Fixing Revenant

[Gloomy]

7 hours ago, Paddywhack said:

lampads don't work for their cost. Make them 6SS minions and tweak them a bit. Even if it means losing Demise. Could give them HtW or HtK in place or make them Df6. Something

This. I'd love to see them repurposed as a 6ss Scheme runner.

[Maniacal_cackle]

3 minutes ago, Gloomy said:

This. I'd love to see them repurposed as a 6ss Scheme runner.

My favourite counter to this is we already have shieldbearers and mourners at 6 (and grave diggers and bone piles).

My favourite costing setup is make Draugrs cost 8 (and give them a power level that is suitable to that, possibly just below the power of hanged?), move Lampads to cost 7 (with a significant rework, my preference being the bury/unbury theme), and if we're really dreaming make Mourners 5. Then we have sweet options at 5/6/7/8.

[Gloomy]

6 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

My favourite costing setup is make Draugrs cost 8 (and give them a power level that is suitable to that, possibly just below the power of hanged?), move Lampads to cost 7 (with a significant rework, my preference being the bury/unbury theme), and if we're really dreaming make Mourners 5. Then we have sweet options at 5/6/7/8.

Yep or this I'd be fine with. They just don't feel good at 8ss, to be honest if they came down to 7ss but stayed as they are I think they'd be ok

The models are so cool, I'd love to be able to put 2 of them on the table regularly  

[Paddywhack]

4 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

My favourite counter to this is we already have shieldbearers and mourners at 6 (and grave diggers and bone piles).

My shield bearers never end up very far down field. They spend to much time moving others or starting near others to Take the Hit. 

Mourners... well, they're Mourners...

4 hours ago, Gloomy said:

Yep or this I'd be fine with. They just don't feel good at 8ss, to be honest if they came down to 7ss but stayed as they are I think they'd be ok

Even at 7 they are a hard sell with stats of 5 and df4. 

 

[Saduhem]

I always take 2 Shieldbearers with GST and they just don't die!

[Maniacal_cackle]

1 hour ago, Paddywhack said:

My shield bearers never end up very far down field. They spend to much time moving others or starting near others to Take the Hit. 

Mourners... well, they're Mourners...

 

Yeah, I just like the distribution of costs xD nothing wrong with a 7ss schemes runner (although some of my favourite scheme runners are Archie, Rider, Seamus, and Reva, so perhaps I just pay too much for schemers xD)

EDIT: also worth noting it depends on what Reva's role in the faction is. My other main is Molly, so I don't pick Reva for super scheme-y pools. I usually pick her more for zone control.

[MrPieChee]

7 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

My favourite counter to this is we already have shieldbearers and mourners at 6 (and grave diggers and bone piles).

I don't see this as a negative at all - if anything having a group of minions at the same cost makes it easier to adapt your crew (you can have a core list which is easy to swap models in and out).

The only consideration if they have the same cost is that they have different, well defined roles.

[ShinChan]

10 hours ago, Saduhem said:

I always take 2 Shieldbearers with GST and they just don't die!

That's a huge point investment on a 5Wds model.

Actually we think that shieldbearers are good only because the rest of the Revenant minions suck. But having Df 4, and cost 6, they should have 6 Wds.

[Paddywhack]

1 hour ago, ShinChan said:

That's a huge point investment on a 5Wds model.

Actually we think that shieldbearers are good only because the rest of the Revenant minions suck. But having Df 4, and cost 6, they should have 6 Wds.

Or df5. Would that be too much to ask? 

[ShinChan]

6 minutes ago, Paddywhack said:

Or df5. Would that be too much to ask? 

I don't know which one would be better. I don't want them to have a "big buff", so I would be fine with whatever is worse between Df5 and 6Wds. Otherwise, they could go to cost 5.

Regarding Draugrs, I already said it many times, they're easy to take down before any healing can happen, so they could have HtK instead of HtW and gain The Final Veil.

Lampads need to have Stat 6 and better (or printed) triggers in at least one of their attacks and some burning/shielded/corpse interaction.

[Maniacal_cackle]

Shieldbearers - aren't they already one of the best 6-cost models in the faction? One issue is 6-cost models in general are usually poor. The good ones are outliers.

Draugr - yeah, totally want them tankier. I like 9 wounds, but hard to kill fits too.

EDIT: hard to kill + final veil seems super strong though. Would be hesitant to give them both.

[ShinChan]

19 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Shieldbearers - aren't they already one of the best 6-cost models in the faction? One issue is 6-cost models in general are usually poor. The good ones are outliers.

Draugr - yeah, totally want them tankier. I like 9 wounds, but hard to kill fits too.

No they're not, some examples of models that are better for the same cost due to their utility/tankiness/damage.

• Nurses
• Drowned
• Rabble Risers
• Undergraduate

Ahigarus are arguably better, they cost 1ss less and they can be summoned.

[Maniacal_cackle]

3 hours ago, ShinChan said:

No they're not, some examples of models that are better for the same cost due to their utility/tankiness/damage.

• Nurses
• Drowned
• Rabble Risers
• Undergraduate

Ahigarus are arguably better, they cost 1ss less and they can be summoned.

None of those pulse out focus. A shieldbearer often gives out 5 focus on relevant models in a game for me (3 on turn one, 2 later on). And then it proceeds to give out extra moves to otherwise slow models like grave golem. And does some great stuff with pyre markers.

Rabble risers on the other hand I have largely stopped using (although partially as the other options at other costs are just better).

Not sure about Drowned. They have movement 4, but Im sure they have their place.

Doxies are pretty good as well, though.

Nurses and undergraduates are certainly up there!

[ShinChan]

3 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

None of those pulse out focus. A shieldbearer often gives out 5 focus on relevant models in a game for me (3 on turn one, 2 later on). And then it proceeds to give out extra moves to otherwise slow models like grave golem. And does some great stuff with pyre markers (edit: whoops, ignore the Research Mission part).

Rabble risers on the other hand I have largely stopped using (although partially as the other options at other costs are just better).

Not sure about Drowned. They have movement 4, but Im sure they have their place.

Doxies are pretty good as well, though.

Nurses and undergraduates are certainly up there!

You can do the pulse with an upgrade or with a Gravedigger, so they're not that much needed for that. I'm not saying they're bad, but definitely they're not the top of the 6ss minions.

Rabble Risers are good at 1 thing: killing and force the opponent to deal with them, while being decently resilient for their cost (and summonable). 2 Attacks with focus or 2 regular attacks and 1 with focus each turn is something that the opponent has to take into account, even if the damage track is nothing impressive (specially having the Quick Reflexes trigger, which I didn't count on my math).

Drowned mobility gets compensated by ignoring Severe and Hazardous terrain and being able to shoot. They actually have a longer thread range of 12" vs 11" of the shieldbearers.

Bone Piles and Dead Doxys are good models, but maybe not as good as the others I mentioned.

[Maniacal_cackle]

Fair enough!

I do think we should be wary of overbuffing, though. We have 7-8 solidly competitive masters, and are overall a very strong faction.

[Paddywhack]

1 hour ago, ShinChan said:

don't know which one would be better. I don't want them to have a "big buff", so I would be fine with whatever is worse between Df5 and 6Wds. Otherwise, they could go to cost 5

They are plenty of other models with similar stats that have better df, more ends, or even better armour (komainu). Heck, rail workers are only 5ss and have df4, armor1 and HtK.

I think there is certainly room for a tiny boost. 

Drowned are awesome. Combat finesse can shut down a beater. Add in vengeance for a bonus. 

[ShinChan]

1 minute ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Fair enough!

I do think we should be wary of overbuffing, though. We have 7-8 solidly competitive masters, and are overall a very strong faction.

Definitely! I think Reva herself shouldn't be touched or he can become too strong easily. But currently, I feel more inclined to hire OOK or versatile models than to invest SS on half-efficient models like Draugr, Lampads, Mourners and Vincent.

Restless Spirit is okay and Shieldbearers, even if they're a bit under the curve, they're playable. Wanyudo is good.

[Maniacal_cackle]

1 minute ago, ShinChan said:

Definitely! I think Reva herself shouldn't be touched or he can become too strong easily. But currently, I feel more inclined to hire OOK or versatile models than to invest SS on half-efficient models like Draugr, Lampads, Mourners and Vincent.

Restless Spirit is okay and Shieldbearers, even if they're a bit under the curve, they're playable. Wanyudo is good.

Totally! In an ideal world we'd have a pretty solid rework of the keyword (with an overall strength boost for lampads/draugr/mourners especially), with nerfs if necessary (for example, if lampads are stronger I can imagine summoning corpse candles with burning may no longer be necessary). Would also love to see Vincent nerfed in some regards, so that more power can be put into other areas.

[Saduhem]

With GST Having :

Armor +1

Shielded +1/+3 most turns

Regeneration 2

The Final Veil

Terrifying 11

Triggless heal on attacks

 

Is pretty tanky for 8 stones if you ask me. I'm not sure if I know of another 8 stone packet that has that many layers of defense while offering so much utility.

They make a 1 of Masks a friendly 6 inch push, which usually results in me never having to take a walk action with Reva. It's also not a damage flip. I took Barbaros with Parker last night and he ended up taking 4 health away from my master for a moderate flip when I really needed a push. Never have to worry about that with a Shieldbearer.

 

These guys offer me consistent attack vectors for Reva, mass focus, and both friendly and enemy pushes while forcing my opponent to only target them if they know they can get through hard to kill in a single activation. Having so many sources of healing brings them back from hard to kill over and over again. Take the hit is just icing on top.

[Maniacal_cackle]

Dead doxies + GST arguably give comparable level of defense + utility, but part of that is just because they gain blasphemous ritual off of GST (and then need more corpse marker support, whereas it is built into revenant crews already).

And arguably Hanged, but let's not go there.

But also you forgot Hard to Kill on the shieldbearers xD they do have an impressive suite of abilities.

One thing to note as well is blasphemous ritual is just so insanely good. After playing some Neverborn where it is harder to get it, I am really conscious of what a powerhouse it is.

EDIT: actually my biggest complaint about shieldbearers is how hard it is to get two of them setup to blasphemous ritual turn 1 without setting other resources back. Recent funeral would be a major boon to doing that, but what crew wants 2 shieldbearer + 1 mourner? It is just clunky. You could do shieldbearer + Mourner with GST, but then Mourners need to be better.

[Saduhem]

6 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Dead doxies + GST arguably give comparable level of defense + utility, but part of that is just because they gain blasphemous ritual off of GST (and then need more corpse marker support, whereas it is built into revenant crews already).

And arguably Hanged, but let's not go there.

But also you forgot Hard to Kill on the shieldbearers xD they do have an impressive suite of abilities.

One thing to note as well is blasphemous ritual is just so insanely good. After playing some Neverborn where it is harder to get it, I am really conscious of what a powerhouse it is.

EDIT: actually my biggest complaint about shieldbearers is how hard it is to get two of them setup to blasphemous ritual turn 1 without setting other resources back. Recent funeral would be a major boon to do

I think I mentioned the interactions with HtK in the explanation :}

Unless something changed from the way Corpse candles work that I have not followed:

Activate corpse candle X 2

Shieldbearer 1 charges corpse candle while staying within 3 of rest of the crew (You can smack Reva first for a push if you wish), generate 2 Pyres and a corpse marker. Use Blasphemous ritual on said marker for Mass focus.

Repeat with Shieldbearer 2. 

Enjoy 4 Pyres and focus +2. 

If your push targets took damage, Final Veil should have topped them off by now.

 

Does demise no longer allow corpse markers or something? 

[Maniacal_cackle]

Just now, Saduhem said:

 Unless something changed from the way Corpse candles work that I have not followed:

Activate corpse candle X 2

Shieldbearer 1 charges corpse candle while staying within 3 of rest of the crew (You can smack Reva first for a push if you wish), generate 2 Pyres and a corpse marker. Use Blasphemous ritual on said marker for Mass focus.

Repeat with Shieldbearer 2. 

Enjoy 4 Pyres and focus +2. 

If your push targets took damage, Final Veil should have topped them off by now.

 

Does demise no longer allow corpse markers or something? 

The main thing is Reva can only generate one corpse candle a turn, I believe, so you can do that but you end up down a corpse candle. I prefer to go into turn two with two corpse candles if possible.

But also I'm still bad with Reva resource management, so it could just be that I need to get better xD

[Saduhem]

1 hour ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

The main thing is Reva can only generate one corpse candle a turn, I believe, so you can do that but you end up down a corpse candle. I prefer to go into turn two with two corpse candles if possible.

But also I'm still bad with Reva resource management, so it could just be that I need to get better xD

I'm one of the crazy people that uses a Lampad :}
 

It usually drags my pyres far up the field turn 1. After that, between the pyres, the bearers with shielded and burning, and the lampad with burning, I barely even use corpse candles. I already have vectors and burning galore, so I can live with 1 less candle if I can instead have focus +2 across the crew and clutter the middle of the board with pyres.

[unti]

Am I missing something: a lampad can only put a pyre 5inch up the board.. is that enough to be in the middle or in the way of your opponent?

I'm just asking because I really want to use at least one lampad...

[Maniacal_cackle]

8 minutes ago, unti said:

Am I missing something: a lampad can only put a pyre 5inch up the board.. is that enough to be in the middle or in the way of your opponent?

I'm just asking because I really want to use at least one lampad...

If you view it as an overall game effect of movement, a Lampad can produce about 25 inches of pyre marker movement over the course of a game.

EDIT: For turn one specifically, you can get a corpse candle to walk it 8 inches, then the lampad boosts up to it and walks and moves it another ~7 or so. So middle of the board turn one is quite easy.