English Ivan (Umbra/DUA Keywords) Discussion

[Whut]

On 1/13/2021 at 2:36 PM, ShinChan said:

I just realized that you can sit Ivan in concealing terrain and attacking from 10" away with stat 6 and a built-in , which automatically gives him a damage track of 3/4/5 (the model he attacks will always have concealment), while attacking him will become an uphill battle since he will have Concealment.

Add to that the possibility of a 8ss summon with little investment... He's going right to the top 3 of masters no doubts

Welcome to the party, Shin!

[Maniacal_cackle]

Just had my first game against English Ivan, what an awesome crew! There's been tons of talk on his strengths so I won't cover that, but some weaknesses that stand out (maybe OOKs & versatiles can fix?) in round 3 of the tournament.

• The crew is a bit weak to enemy crews that avoid his attacks.
  • I spent most of the game hiding behind forests so he couldn't see me. If he had come forward to attack me, I would have reaped him with Dead Rider and killed Ivan.
  • My crew was built so that he could only summon Brockens off Molly or Dead Rider, and Dead Rider avoided hits all game.
• He is really vulnerable to strong hands. If people save high cards to cheat against him, can really make him work to land his hits.
• The crew is really focused on Ivan - if you can negate him, the crew's effectiveness drops significantly.
• Brocken Spectres are a bit squishy and can be single activationed - so you can put in loads of work and then have it all negated. Particularly brutal as we played public enemies.
• The crew is super soulstone heavy, and they drain super fast, which means all those henchmen become really easy to kill once the stones start to run low.
• Removing his markers isn't that strong, but it is also a minor hindrance. And in Molly's case, it meant I was often drawing free cards off him.

Overall, it seems like Ivan needs a scheme pool to force your opponent to cross the centreline so he can kill you as you do so. I'm not sure he is very effective against turtle strategies - particularly as half his crew is slow, so Ivan can't afford to abandon his crew and go solo the enemy.

Also, I didn't realise how good Hallowed Glory is. It is just as scary as the main attack (if not more scary).

[Adran]

Thanks for that.

Ivan is one of those models that looks huge, and can run right over an enemy crew if you don't know what he does, but if you build your crew to face him you can neuter a lot of the scary stuff. 

I think that he will get strong results to start with, but as people start learning how to face him, he will head back into the pack as a good but not overpowered crew. 

[ShinChan]

1 hour ago, Adran said:

Thanks for that.

Ivan is one of those models that looks huge, and can run right over an enemy crew if you don't know what he does, but if you build your crew to face him you can neuter a lot of the scary stuff. 

I think that he will get strong results to start with, but as people start learning how to face him, he will head back into the pack as a good but not overpowered crew. 

6 games were played with Ivan in the January's event so far (out of 8 possible).

4 Wins, 1 draw and 1 lost. The player that lost, hasn't won a game yet.

The only draw was against a Sandeep, another summoner, but with way more card draw than Ivan.

Knowing what Ivan does, doesn't stop him from being one of the best masters in the game, specially as long as there is some concealing terrain in the table.

[Adran]

1 minute ago, ShinChan said:

6 games were played with Ivan in the January's event so far (out of 8 possible).

4 Wins, 1 draw and 1 lost. The player that lost, hasn't won a game yet.

The only draw was against a Sandeep, another summoner, but with way more card draw than Ivan.

Knowing what Ivan does, doesn't stop him from being one of the best masters in the game, specially as long as there is some concealing terrain in the table.

I'm still saying its easier to learn how to use Ivan than it is to learn how to play against Ivan. And this so far still fits my prediction. Although it'll need  6-12 months to find out if I was actually right. (I know, its a prediction that at the moment you can't prove I'm wrong about. ) 

I think he has some hard counters, but you need to use them carefully to make them work. Its not quite as extreme as Armour in a Hoffman list, but I think they are there, and I'm pretty sure that there are very few people that have faced him enough yet to really try out those counters. 

[ShinChan]

53 minutes ago, Adran said:

I think he has some hard counters, but you need to use them carefully to make them work. Its not quite as extreme as Armour in a Hoffman list, but I think they are there, and I'm pretty sure that there are very few people that have faced him enough yet to really try out those counters. 

Would you care to mention any of those hard counters? It is for a friend...  

[Adran]

5 minutes ago, ShinChan said:

Would you care to mention any of those hard counters? It is for a friend...  

Stunned, low wp, mass terrain destruction, non attack damage, anti summoning stuff, anti demise are all areas you can hurt what I see as the core DUA play style. 

Now picking the right combination at the same time, that's the trick.

[ShinChan]

2 minutes ago, Adran said:

Stunned, low wp, mass terrain destruction, non attack damage, anti summoning stuff, anti demise are all areas you can hurt what I see as the core DUA play style. 

Now picking the right combination at the same time, that's the trick.

Stunned is not a problem for Ivan, he can just give it to Mr Mordrake. Ivan is more protected against conditions than models with Nihilism. 

I've played Wong vs Ivan, Umbra/Dua can play wide enough to get little advantage of indirect damage. Anti summoning stuff sucks this edition, unless you're talking about Gravity Well, which 2 models have. Anti Demise will only hurt Mr Mordrake, and apart from Execute, there are few sources of it.

For destroying terrain, the most reliable source of doing that in the whole game is probably Mad Dog and models with Lost Knowledge, which are 2 in the whole game and they're masters. Ivan can kill Mad Dog in a single activation without too much effort (I've seen it happening). Also the crew's capabilities to generate shadow markers are big, like generating 3-6 each turn in different spots, in a way that a Blow it to Hell can only reduce them.

Let's also remember that Ivan only needs Gibson from his keyword to work at 100% of his potential. He can bring as much other tech as he wants, like the Archivist for extra card draw and winning the initiative, The Emissary, to make the key pieces even more difficult to kill, Bellhop Porter to give a model +5 shielded.

There are things that Ivan doesn't like to face? Definitely, but I wouldn't say that there are any hard counter to him (which other keywords actually have).

[Adran]

Just now, ShinChan said:

Stunned is not a problem for Ivan, he can just give it to Mr Mordrake. Ivan is more protected against conditions than models with Nihilism. 

I've played Wong vs Ivan, Umbra/Dua can play wide enough to get little advantage of indirect damage. Anti summoning stuff sucks this edition, unless you're talking about Gravity Well, which 2 models have. Anti Demise will only hurt Mr Mordrake, and apart from Execute, there are few sources of it.

For destroying terrain, the most reliable source of doing that in the whole game is probably Mad Dog and models with Lost Knowledge, which are 2 in the whole game and they're masters. Ivan can kill Mad Dog in a single activation without too much effort (I've seen it happening). Also the crew's capabilities to generate shadow markers are big, like generating 3-6 each turn in different spots, in a way that a Blow it to Hell can only reduce them.

Let's also remember that Ivan only needs Gibson from his keyword to work at 100% of his potential. He can bring as much other tech as he wants, like the Archivist for extra card draw and winning the initiative, The Emissary, to make the key pieces even more difficult to kill, Bellhop Porter to give a model +5 shielded.

There are things that Ivan doesn't like to face? Definitely, but I wouldn't say that there are any hard counter to him (which other keywords actually have).

Stun him twice, he is stunned. he can only pass a condition over if the recipient doesn't have it. (And this also ties in to the execute, Mordrake is strong for him, so removing him can have quite an effect on Ivan I think. I also think trying to set the demise off a lot could be a good plan, make him reform twice a turn and Ivan is out of health very fast). 

I was more talking about damage that isn't from an attack action, as that can't be reduced with Shadows, but lots of little hits also can work. 

Bayou have the Lucky Emissary, who is probably better than Mad dog at removing terrain. Papa loco, and the Soulstone miner are also not bad. From what I have seen the shadow markers clump. I would even look at things like Rats here to just kill shadows (well if I was Hamlin, I would anyway). 

 

Most of these things aren't going to help on a board with lots of concealment naturally, Ivan is going to be really strong in those anyway. And whilst a lot of the options I have talked about are rare, thats why I think people will need to learn to tech against Ivan, because its things you don't normally have but you may need. 

[Maniacal_cackle]

He does seem pretty strong, but worth noting abilities to reposition him are a good way to get around shadow markers.

That was my plan for him. The whole game my opponent had to play around getting Reaped.

[Maniacal_cackle]

Oh, also irreducible damage. The whole game Ivan was careful to stay 10 inches from Molly rather than 8, so I couldn't deal 9 irreducible.

I managed to land it on his Emissary, though.

EDIT: he also seems a bit attrition-y, and vulnerable to heals, but Brocken Spectre sorts that out if he can land one.

[Cedar]

I've played a few games as Ivan and his crew, and my god, they are amazing on so many levels. Here are my thoughts about them.

Starting with the Man himself - front of English Ivan card shows a wall of text. His DF and WP are average for a master - 5 DF and 6 WP are nothing special to write about. At first glance, it appears that he is quite slow, with only 4 MV and lack of Unimpended or Rush - but this is not true when we learn about his Actions.  11 WD is around average for a Master, same goes for Size of 2.

Looking at his Abilities, from top-down - first, we have Black Mirror. Great defensive tech, in my opinion, it’s better than Nihilism. You can pass any number of burning/poison/injured to Mr Mordrake, same goes for first Slow, Adversary, Stunned, Fast, Staggered. In return, Mordrake can move his Focused, Distracted and Shielded to Ivan. This ability itself means that Ivan has an upper hand when facing certain masters who rely on those conditions.

Dark Deception is his main tool of staying alive - reduce all those focused shots that deal severe damage to 0 by removing one of your markers. Just be careful - irreducible damage is still a no-no, and watch out for the models with Blow It to Hell. Note: it works only against enemy Attack Actions - so Abilities (like demise(explosive) or Lethe Caress), tactical actions(like “Make Me Proud Boys” or Rider actions), hazardous terrain and condition damage is unaffected.

Sustaining Shadows - One of the few ways Ivan supports his summons (and totem). From my experience, the model that heals the most is Mordrake. It’s a nice ability, but as both Ivan attacks, as well as one of his tactical actions, has a range of 10, which means usually there won’t be many shady friends to heal.

Penumbral Converter - personally it’s Ability that I overlooked the most - too bad as it’s amazing. You can place a Scheme in an area where Ivan wants to go, and at the end of his activation - just swap it for another Shadow Marker. Or, on the other hand - to block enemy Scheme - at end of activation turn his scheme 6” away for the friendly marker. You can also turn shadow markers into your own Schemes, scoring points in the process.

Ungentlemanly Affairs is an Ability whole Department shares - Using Concealment, Distracted and Focused as means you flip 4 cards on an attack with ivan - which works both as a way of increasing chances of flipping a good card as well as Black Joker magnet - that’s one of the reasons I’m trying to keep BJ in my hand till the last turn if I can. It’s an Ability that makes certain crews that rely on Distracted to cry, as well as giving you the advantage in shootouts through the Concealing terrain.

From my experience, he is semi-protected from lures and bring it - concealment means that those attacks suffer a  to hit, and, which I find quite funny - most concealing terrain in-game are forests, which is both concealing and severe, so each lure moves him only 2” and 3” in case of bring it.

Looking at the back of his card we have Runic Siphon - 10” attack (without a projectile) that deals low (for a master) damage of 2/3/4. The attack has a stat of 6 and is resisted with WP, so you should hit most of the models - except Riders or certain masters. However, due to the sheer number of cards Ivan flips in his attack, it’s possible that an opposing player won’t have a good card to cheat the duel. Runic Siphon also has a unique way of gaining suit to a duel - you can trade one (AND ONLY ONE)  for the . That leaves you attacking usually with only 3 cards instead of 4. But why do you need crows for? Well, first of all - Shadow Pin trigger that changes Ivan damage track to 3/4/5 and handles out Staggered. It works only if the opponent has a Concealment or is within 3” of friendly Shadow Marker. Note that enemy model does not have to be in concealing terrain to have concealment, you just need to draw LoS through Concealing terrain. It means that Ivan can shoot through a Shadow marker, gain a positive that is changed for a Crow and hit enemy model for 3/4/5. Also - remember that when drawing LoS through Concealing terrain Ivan stands in, if any single sightline drawn between Ivan and the target passes through 1” or less, you may ignore the Concealment but you dont have to. Also, the target will still have Concealment. in such a situation. This trigger alone makes Ivan capable of dealing a ridiculous amount of damage, with only Cooper and McCabe being masters that are able to reliably hit for more reliably. His second trigger - Intercision - allows you to summon an Umbra minion with a cost equal to the enemy Wp stat increased by 2. Note that Injured condition lowers enemy WP stat, so be careful when trying to summon something from such a model. The breakpoints for summons are (for now) 3, 5 and 6. From 3 WP models, you can summon Nocturnes, from 5 WP - Daevas and when attacking models with Wp of 6 or more - Broken Spectres. I’ll get into those models in appropriate sections but for now, just remember that threat of Specter appearing in the middle of enemy Crew is something the second player will have to think about, even during creating their crew. Daevas are much more common and in many cases, they are preferred summons over Spectres. I find summoning Nocturnes not really that good - it’s usually just an option if you don’t have the possibility to summon something better. The upgrade Ivan attaches is nuts - the only downside is Stunned(so beware when facing Woes), while the upside is two ways of creating even more Shadow Markers. Personally, I think this is the strongest upgrade any summoner attaches to their summoned models.

Black Soulstone is Shockwave attack that requires 6 to work (and - surprisingly- is a Projectile). Mv 13 duel in 1” from the marker is pretty average for the attack. Friendly Umbra models (including Ivan) may ignore effects of this attack. Why did I mention Ivan? Well, because this attack drops Shadow marker instead of regular Shockwave, so you can throw it within 2” of Ivan for additional protection. This allows him to hit enemies within 4” from him while creating some protection. Two triggers he has on this attack are Surge - occasional card draw is good - and Swift Action, so you can use the action again - which means there is an option enemy would have to pass the Mv duel twice. For me, it’s more a utility tool than an offensive one, but sometimes you can kill or wound 2-3 models with a single action.

Encroaching Shadows is a tactical action that allows Ivan to move Shadow Markers or Umbra models - including himself. 6” push is nice, especially that you ignore models during it. It’s super useful for moving Umbra (who all, except for Nocturnes, have Mv of 4) or for escaping from combat (even maybe forcing enemies to pass a TN 13 Mv duel or gain distracted); The trigger is nice when used on Spectres, but I wouldn’t rely much on it.

Shade Step is powerful bonus Action, that allows Ivan to place anywhere within 6”, as long as it’s a Concealing Terrain. The trigger, Trail of Dusk, allows dropping another Shadow marker in base contact immediately, so before placing - so at worst it gives Ivan a 1” place and Shadow Marker. It’s the most common way for Ivan to move, both into and out of action. This, combined with Encroaching Shadows, means that it’s almost impossible to keep him in combat. Also Staggered doesn’t work that good, as both his methods of moving are unrelated to his Mv stat.

Mr Mordrake is Ivan’s totem - and personally, he is one of the best totems in-game. Df of 6 is shared across all Umbra (except Ivan). Low Wp is another thing Umbra models have in common, and Mordrake is not an exception - although WP 4 seems average for a totem. 4 Mv and Sz 2 are the same as Ivan has.

Black Mirror - Mordrake will work as a sponge for negative conditions Ivan receives, as well as his focus battery - each time Mordrake makes a Concentrate Action (or gains focus/distracted/shielded in another way), he can give those conditions to Ivan. It means he basically works as 4th Action for a Master, and of ways to give Ivan to swap for .

Born of Shadow is shared among Umbra models - the area within 1” is Concealing terrain. It means that Mordrake has protection against shooting actions, as well as providing Concealing terrain for ungentlemanly affaris and Shade Step. It allows Ivan to leap closer to the action on turn one, even without any Shadow Markers in play. Remember that if the enemy model is close enough to Mordrake, he can ignore the Concealment.

Ungentlemanly Affairs - Same as for Ivan - a way of turning into  and being able to counter distracted based crews.

Demise(Silhouette) is really powerful Ability, working in similar fashion Leveticus demise works. When Mordrake is killed, he can place into base contact with Ivan. If he does, he heals 2, ends all conditions on itself, gains Shielded +1 (which can be transferred to Ivan thanks to Black Mirror), then Ivan suffers 2 irreducible damage. The important part is “if he does” - any effect that prevents placement (gravity well, Lodestone token or simple lack of space) means that Mordrake dies. Also, beware of any anti-demise (Lantern of Souls, Execute, Archivist, Cooper) and anti-healing (Mark of Vengeance, Withering Away) tech. This ability is amazing if you have Hidden Martyrs in the pool - just note Mordrake as one of the models and he should be fine by the end of the game, ready to engage some models.

Reach Through is one of two attacks Mordrake has. It’s 1” melee attack with stat 5 that attacks enemy MV. This means it works around almost every defensive trigger in-game, 2/3/4 damage track is low (though we have to remember this is a free model) and Heal 1 is nice - it allows Mordrake to be alive for few moments longer. The triggers it has are amazing - Lingering Shadow drops Shadow marker in base contact with the target and Claimed by Shadows can remove even an enemy master for the entire game. It’s not very reliable(as you need the marker in contact with the target in first place), but just threat of it usually works. Note that Ivan can push the Shadow Marker 6” away from enemy models, so getting out will be much harder.

Drag Under is 6” attack that targets enemy Wp. Due to Mordrake initial combination of Ungentlemanly affairs and Born of Shadow, it will always be 5 stat. ranged Staggered with a trigger to give Distracted to other enemy models is usually not worth an action, but it’s always an option if you need it.

Shade Step is similar to the one Ivan Has, though it needs 5 instead of 4 to work. Trail of Dusk is the same trigger Ivan has, and due to this - another source of markers for him. Reconstitute is the built-in trigger that grants the ability to heal by removing the Shadow marker in base contact with him. Sometimes it can be worth to heal, but usually, I just let Mordrake die, so he can reborn close to Ivan.

Overall, both Master and Totem are strong pair, protecting each other from enemy conditions. Their toolkit is versatile, suited for “dirty” fighting - using concealment for your advantage, impairing enemy movement, or summoning models in the middle of the enemy crew. Ivan damage output can be a surprise for many players, as Summoners don’t typically work as damage dealers, leaving this job to models they create. Due to Dark deception and Black Mirror Assassinate is hard against Ivan, unless your opponent brings irreducible damage to the crew, or has ways of dealing damage through Abilities and Tactical Actions.

I’ll cover more models in another post soon

[Whut]

Hey All,
Just posted my DUA-Umbra Keyword Review. Check it out if interested, and let me know if I missed anything important.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a3alu3DOWx8

 

[HomelessOne]

I think your audio cuts out briefly when explaining your OOK rating for Gibson.

I also vote for Cadmus next.

[Cedar]

5 hours ago, Whut said:

Hey All,
Just posted my DUA-Umbra Keyword Review. Check it out if interested, and let me know if I missed anything important.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a3alu3DOWx8

 

I really like it! Though when you said that Daeva can copy Vernon and Welles attack I think you should disclaim, that it's good to copy only shockwave attack, as - due to born of shadow - Daeva will suffer a  to the view of the endless.

I agree that people usually like to take WP 5 models so Ivan won't be able to summon Brocken, forgetting that he can simply kill those models with his 3/4/5 damage track.

I don't know if Ivan is terrible against Ressers, Transmortis in particular. He might be in disadvantage, but it won't be one-sided battle. On the other hand, you can always go Jedza who is much better against ressers than him  

[Maniacal_cackle]

3 minutes ago, Cedar said:

I don't know if Ivan is terrible against Ressers, Transmortis in particular. He might be in disadvantage, but it won't be one-sided battle. On the other hand, you can always go Jedza who is much better against ressers than him  

Jeez, if Ressers are a weakness of Ivan, I'd hate to see him at full strength.

For Jedza, I assumed she'd be bad against Ressers since we have tons of anti-healing tech, not to mention solid tools to deal with bubble crews (Reap on Dead Rider).

[Maniacal_cackle]

5 hours ago, Whut said:

Hey All,
Just posted my DUA-Umbra Keyword Review. Check it out if interested, and let me know if I missed anything important.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a3alu3DOWx8

 

This seems like it might be worth editing into the original post, so that new players looking at the thread have a good place to start.

Thoughts, @HomelessOne?

[Cedar]

43 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

For Jedza, I assumed she'd be bad against Ressers since we have tons of anti-healing tech, not to mention solid tools to deal with bubble crews (Reap on Dead Rider).

TBH I haven't played against any resser player who brought Dead Rider yet when playing against her. He is good and a priority target for the crew to kill. I think she's really good against almost any resser master, sparing Molly and Kirai (as both have ways of dealing irreducible damage, and in case of Kirai - Mark of Vengeance). Jedza is amazing in Recover Evidence and Public executions though, and my go-to choice for those strats (she's almost as dirty as Levi in Executions).

[HomelessOne]

4 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

This seems like it might be worth editing into the original post, so that new players looking at the thread have a good place to start.

Thoughts, @HomelessOne?

I'm down for it if Whut is. Kind of start moving the original posts toward something like the big ol' Resser thread(s).

[NoisyAssassin]

6 hours ago, Cedar said:

I really like it! Though when you said that Daeva can copy Vernon and Welles attack I think you should disclaim, that it's good to copy only shockwave attack, as - due to born of shadow - Daeva will suffer a  to the view of the endless.

You can ignore up to 1" of concealing sightlines for terrain you're in. Since Born of Shadow extends directly 1", the Daeva should be fine to copy non-melee attacks without a

[Cedar]

3 hours ago, NoisyAssassin said:

You can ignore up to 1" of concealing sightlines for terrain you're in. Since Born of Shadow extends directly 1", the Daeva should be fine to copy non-melee attacks without a

Seriously? i thought It'd be something similar to this:

 

But I'm not especially great at maths. I assumed hypotenuse to be 40.4, as it is 15mm from center of the base to edge, then there is 1" of aura generated, so in total 40.4mm. Maybe I'm wrong and somebody could correct me? 

[Adran]

You draw sight lines from the edge of a base so I'm not sure why you're looking at the middle. Auras are also measured from the edges of the base. 

 

[Cedar]

Ive just had to mix the rules with toward and away, where it refers to center of the object

[Whut]

On 1/26/2021 at 8:20 AM, HomelessOne said:

I'm down for it if Whut is. Kind of start moving the original posts toward something like the big ol' Resser thread(s).

I graciously accept

[Maniacal_cackle]

Some further thoughts on English Ivan. Just had my second game against him in the first round of the February tournament (Recover Evidence).

Some more thoughts about the keyword, and beating it (mostly repeating past impressions)

• The keyword may be a bit weak into Recover Evidence, since it has to not only kill you but also go pick up the markers. As I've said previously, the crew seems weak to anything that forces it to cross the centreline.
• The crew is a bit 'one-trick pony.' If you can deal with English Ivan, you really shut down the crew (just don't spend a whole bunch of effort giving him slow).
• The crew is so card hungry. You can really shut down a lot of their turns just by having a superior hand. Feels really bad for Ivan when all his attacks miss by 1, for example.
  • Hidden Agenda feels like the best upgrade for him, to smooth this out. Being able to cheat with the card hidden seems very good.
• Archivist is soooooo good. The +2 initiative often means your opponent doesn't even bother contesting it, and also having another min 3 beater in the crew that can operate so efficiently is very solid.
  • Also lets you siphon life off Mordrake if you're on Recover Evidence to drop the token in your deployment zone (which again, might not be the best plan).
• Austera and Twigge seem like a good tech piece to help with the crossing the centreline issue as well as to improve overall card quality. But 8 stones for card selection is a LOT.
  • The bonus action is also just devastating at times. Not being able to dodge the damage is intense. If you don't have hard to wound, I imagine then it gets super scary having a consistent "I do 5 damage to something 18" away through terrain and ignoring LOS"
• Alpha strikes seem pretty awful against Ivan, and aggression in general (unless you can be aggressive with your whole crew).
• Slow and steady seems to be the way to go against Ivan, which is a bit counterintuitive for a 'summoner.'
• Activation control is super good against Ivan.

Overall, the crew still feels very beatable. I got a tie. I had massive misplays early on, and he had his misplays later in the game, which overall balanced out. I think if the terrain had been a bit more favourable and I hadn't misplayed, I may have even felt favoured to win. Was much easier on the forest heavy map against him (since forests are dense, you can hide behind them and then run through them).

Feeling very good about the Molly vs. Ivan matchup still, looking forward to more games.