Amateur Contender Posted October 24, 2019 Report Share Posted October 24, 2019 Alright y'all, I know these things have been discussed to death. However, this time I'm trying to build a physical list/table on which Masters and/or Key words excel in in certain Schemes and Strategies. The goal is to, rather than have a player scrounge through countless forum threads, provide the player with an easy to use reference sheet to help them better match their crews to the Schemes and Strats. In the attached word doc. you'll see a mock-up of a table that (hopefully) plainly shows which Masters love and hate Schemes, Strategies, and Scheme and Strategy combos. It's very elementary, sure. But the intention isn't to help veteran players build ultra-competitive tournament lists. It's more of a tool to assist newer/ casual players in understanding their keyword better; what they excel at, what their weaknesses are, etc. So, if y'all would be so kind as to review the document, provide feedback on how to make it easier to read, and maybe even add your thoughts on where certain Masters/Keywords fall on the list it would be really awesome! *edit* As requested, the document is now uploaded to Google Drive, where anyone can edit. https://drive.google.com/open?id=1n_CBUdyrpomRWnang0VzRfD5xdExLhK4MtoTTcHpTi0 4 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thstringer Posted October 24, 2019 Report Share Posted October 24, 2019 This is awesome. Thanks for all your hard work. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ludvig Posted October 24, 2019 Report Share Posted October 24, 2019 Great idea! I have limited experience in this edition but so far I would offer the following suggestions: I'd say the Hoff enjoys a good scrap so reckoning works well for him. Tossing watchers around let's him do pretty much any scheme in that. Tossing also works for plant explosives. Perdita has handled herself fairly well in Turf war by being fairly mobile and killing off enemies in the enemy quarters. I guess not the most survivable crew but if you commit hard enough you can remove their main beaters. Both Sonnia and Dashel might be liabilities in Turf war and reckoning but I haven't gotten them on the table yet. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amateur Contender Posted October 24, 2019 Author Report Share Posted October 24, 2019 Awesome! I'll definitely put those in the working reference sheet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beta Posted October 25, 2019 Report Share Posted October 25, 2019 Nice work! I'll put the sheet to the test next week at the german nationals 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
le_wahou Posted October 25, 2019 Report Share Posted October 25, 2019 That's interesting. Are you rating the leader or his keyword ? There are some models that should have their own chart : false witness for example is a STRONG model in detonate, lead lined coat is very potent for false claims, etc... To be added : Nellie loves deliver a message. Your opponent can not score it against her. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adran Posted October 25, 2019 Report Share Posted October 25, 2019 10 minutes ago, le_wahou said: That's interesting. Are you rating the leader or his keyword ? There are some models that should have their own chart : false witness for example is a STRONG model in detonate, lead lined coat is very potent for false claims, etc... To be added : Nellie loves deliver a message. Your opponent can not score it against her. That's often the problem with these lists, its a mixture of both leader and keyword, and play style. (And possibly table layout and opponent) and each person will do it based on different criteria. So its a nice resource to look at, but your own personal version is likely to be very different to the internet version, and its always worth remembering that. You can score 1 point for the end condition of Deliver a message against Nellie, but you are right you can not score the first point. I would suggest a 5th level of rating, neutral, to help judge between it being an entry in the chart, and it just not being a combination not looked at. It might not be as useful in the final chart, but it might help people knowing what needs considering. I might also consider doing an extra row at the top (labeled strategy only) and column to the side (labelled scheme only) to look at the stratergy/ scheme in general. So the view that Nellie doesn't like reckoning in general but loves Deliver a message in general might result in an overall neutral rating for that combination, and you can look too see why. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Impact UK Posted October 25, 2019 Report Share Posted October 25, 2019 Nice idea, deployment can add to the viability of a scheme or strategy also for a master/keyword. Plant Explosives & Corrupt Idols seem to be missing some masters, example in Dashel's keyword you have Mounted Guard that brings Ride With Me and Sergeant that has A New Horizon these can make many of the scheme's in these strategy's rather easy to both achieve and interrupt your opponent. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amateur Contender Posted October 25, 2019 Author Report Share Posted October 25, 2019 5 hours ago, Adran said: That's often the problem with these lists, its a mixture of both leader and keyword, and play style. (And possibly table layout and opponent) and each person will do it based on different criteria. So its a nice resource to look at, but your own personal version is likely to be very different to the internet version, and its always worth remembering that. I 100% agree. Any experience and skillful player can utilize just about any crew in any situation. This goes double when you're playing other experienced players who know your crews. Then the fun begins with bluffs and counter picks. My favorite thing to do is to take Lady J with LLC when killing Schemes are present and then just use her as highly effective (3 moves, a jump, and Ride With Me from Pale Rider) and unexpected scheme runner. This has worked really well with Plant Explosives and Breakthrough. But, like I said, this is merely a guide. It will be especially useful for new players who want a cursory knowledge on their crews strengths and weaknesses. Hopefully this will guide them towards some early wins and build confidence in themselves and their crews. I've seen players spend $50 on their crew, play them completely wrong (from a learner's perspective), and then never play that crew again. My plan is to have one for every faction that my meta plays. As a Guild player, I know I can't teach someone how to play Zoraida, especially since I've never seen her on the board. I also know that a lot of starting players down have the time, resources, energy, or inclination to devote hours on forums and discord server to learn how to play right out the gate. The least I can do for my small and hard-earned meta is to give them an easy to understand, quick-reference, training-wheels guide to their crews. *edit* Sorry if that felt a bit "ranty". I just wanted to reiterate the purpose of the document and avoid any other comments about how it could be an overly simplistic solution to a highly intricate problem. 6 hours ago, Adran said: I would suggest a 5th level of rating, neutral, to help judge between it being an entry in the chart, and it just not being a combination not looked at. It might not be as useful in the final chart, but it might help people knowing what needs considering. This is an excellent idea! I was initially going to just omit a master's name to show neutrality, but it might be better to color code or highlight. 1 hour ago, Impact UK said: Nice idea, deployment can add to the viability of a scheme or strategy also for a master/keyword. I was thinking about introducing deployment somehow, but couldn't figure out how to fit it in the graph. Admittedly, I'm pretty bad at this kind of stuff. If anyone can figure out an optimal way to include Deployment, let me know! 6 hours ago, le_wahou said: Are you rating the leader or his keyword ? Right now I'm doing keyword, but using the corresponding Master's initials as this takes up less space on the chart. 6 hours ago, le_wahou said: There are some models that should have their own chart : false witness for example is a STRONG model in detonate, lead lined coat is very potent for false claims, etc... I would like to, in the future, expand on this once the Master section is completed. The new list will probably include all versatile models and key models that are worth the extra soul stone, like False Witness. 7 hours ago, Beta said: I'll put the sheet to the test next week at the german nationals *Gulp!* 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amateur Contender Posted October 25, 2019 Author Report Share Posted October 25, 2019 Thank you for all of the suggestions everyone! Keep them coming! I will be working on implementing the changes throughout the day. Also, if there is someone out there who thinks they can do a better job, for the sake of the community, feel free to kick me out and take the reigns! Haha I can't reiterate enough how unqualified I am at this... 😐 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thstringer Posted October 27, 2019 Report Share Posted October 27, 2019 I'm both seeing and hearing that Sonia hates reckoning and turf, and I'm stunned. I like her in both. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yore Huckleberry Posted October 27, 2019 Report Share Posted October 27, 2019 I would say that Lady J has negative synergy with Dig Their Graves on all four strats: 1) Lady J and a few other models don't drop any markers when they kill something. So no corpses to proc it off of. 2) Lady J often strings out way ahead of your crew in terms of having a scheme marker down. 3) Your own units are less likely to die: a Hard-to-Kill Death Marshal can take up to 3 attacks to drop unless a really strong attack hits it first off. So you're contributing fewer corpse markers to the pile in your own field of units where it's easier to drop scheme markers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yore Huckleberry Posted October 27, 2019 Report Share Posted October 27, 2019 @11Anthonyc -- have you considered adding a section to your document about Tech Pieces? For example: 1) Detonate Charges: False Witness (Journalist/Elite) can score this on its own if you drop a third scheme elsewhere to remove for the False Claim requirement (which takes place BEFORE scoring objectives in the end phase) 3) Harness the Ley Line: Again, False Witnesses help abundantly here, as well as Nellie's ability to force enemies to drop scheme markers for you 4) Search the Ruins: False Witnesses 5) Dig Their Graves: Phiona Gage has interesting synergy here because 1) her melee damage improves near a scheme marker and 2) she can lure someone in. So you can drop a marker with someone, push Phiona towards it with Nellie, and have Phiona pull in a target and swing at it, near the scheme marker you need to get DTG started 6) Hold Up Their Forces: Guild Hounds are cheap and fast and can probably score this for you in later activations if you can keep them safe. Death Marshalls are tough and have a low cost, offering many opportunities to target a higher-cost opponent 7) Take Prisoner: Phiona Gage, Jonathan Reichart, and Bernadette Basse all have good pulls. Nellie can slow an enemy and make it charge (or make the prisoner charge and slow other enemies to stop them getting in range to prevent the point). 8 )Power Ritual: Mounted Guards have huge movement capacity with MV 7 and a 5" push quick-action. So does the Pale Rider, who can pseudo-stone defensively, if you're willing to invest 11 points and 2-3 turns into running him to a far corner. 9) Outflank: Pale Rider and Lone Marshal will cheerfully run to the sides for you and rain terrible fire on your opponents. 10) Assassinate: Beaters. This is a crew commitment to kill the enemy leader 11) Deliver a Message: Nellie loves to do this, since Don't Mind Me will overcome engagement-layering as a defense against it, and she'll heal up from taking the interact. Plus ... if this is in the pool, the opponent can't target Nellie with it anyway! 12) Claim Jump: Investigators can use "Stand Back, it's Evidence!" to push ANY model away from a scheme (or corpse/scrap) marker they drop. Drop a scheme on the center for ley lines and double up on Claim Jump? They're a little tough to defend, but you can put attacks vs them at a - by discarding a card, and they have 7 wounds to go through, which is tough to one-shot. Also, the Emissary's a fun choice here because its Greatsword can knock people aside. Don't have the mask? Just put them in a cage and bury them! Now you're alone in the center! 13) Vendetta: There's the standard Effigy->Emissary trick. But some other fun Guild options: Lone Marshal: At 9, he's got a goodly supply of higher-cost targets. And a 14" gun. Want to play another layer deep on the scheme pool? Hire him into a pool with a bunch of death marshals and make the opponent take Vendetta on him if they want it. Good luck finding him in the backfield as he snipes you, supported by heals and focus from the Steward! Death Marshals: Again, these guys just punch above their cost. Austringer: The Skybound Ally upgrade does 1/3/4 damage ... not great ... but it hits ANYTHING up to 14" away, ignoring Line of Sight and plenty of defensive tech. Put a hit into your target, then follow up with a focused Austringer for the first point. Now all you need is for something to kill that model (Lone Marshal?) by the end of the game, and if they want to deny it by killing your figure, they have to come to your backfield. Phiona: At 9 stones, she's your choice if you think you'll have a 10 stone target to play with. She's tanky and can pull her friend in for the dance, and it's easy to set up a scheme marker near her to get her + flips on all her opposed duels. Happy to hear other tech people are thinking of! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
4thstringer Posted October 28, 2019 Report Share Posted October 28, 2019 I've been thinking about the opposite: anti tech pieces. Models you take to deny a certain scheme. Some schemes this doesn't work with. But here's what I've come up with Assassinate: a model with take the hit can make this one really hard, so iirc that's phi, guardian, and guild guard. Also worth considering are heals so domador, Stewie etc. LLC too Scheme marker schemes:. Besides the masters, field reporters are pretty good, undercover reporter are great. Peacekeeper and executioner some too. Investigators. Guild Sarge I guess. Outflank- undercover reporter to teleport that cheap minion out. Thralls can try to blast them away. Traps to wall off a corner. I'm sure I'm missing some. Take prisoner- if you obey the opponent to kill the model, no second point. Not great, but not terrible. Claim jump- a single trap in the middle spot, riotbreakers for a variation in the same theme. Edit: this would take a bunch of traps to wall it off, or one with a high mask to move enemy models out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amateur Contender Posted October 29, 2019 Author Report Share Posted October 29, 2019 Thanks for the continuing replies. I'll spend the day researching and updating when time allows. I'll also work on tech/anti-tech pieces if y'all can get me a list. I know this list will include all versatile pieces and a select few (such as False Witness), but want to keep the selection limited for simplicity's sake (both for myself and new players!). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yore Huckleberry Posted October 29, 2019 Report Share Posted October 29, 2019 Might I suggest a google doc? That would just be an enduring link in the thread, rather than a document you have to take down and re-upload continually. And if you want, you could give permission to edit it to other people who could help you out too. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amateur Contender Posted October 30, 2019 Author Report Share Posted October 30, 2019 17 hours ago, Yore Huckleberry said: Might I suggest a google doc? That would just be an enduring link in the thread, rather than a document you have to take down and re-upload continually. And if you want, you could give permission to edit it to other people who could help you out too. Thank you very much for the suggestion! The word doc is now a google doc. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yore Huckleberry Posted October 30, 2019 Report Share Posted October 30, 2019 1 hour ago, 11Anthonyc said: Thank you very much for the suggestion! The word doc is now a google doc. I'm Yore Huckleberry, sir! ;D 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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