutting room floor than any other model they have made. 

I got that off once, in the most pointless fashion ever.

Was fighting Viks, and a Taelor with 1w was engaging him, and I needed to kill her so that I could Unnnatural Wasting a Vik and she was also engaging Alyce (3" engagement on a Relic Hammer = noice!), and disengaging was pointless (stat 7 vs Df2 = not good).

So I took the attack, knowing that I could easily get a straight flip with Face of Death, and I had a crap moderate in hand. Hit, and discarded two weaks to put me on a straight. Flipped the Red Joker, 13 damage to a 1w model. Giblets everywhere.

Then I Black Jokered the first attack on the Vik, opponent cheated a RJ to make the second one miss, and then Sistered in Spirit to push her out of line of sight of Alyce (who needed to Rapid Fire to kill it after those misses), which also put her in position to score the VP necessary to win, and my game essentially went into the toilet.

First of many games pissed away due to "bad things happening". Though I hardly need bad luck to piss away a game, that was definitely one of them. But that narrative concept is what I play the game for.

[Adran]

5 hours ago, Morgan Vening said:

So I took the attack, knowing that I could easily get a straight flip with Face of Death, and I had a crap moderate in hand. Hit, and discarded two weaks to put me on a straight. Flipped the Red Joker, 13 damage to a 1w model. Giblets everywhere.

Could have been worse, back then red joker was severe + an extra damage flip so you could be doing 24 damage to her...

10 hours ago, touchdown said:

that's some neat malifaux history @Adran

I'm old and spend too much time here. (I also did check on one version of his 1st ed rules to check I had it right, although the easiest to hand was the initial one, so it was probably his most broken.) 1st Ed Leviticus was a truely crazy model that made you play a completely different game to everyone else, but if you could work him out it was a hugely lethal gun turret that was hard to stop because even if you engaged to try and deny the shooting, he could probably just hit you for severe 12, or he could use his free walk to walk away. (or at least that was how I saw him used most commonly)

[Jafar]

It's nice that we have this chat here about Levi, but probably to change him we should spam every topic about this and be very annoying to WYRD. 

We can like one Ancient Rome senator-  "Cato the Elder"  end each answer in forum with "Furthermore, I consider that Leveticus must be buffed"

EDIT: If someone is interested in history lesson  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carthago_delenda_est

[trikk]

46 minutes ago, Jafar said:

It's nice that we have this chat here about Levi, but probably to change him we should spam every topic about this and be very annoying to WYRD. 

We can like one Ancient Rome senator-  "Cato the Elder"  end each answer in forum with "Furthermore, I consider that Leveticus must be buffed"

EDIT: If someone is interested in history lesson  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carthago_delenda_est

Leveticus is very good and his errata made him come out stronger. Why would he need buffs?

[Jafar]

16 minutes ago, trikk said:

Leveticus is very good and his errata made him come out stronger. Why would he need buffs?

How it made him stronger? This is not a troll question, for me it's like nerf. Screen from official wyrd Errata file: 

[trikk]

8 minutes ago, Jafar said:

How it made him stronger? This is not a troll question, for me it's like nerf. Screen from official wyrd Errata file: 

Stat 6 on melee and Scavenger change made him very strong in melee. 

[Jafar]

21 minutes ago, trikk said:

Stat 6 on melee and Scavenger change made him very strong in melee. 

I agree that after change Scavenger is better model - 100% with you on that. 

But when I compare what they took from Levi (1 x , instead 3 times, resurrection with less health + conditions still on model, lower range on Ruinous repairs) I think +1 stat on  is not enough. I know it's difficult to compare two things in vacuum and other models / keywords interactions are important. But at least for me, If I would have to choose between 3 x (also to dmg) that can be used on any action or +1 stat on 1 action, I would select .

I know this may sound strange, but for me they gave Levi some unique (maybe too strong) toys and bashed them to be very generic. It was very similar in M2E, he was nerfed with similar approach. For me it's very bad nerf, because it kills key part of master. 

I hoped for a nice new things in Levi2, of course Horsemans are great and very fluffy but at the same time they couldn't find better use for totems. 

That nerf and less usefully totems in Levi2 made me salty. I really hoped that if something is wrong they will take Youko approach and redesign cards, not only do cuts/increases here and there. I think that this discussion won't trigger any change in next errata's, but at least I (and few other folks) could steam off. It's really hard when you stick with master for 2 editions and he is getting errata in both. 




 

[trikk]

The stat 6 in melee is a HUGE buff. Makes locking him in melee a lot riskier.
The rest are nerfs but the Demise heal and Ruinous repairs aren't that big of a deal.
The channel was indeed nerfed but that was equalized by Scavenger buff. 

 

Even if we consider this a nerf, he is still a very strong master with decent/strong keyword so I really don't see why he should be buffed.

 

If that helps you, I was saying that M3E channel is stupid and will backfire like M2E channel during beta🤷‍♂️

 

Youko changes were done because flat stat increase/removing limitations wouldn't help her and I still think she's bad.

[Jafar]

22 minutes ago, trikk said:

If that helps you, I was saying that M3E channel is stupid and will backfire like M2E channel during beta🤷‍♂️

 

It helps  
uffff, this small chat really helped to steam off, I am interested in other opinions as well. 

Out of curiosity, what do you think about Totems in Levi2, could there be a better way to use them? 

[trikk]

20 minutes ago, Jafar said:

It helps  
uffff, this small chat really helped to steam off, I am interested in other opinions as well. 

Out of curiosity, what do you think about Totems in Levi2, could there be a better way to use them? 

You can give 3-5 injured with Pale Rider and shoot the target with Waifs or kill them for cards

[Morgan Vening]

22 minutes ago, Jafar said:

Out of curiosity, what do you think about Totems in Levi2, could there be a better way to use them? 

Keep moderately close to Levi and/or Pale Rider, and if you can rack up Injured 2-3 and halve the wounds on something, a Waif can really punish it.

Worst case, you just run it into the enemy, and make them expend resources dealing with it. 5W isn't much for an enemy to obliterate if it's something valuable like a support piece. It's way more than they want to spend on something that isn't. And if you can get something to waste an action or two knocking it down to 1-2 health, and then have Levi eat it for two cards, well, that's just gravy. Just make sure that you're not moving them up into a charge range, where it's essentially a free part of their movement. Doesn't work for Run and Gun models, for obvious reasons.

EDIT: Or, what @trikk said, in way less words.