Yasunori, Do A Barrel Roll!

[Hooloovoo]

13 hours ago, regleant said:

I have not tried to use Revel in Chaos, yet, as I am loath to help my opponent. But that seems to be a great way to utilize more of his offensive and defensive tech. 

I agree, my general impression even among people who think Yasunori is good is that Revel in Chaos is not terribly great.   Taking damage to prevent damage is a loosing propositioning and the symmetric card draw is generally not worth it since its a 50/50 if it will help or harm you.  It also needs a mask to even trigger so the window where it would be good to use it to keep the opponent from dropping below 3 cards during his activation is small and again there is the self damage.

I think that if Chasing Advance cared about your hand size instead of your opponent it would be a lot better since you would have much more control over Yasunori's mask triggers.

As far as Revel in Chaos i don't know.  Just you drawing cards for each point of damage would be too good since it would let you filter your hand while not discarding your good cards.  Maybe if the max number of cards you can draw were equal to the current turn number it would be balanced.   Completely changing it into a scheme or board control ability would probably fit him better now that he is now more focused on manipulating the board state.

 

 

[korgal]

I played Yasunori before the nerve. I never played Revel in chaos.
I wonder if Yasunori should not be seen like the Riders of other factions. When I compare now, I really prefer a Rider. Honestly I don't come here to cry.

I play other fig now but I find it a shame to have made that this fig will now be put aside. Look for example, for 1ss more, the Coryphée duet is really very very impressive. for the same cost, the Riders are top!
 I think it is important to take into account the opinion of players who spend a lot of time on Malifaux (before covid, 1 or 2 games per week). Thank you all for participating in the discussion.

[Cursed25]

On 6/5/2020 at 9:32 PM, RisingPhoenix said:

I want some of what you're smoking, that stuff must be killer.

Although if you want to make an argument for an across the board nerf of a faction, this would be it...

 

On 6/6/2020 at 12:37 AM, LeperColony said:

If you don't think pre-nerf Yasunori was top tier, what would an example of a top tier model be for you?

I'll show you why I don't think Yasunori was a top tier model. Every thing I will say now is for pre-nerf stuff. First a little definition.

 

For me a top tier model is a model that bring way more than what you paid for him consistently. A power ranking in Malifaux is always tied to the cost of the model in conjunction to his abilities. So a garbage model can become top-tier if you bring his cost low enough. Top tier models are meta defining, these models are so strong in there specific role that you will always compared them to your other choice when crew building. Even other factions start to compare their models to the top tier ones. Because not all factions got top-tier models but these type of rankings change a lot depending of meta and buff/nerf. Here are some examples of models I think were top tier.

 

-The strongest model TT had by a long reach was Shenlong. This model was the king of the show. No other model in the game could kill as much as him for is cost. He had everything, extreme damage, mobility, movement shenanigans, counter-scheming, healing, etc. He was meta defining because other factions had to prepare a strategy when facing TT for fear of facing Shenlong. When you were crew building taking Shenlong as a second master was a super strong choice. (if your meta is playing RAW of course.) Just him and his 2 totems would have bring you way more than any other combinations of 22ss. He was so strong that all by himself he could wreck crews with is combination of irreducible dmg, super high stats and almost always on positive attack test.

-Kitty Dumont was a top tier model. When you look at her you first see a very good schemer, with a lot of movement tools for your crew. She is an A tier model with most of her card. She becomes top tier when you see her Under the table trigger. You have a henchman with rig the deck, that only need low and a hard to wound model (Yasunori but I much prefer Depleted for this role) to draw you 6 cards per turn if you need it. This is top tier material

-Minako Rei was (and maybe still is) a top tier model. She can summon 2 of the best schemers available in TT and for less than what they cost. All you need is a way to generate scrap/shadow marker with a little card investment and you now have 3 above the curve schemers that will win you game! No one wanted to attack her for fear of the Wanyudo summon and if they kill the katashiro you can always summon him again. He will surely have committed more resources than you for killing him. Her draw back is that you need an efficient way of generating the scrap/shadow. for the scrap Foundry and Oni had no problem fueling her. For the shadow you have her own keyword or you could hire a few models. The strongest choice was Ototo. He has a reliable way of generating shadow (while being able to stay mobile) and he is a big threat on the board. This model is a true beater (not top tier but a strong A tier model).

-Pale Rider was a top tier model. In the Guild section of the forum there was a lot of posts about him and how strong he was! If you want to improve your game with Guild just take the Pale Rider and you are good to go. Just by himself this model could wreck your whole crew and he had the mobility to stay safe until he's ready to strike! The combination of irreducible dmg, slow and burning in an AoE was killer.

-Steam Arachnid swarm are the top tier version of Yasunori. They were doing exactly what he could do but better. Almost the same mobility (flight vs unimpeded), easier to hide (size 1 and 40mm vs size 3 and 50mm), higher attack stat with latch on, onslaught always built-in, a little less defensive but at least opponent as no saying on how tanky they are and on dmg most of the time! All this for 8ss and the option to take 2 of them. xD

 

Now let's look at the pros and cons of Yasunori:

Pros:

-Mobility

-high stats

-easy access to onslaught trigger

 

Cons:

-Chasing advantage and Unnatural reflexes/onslaught

-average damage track

-An ok bonus action and a garbage one

-his size

 

Yasunori has two main role, counter-scheming and harassing back line. If you take Yas only to scheme you are paying way to much for a job a katashiro will do better. Yas can't drop 2 schemes per turn and this makes him a sub par schemers. He will help you to scheme for sure but he will never be as efficient at putting schemes out has a katashiro or an huckster who both are as mobile as him, cheaper and easier to hide. So to make the most of him you also have to use his combat prowess.

 

Yas is a good counter-schemer because he can easily kill most little schemers and has the mobility to do far reaching schemes. He also is perfect against crew that like to have lots of frail to medium models. This is where he excels! Yasunori is not a bruiser, don't send him in the middle of a crew or against big fighters because he will hit a wall and once he's stuck he dies pretty fast. His chasing advantage is far from top tier because you gave your opponent the option to dictate what he can do. If you activate him early to guarantee your onslaught trigger, you have played your hand and opponent can choose to wait until he has less cards in hand to send his big boy hitting him and crushing him. If you activate him late you risk having no Onslaught trigger if opponent do not have enough cards left.

 

You have to play him as knife. He will circle the opponent, jump on lone weak target and do a little scheming. He is really good at this, don't worry I know this is strong and will win you game but there's other model in faction that can do exactly that. He is not the only one and he does not define the meta. If someone play against TT, they will not make plans to counter Yas. They won't fear the Thunders because of him 😛. He is a good tool and in certain situation will be excellent. But he does not push boundaries higher like other models I've listed.

 

 

[RisingPhoenix]

Maybe current Yasunori.  Pre-nerf Yas could easily go hit something for 2/4/5 damage twice turn 1, unless you played very close with yuor scheme runner (even then).  Even if it lived, and that was seriously no guarantee, turn 2 Yas could go hit something 4 times for 2/4/5.  That'd kill it, no question.  There was no way to go early in the turn to prevent that, because early in the turn Yas had Armor +2, so he could just sit there and wait for a target.  

Yes, if you completely kept to your bubble and didn't crawl outside it once, he'd "only" eat a single unit and then take an absolute dog pile of attacks before dying.  That'd mean he traded even.  And if Malifaux were a game about killing things, then he'd have been very powerful.  But it's a game about scheming, and in the course of a game, Yas could easily deny your opponent a point and score you a point, reliably, in almost any scheme pool.  And that was his floor.  His ceiling was usually scoring you 2 points, on his own, as well as denying the opponent 1.

Is that Minako Rei broken?  No.  Minako Rei was so far above the curve she literally damaged the entire game.  She still might be too good post nerf, and that's really saying something.  Yas was still too fucking good to exist.  There was no counter to him (even anti-armor didn't bypass his pseudo-armor).  

[Cursed25]

15 minutes ago, RisingPhoenix said:

Maybe current Yasunori.  Pre-nerf Yas could easily go hit something for 2/4/5 damage twice turn 1, unless you played very close with yuor scheme runner (even then).  Even if it lived, and that was seriously no guarantee, turn 2 Yas could go hit something 4 times for 2/4/5.  That'd kill it, no question.  There was no way to go early in the turn to prevent that, because early in the turn Yas had Armor +2, so he could just sit there and wait for a target.  

Yes, if you completely kept to your bubble and didn't crawl outside it once, he'd "only" eat a single unit and then take an absolute dog pile of attacks before dying.  That'd mean he traded even.  And if Malifaux were a game about killing things, then he'd have been very powerful.  But it's a game about scheming, and in the course of a game, Yas could easily deny your opponent a point and score you a point, reliably, in almost any scheme pool.  And that was his floor.  His ceiling was usually scoring you 2 points, on his own, as well as denying the opponent 1.

Is that Minako Rei broken?  No.  Minako Rei was so far above the curve she literally damaged the entire game.  She still might be too good post nerf, and that's really saying something.  Yas was still too fucking good to exist.  There was no counter to him (even anti-armor didn't bypass his pseudo-armor).  

Yas could not kill all models in the game reliably! any bruiser will often survive is 4 attacks in a turn and will wreck him in return! You have to choose your target with him and he has the mobility to do it.

But this makes the opponent choose who he wants to protect with is positioning. Also killing only one model with him will almost never be a fair trade for you because you will surely have killed a cheaper model than what he cost. He is not a Valedictorian, that's not his role! You use Yas to make pressure on opponent by being there, harrassing schemers and doing a little schemes. I often played and faced Yas in my games and he is strong that's for sure. But you can dictate what he can do with your positioning. If the opponent was willing to trade him in my games, most of the times he lost the trade!

 

This is why I think he was a strong model but not a top tier one. 🙂 

[RisingPhoenix]

Were you playing Ten Thunders in those games?  Or were you playing a balanced faction?

[Cursed25]

3 minutes ago, RisingPhoenix said:

Were you playing Ten Thunders in those games?  Or were you playing a balanced faction?

I play Guild and TT. When playing Guild, yes it was way harder but it was not impossible to face Yas. I got wrecked way more by other models (Shenlong and Swarm)

[korgal]

I hope for a return of Yasunori in the next errata ...

[Thatguy]

So, this is sorta a weird question but has anyone tried using Yasunori to draw 8 cards a turn with ?
If he's your first activation, you're essentially drawing 14 cards and keeping the best 6. Your opponent also draws 8, but discards randomly. Notably after the normal soulstone fixing.

It's a huge investment, bringing an 11 soulstone model and then like 8 ss to bring Sun Quiang or other healers to patch him back up. But picking the best 6 card hand you can out of a quarter of your deck sounds like it might be worth it.

[Maniacal_cackle]

1 minute ago, Thatguy said:

So, this is sorta a weird question but has anyone tried using Yasunori to draw 8 cards a turn with ?
If he's your first activation, you're essentially drawing 14 cards and keeping the best 6. Your opponent also draws 8, but discards randomly. Notably after the normal soulstone fixing.

It's a huge investment, bringing an 11 soulstone model and then like 8 ss to bring Sun Quiang or other healers to patch him back up. But picking the best 6 card hand you can out of a quarter of your deck sounds like it might be worth it.

My first game ever against TT was in a tournament where my opponent did exactly this. He was playing Asami, so got to get some good summons AND kept winning the corrupted idols flips.

[Azahul]

I've seen that exact trick every time I've seen Yasunori on the table post-nerf