Coryphee duet unable to heal?

[Maniacal_cackle]

If a Coryphe Duet is targeted by a Goryo's 'can't heal until the end phase', and then its demise happens (replace and heal the new models), what happens?

I assume the new models survive?

• Step 2 of replacing is the one that sorts out the healing.
• Step 4 is the one that transfers over lasting game effects.

So the heal occurs in the gap in time between the duet dying and the effect being transferred to the new manequins? No further healing for one of the manequins though?

[Adran]

That appears to be correct. 

[Maniacal_cackle]

Followup question:

If a Coryphee duet is killed, and splits into two mannequins, while holding two intel tokens... It drops the intel tokens before the replace, right?

• Dropping intel tokens happens when reduced to 1 health
• So it happens at step 5, before resolving the kill?
• Then you move to step 6 and resolve the kill (aka the replace)?

[Adran]

Yes, it looks like the tokens will be dropped in step 5 (things that happen on a certain health) of the detailed timing, where as the killed/demise etc all happens in step 6. 

[Maniacal_cackle]

Next question: hidden martyrs.

If a coryphee duet forms out of two coryphee that were hidden martyrs...

Killing it will transfer both properties onto a single mannequin, and killing that mannequin will give a hidden martyrs point, correct? While also denying the final point?

Man I see why multi-model replaces get so many questions xD

[Mycellanious]

1 hour ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Next question: hidden martyrs.

If a coryphee duet forms out of two coryphee that were hidden martyrs...

Killing it will transfer both properties onto a single mannequin, and killing that mannequin will give a hidden martyrs point, correct? While also denying the final point?

Man I see why multi-model replaces get so many questions xD

Why would it score the first point? The other model isnt alive. If Model A is counted as both model A and B and dies, then neither A nor B are alive and both A and B are dead. You would get no points for the scheme. 

 

 

[Maniacal_cackle]

25 minutes ago, Mycellanious said:

Why would it score the first point? The other model isnt alive. If Model A is counted as both model A and B and dies, then neither A nor B are alive and both A and B are dead. You would get no points for the scheme. 

 

 

The first point doesn't require that the other one lives:

Quote

At the end of the turn, if exactly one of the chosen models was killed...

The mannequin is exactly one model, so killing it should give them the point?

[Mycellanious]

20 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

The first point doesn't require that the other one lives:

The mannequin is exactly one model, so killing it should give them the point?

There is a difference between "exactly one model" and "exactly one of the chosen models." The Maniquinn would count as BOTH of the chosen models for the purposes of the scheme. 

[Rufess]

52 minutes ago, Mycellanious said:

There is a difference between "exactly one model" and "exactly one of the chosen models." The Maniquinn would count as BOTH of the chosen models for the purposes of the scheme. 

The chosen models are now Maniquinn A and Maniquinn A, which to me means only one chosen model. Hence Maniquinn A is exactly one of the chosen model imo.

[santaclaws01]

1 hour ago, Rufess said:

The chosen models are now Maniquinn A and Maniquinn A, which to me means only one chosen model. Hence Maniquinn A is exactly one of the chosen model imo.

There are two chosen models for the scheme. Both chosen models were killed.

[Maniacal_cackle]

I guess it comes down to semantics a bit.

I think if my opponent wants to score it, I'd let them. After all, if they combine two martyr coryphees, they're already limiting themselves to one point max if you interpret it generously. So it is already a pretty harsh rules outcome for them anyway.

[Maniacal_cackle]

Additional question: coryphee duet activations & health...

If you get a Coryphee Duet down to 4 health, and then it splits...

• You get two Coryphees, both at 4 health.
• One Coryphee continues the current activation. The other one counts as unactivated.
• In the next activation, the unactivated Coryphee can dance together.
• Coryphee Duet is now at 8 health?

[Scoffer]

53 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Additional question: coryphee duet activations & health...

If you get a Coryphee Duet down to 4 health, and then it splits...

• You get two Coryphees, both at 4 health.
• One Coryphee continues the current activation. The other one counts as unactivated.
• In the next activation, the unactivated Coryphee can dance together.
• Coryphee Duet is now at 8 health?

The duet has to pay half of it's remaining health to Dance Apart. So both Coryphees will have only 2 health and the new Duet will have 4 again.

 

[Maniacal_cackle]

Just now, Scoffer said:

The duet has to suffer half of it's remaining health to Dance Apart. So both Coryphees will have only 2 health and the new Duet will have 4 again.

 

Haha, I knew I must have been missing something. Thanks!

[Scoffer]

Also keep in mind, that damage is rounded up: if the Duet has 9 health, it will suffer 5 damage and Coryphees will have only 4 health each.

[Maniacal_cackle]

4 minutes ago, Scoffer said:

Also keep in mind, that damage is rounded up: if the Duet has 9 health, it will suffer 5 damage and Coryphees will have only 4 health each.

Oh I had assumed all numbers rounded down, but that's probably a carryover from another game.

[Scoffer]

7 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Oh I had assumed all numbers rounded down, but that's probably a carryover from another game.

Quite the opposite: all numbers are rounded up ("Math" section, p.31). Most exceptions from this rule are concerning terrain hight and falling damage.

[Maniacal_cackle]

1 minute ago, Scoffer said:

Quite the opposite: all numbers are rounded up ("Math" section, p.31). Most exceptions from this rule are concerning terrain hight and falling damage.

Oh dear, looks like I've been doing height one fences wrong all this time!

Thanks

[diki]

Isn't Mark of vengeance a lasting game effect? and therefore applied to the new models?

Quote

4. If the new and original models belong to the same Crew, one new model becomes the target of any effects that targeted or chose any original models, such as Schemes, Leader designation, or lasting game effects. That new model is always considered a legal target for those effects.

 

Edited September 16, 2020 by diki
I'm wrong! again :(

[Maniacal_cackle]

Just now, diki said:

Isn't Mark of vengeance a lasting game effect? and therefore applied to the new models?

 

It does indeed!

However, the heal from replace happens at step 2, and the transfer of the anti-heal happens at step 4. So it should be:

• Model dies
• Replace starts happening
• New models placed onto table
• New models heal
• Anti-heal transfers to one of the mannequins (but it has already gotten its demise heal).

[Adran]

1 minute ago, diki said:

Isn't Mark of vengeance a lasting game effect? and therefore applied to the new models?

 

Yes it is. It will be applied to the new models. But, if you look at the replace rules, then the first healing is done before effects are moved across. 

[diki]

The paragraph does say "That new model is always considered a legal target for those effects.", some one could interpret that as including 2 steps before 🤷‍♂️

[Maniacal_cackle]

Just now, diki said:

The paragraph does say "That new model is always considered a legal target for those effects.", some one could interpret that as including 2 steps before 🤷‍♂️

I think the idea is that it is to solve things like 'minion only' effects transferring between models during replaces and similar.

[solkan]

10 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

I think the idea is that it is to solve things like 'minion only' effects transferring between models during replaces and similar.

Yes, exactly that.  Unauthorized time travel is expressly forbidden.  🤕

The order of steps is:

• 2.  Set the health of the new models and (if applicable) heal them.
• 4.  Pick a new model to become the target of anything targeting, choosing, etc. the original models.
• 5.  Remove the original models without triggering "killed" effects if they're on the same crew.
• 6.  If the new models are at 0 Health, kill them.

Which means that, yeah, the beta testers missed the case of "the target model has a 'cannot heal' effect on itself specifically, not an area of effect 'cannot heal'" edge case in the sequence.  That is, assuming that it's not a deliberate quirk of the Replace rules.  😕

 

[Trimasel]

On 9/16/2020 at 8:16 AM, Scoffer said:

The duet has to pay half of it's remaining health to Dance Apart. So both Coryphees will have only 2 health and the new Duet will have 4 again.

Need some note, that with Hoffman heal trigger Temper Steal, split & dance together can heal Duet. Due to Hofman trigger allow armor reduce irreducible damage from split. 

For example Duet have 4w, with split you would get two Coryphees with each 3w (4/2dmg - armor =min 1 dmg) .

In case of Duet have 6w+, with this combo Duet would be full. Due to 6w-(6/2-armor)= 5w before replace.