Coryphee Duet, Soulstone Miner, Damage Prevention

[Molly]

I've been playing little lately, and always in two people;
Not having a community, it is often difficult to remember everything, i found something here on forum, but still many thing are not clear to me, i also decided to use models that i didn't know before... so i apologize for the questions that may seems trivial for you:

- How does Coryphee Duet works with new replace rules? I understand that Duet can do more activations, but how? If so, can Duet do all these activations in a row?
Can single Coryphees also do multiple activation?

- How should soulstone miners be used correctly? I guess it is not possible to unearth and leave a marker in the same turn, right? afterall are always bonus action, or no?

- when i prevent the damage of some attacks, down to reduce it to 0 damage; it can happen in some cases that other effects of the attack are applied? How do i recognize these attacks?

sorry again for my confusion 😕 and many thanks! 

[Ogid]

No worries, we are happy to help.

46 minutes ago, Molly said:

- How does Coryphee Duet works with new replace rules? I understand that Duet can do more activations, but how? If so, can Duet do all these activations in a row?
Can single Coryphees also do multiple activation?

Without entering in conditions or Rider's extra activations, the main idea of that ability hasn't changed:

• Duet replaces and generates 2 models: 1 inactivated and 1 that keep playing the current activation as if nothing had happened (the other player gets to activate a model after that model ends its activation as always).
• Coryphee may target another  Coryphee and get replaced by a Duet that will keep playing the current activation as if nothing had happened; you'll be usually interested in targeting an activated Coryphee because if you don't you'll be losing 1 activation.

Extra details:

• When splitting you may choose 1 model that will get all the conditions and scheme targetings (step 3 and 4, may be different models), when joining all conditions will be pooled (Focused +1 and Focused +2 will become Focused+3).
• When using the Rider to give the duet an extra activation, the other model generates if it splits will be activated (point 7 of replace rules).

The duet is usually played like this: Duet activates, performs its 2 actions, replaces; (the other player activate 1 model if he can), the unactivated coryphee activates, replaces into a duet and performs another 2 actions. There are more tricks, but the 101 is that. 

You might do those 2 activations in a row, but only if you let your oponent go first (or going first you managed to kill an unactivated model during the turn) and activate the duet last (in this case the other player will still get the chance of activating a model, but all his models will be already activated). All of this is suposing he don't have any way to gain activation control in any way, like generating pass tokens or letting models activate twice (like Tara or Molly for example)

46 minutes ago, Molly said:

- How should soulstone miners be used correctly? I guess it is not possible to unearth and leave a marker in the same turn, right? afterall are always bonus action, or no?

They cannot unbury and interact, they need 2 turns for that. But they are generating a lot of SS, so they almost pay for themselves at the end of the game and can even kill some cheap enemy model if they are leave unatended.

Without entering in fancy stuff, they are usually played like this:

• Turn 1: Get SS, Concentrate, Bury,
• Turn 2: Get SS, Unbury, move
• Turn 3: Get SS, Interact, move
• Turn 4 and 5: Repeat turn 3

46 minutes ago, Molly said:

- when i prevent the damage of some attacks, down to reduce it to 0 damage; it can happen in some cases that other effects of the attack are applied? How do i recognize these attacks?

All other effects (and triggers) will be applied unless it's explicitly stated that the effect is linked to the damage (See Kaeris's Conflagration as an example)

Hope it helps!

[Ogid]

np 

28 minutes ago, Molly said:

So, it is possible that Duet does for example: walk (nimble) - walk - charge -dance apart;  so the single coryphee not atctivated yet, use "dance togheter" to reform the duet that will have the two action of the coryphee? if, so will the Duet also have access to bonus action again?

The replace rules are tricky at first; I recommend you to take the models and go over them a few times, you'll see it more clear. But about your questions, yes to the first one, no to the second one.

The single coryphee will use the bonus action to reform the duet, the duet keeps playing the activation as it were the original model; that means that model has already used its bonus action (and any normal action the Coryphee used).

It's the reverse case than the duet activation: In that one the duet will usually expend its 2 actions (because it has better stats, abilities and triggers; and it let both Coryphees end near enough to dance together) and then it uses the bonus action at the end of the activation to replace into 2 Coryphees, one of them keep playing but as the duet already used both actions and the bonus action, the activation ends. Nothing stops the duet for using the bonus action at the start or in the middle of the activation; but that will usually result in both Coryphees ending too far away for reforming the duet (but sometimes you could want to do that if you need to score in 2 points at once for example).

Here it seems complicated, but go over them with the rules and you'll see i'ts actually quite straightforward.

33 minutes ago, Molly said:

Will Duet be able to do these activations in a row before his opponent activated?

No, neither the replace rules nor any special rule of the coryphee allows chain activating it; your oponent will always have the oportunity to activate one model between both activations. You may "hack" this a bit by making him activate all his models before you activate the duet tho.

36 minutes ago, Molly said:

precisely, "kaeris conflagration" if the target suffer 2 damage and use a stone and prevent 2 damage, target don't take also burning?

In this particular case, no burning because it is stated "models damaged by this action"

For comparison; if you look the Firestarter "Flaming Fury", there the target will get Burning+1 even if all the damage is prevented (however preventing all the damage will prevent Burning from the trigger because again it's explicitly stated)

[Molly]

Thank you @Ogid!

So, it is possible that Duet does for example: walk (nimble) - walk - charge -dance apart;  so the single coryphee not atctivated yet, use "dance togheter" to reform the duet that will have the two action of the coryphee? if, so will the Duet also have access to bonus action again? Will Duet be able to do these activations in a row before his opponent activated?


precisely, "kaeris conflagration" if the target suffer 2 damage and use a stone and prevent 2 damage, target don't take also burning?

[dannydb]

so you can only do one free action a turn so you can't nimble walk and dance apart in same activation

[Molly]

7 minutes ago, dannydb said:

so you can only do one free action a turn so you can't nimble walk and dance apart in same activation

 

sorry you're right.

 

[Maladroit]

6 hours ago, Molly said:

 
- How should soulstone miners be used correctly? I guess it is not possible to unearth and leave a marker in the same turn, right? afterall are always bonus action, or no?

Correct, unless they can activate a second time in the same turn, for example using the mech rider.

[Maniacal_cackle]

EDIT: Wrong

Another note about the miners is they are not forced to unbury, so you can potentially follow this pattern:

• Bury turn 1
• Unbury turn 2, score catch and release
• Bury turn 3
• Stay buried turn 4
• Unbury last activation of turn 5.

Can do something similar for hidden martyrs, but could potentially stay buried between turns 1 and 5 (that is a bit obvious that you're trying for hidden martyrs at that point). But useful to know the rules allow staying buried over multiple turns!

[Molly]

thanks to all of the very useful answers.
it all seems very complicated... 😂

anyway: i don't know if I haven't read it myself, but it seems to me that on the rulebook, I can't find anything that confirms that when I split the duet, one coryphee is as if it were not activated. 😕 Indeed luckily I had read it here on the forum.

some other doubt: if in the beginning of the game (i'm arcanist player and i chose Vendetta on one Coryphee) i choose to transform duo in a Duet; can i score Vendetta  with the Duet vs a 6ss enemy model?

if my opponent choose for example "take prisoner" on one of mine coryphee or a duet, and i later transform them; am I deciding which coryphee is valid for take prisoner? Do I have to warn my opponent, that if he has "take prisoner" the new target would be coryphee x, when do I split them? i hope you understand how i asked the question. thanks again.

[dannydb]

2 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Another note about the miners is they are not forced to unbury, so you can potentially follow this pattern:

• Bury turn 1
• Unbury turn 2, score catch and release
• Bury turn 3
• Stay buried turn 4
• Unbury last activation of turn 5.

Can do something similar for hidden martyrs, but could potentially stay buried between turns 1 and 5 (that is a bit obvious that you're trying for hidden martyrs at that point). But useful to know the rules allow staying buried over multiple turns!

When they unbury they are ignored for stats and schemes so you can't score off them the turn they unbury 

[Maniacal_cackle]

1 minute ago, dannydb said:

When they unbury they are ignored for stats and schemes so you can't score off them the turn they unbury 

Oh right, so this doesn't quite work. I am used to doing it with the Resser models that are allowed to do it. Sorry for the misinformation!

[Maladroit]

On 10/26/2020 at 9:00 AM, dannydb said:

When they unbury they are ignored for stats and schemes so you can't score off them the turn they unbury 

Probably worth pointing out that they are ignored for friendly schemes and strats, your opponent can still use them to score theirs. I made that mistake the first time I played after the errata.

Also same as interact actions, if you can reactivate them then they can count on the turn they unbury.

[touchdown]

Well now I have a question. If you have hidden Martyrs on a Soul Stone Miner and another model, you unbury the miner and your opponent kills both models. Do you score the first point because the miner doesn't count for your scheme and thus your opponent killed exactly one of the models?

[santaclaws01]

7 hours ago, touchdown said:

Well now I have a question. If you have hidden Martyrs on a Soul Stone Miner and another model, you unbury the miner and your opponent kills both models. Do you score the first point because the miner doesn't count for your scheme and thus your opponent killed exactly one of the models?

Only one of the models was killed that turn, so yes. This would also hold true if the soulstone miner was killed that turn as it's being ignored at the time of death.

[Rufess]

2 hours ago, santaclaws01 said:

Only one of the models was killed that turn, so yes. This would also hold true if the soulstone miner was killed that turn as it's being ignored at the time of death.

I doubt that the continuous effect would affect a model even after it was killed and removed from the game.

[Maniacal_cackle]

41 minutes ago, Rufess said:

I doubt that the continuous effect would affect a model even after it was killed and removed from the game.

That's an interesting point. Are there continuous effects that persist past death?

I've heard it claimed that leader only passives (like Kaeris pyres giving injured) persist past death, but that is the only one I know of (and don't even know if it is true).

[santaclaws01]

1 hour ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

That's an interesting point. Are there continuous effects that persist past death?

I've heard it claimed that leader only passives (like Kaeris pyres giving injured) persist past death, but that is the only one I know of (and don't even know if it is true).

There are abilities that work without the model being in play. Ikiryo is a prime example. But it's a moot point anyways, because the model was being ignored at the time it was killed, so as far as the scheme is concerned the model wasn't killed, it's just no longer in play.

[Ogid]

I'd like to see special cases like this one spelled out tbh; schemes and strategy are clear until special rules get in the way. Even a semingly easy case like this one has room to argue.

But there are others like 2 targets becoming one (for Hidden Martyrs) where it comes down to semantics or significant models becoming insignificant become sometimes harder to know what to do (what to do if they are the target of an scheme?). And in others like Corrupted Leylines an strictly RAW reading will discard the Lodestone, which seems far from intended.

On 10/25/2020 at 9:06 PM, Molly said:

anyway: i don't know if I haven't read it myself, but it seems to me that on the rulebook, I can't find anything that confirms that when I split the duet, one coryphee is as if it were not activated. 😕 Indeed luckily I had read it here on the forum.

some other doubt: if in the beginning of the game (i'm arcanist player and i chose Vendetta on one Coryphee) i choose to transform duo in a Duet; can i score Vendetta  with the Duet vs a 6ss enemy model?

if my opponent choose for example "take prisoner" on one of mine coryphee or a duet, and i later transform them; am I deciding which coryphee is valid for take prisoner? Do I have to warn my opponent, that if he has "take prisoner" the new target would be coryphee x, when do I split them? i hope you understand how i asked the question. thanks again.

Don't worry, rules take time.

But that's the reason I told you before it'd be good to take the rulebook and go through the replace mechanic; all your questions are answered there (make sure to have the errated version or consult the errata)

• Step 7 tells you when one of the models is considered inactivated: Basically if the model hasn't been activated when it splits (a.k.a reached the end of its activation or step C3 of the detailed timing), including if it splits during its activation.
• Step 4 answer your Vendetta and take prisioner question: Yes, the duet keep being the target of any scheme; both friendly and enemy (in vendetta the cost restriction is when selecting the models, not when doing the damage/ getting the kill). You have to anounce it even when you don't have any scheme, maybe your oponent does. Just in case; you have to anounce it is the target of all lasting effect, not that you choosed X scheme with him as a target nor you can ask the other player if he choosed X scheme.

Hope it helps!