What's Tournament Viable?

[Thedeadclaw]

I've been meaning Neverborn for tournaments just out of familiarity, but between organizing and playing in them for the past 4 months it's become very clear that Ressurectuonists have a much more powerful kit. I'm already regularly placing and prizing out, but I want to start taking 1st at some of these events, so I think I need to relegate Neverborn to casual pickup games for a while.

So!

What I have:

Miss Feasence, with almost all of her keyword filled out. (No Dandies yet, and nothing from The Undying)

McMourning, his 2E kit, Rafkin

Molly, her 2E kit, Night Terrors

Reva, her 2E kit, Restless Spirit

Kirai's 1E box, Lost Love

Effigy/Emissary

Mindless Zombies

Asura Roten

What I'm getting soon:

Crossroads 7

All of Molly I can buy at the Black Friday sale, in their glorious alts

So what I want to know is what I should be focusing on buying now. I expect Kirai should be my next target based on tourney results, and that I should fill her out as quickly as possible. I also plan on grabbing gravediggers soon. But are McMourning and Reva tournament viable? I know they're fun, and I have enjoyed them, but I know condition crews have struggled in serious tournaments this edition, so I'm unsure about them.

Do I absolutely have to buy Yan Lo to be competetive? I hate his lore, and the gross out gore on some of his models, but I'm willing to pick him up anyways if it's necessary to perform well. 

I know the Kirai hire Seamus trick, and I know Molly is best in a lot of pools. I know Archie is OP, and I have a solid grasp on the way to play all of the crews I have.

The only thing I absolutely refuse to do is play Jack Daw. His playstyle is such a feel bad playstyle for the person playing against it that I don't want to make people slog through that. Other than that, hit me with your suggestions for everything I should get to be tournament viable. I probably have a tournament in late November I'll play at and then none till the new year, so don't worry about quantity, I paint a lot each month.

Thanks!!

[newsun]

I find it strange you think Rez > Neverborn

[Thedeadclaw]

Just now, newsun said:

I find it strange you think Rez > Neverborn

Well I think that following both a lot of play myself and data analysis. Right now Ressurectionists are just more consistent at scoring everything but Corrupted Idols, and I'm sure when Gaining Grounds 2020 comes out they'll fix the Zoraida exploit. Neverborn also suffers against a lot of dps heavy crews, especially ranged ones, in scheme/strat pools that don't rely heavily on damage or killing models, since their tanky models aren't generally as good at scheming. In addition, while I like Puppets, Dreamer and Zoraida are the only 2 Neverborn masters with enough power to pull through as strictly better than alternatives in other factions, and I'm not convinced Zoraida isn't better in Bayou. Lucius is best in Guild imo (and I have no interest in playing him), Marcus is powerful but not consistent, and Euripides is too competetively untested for me to feel comfortable taking a gamble on.

Ressurectionists on the other hand have some of the most powerful masters in the game. Seamus isn't good as a leader in most poops, but is a great hire for another master. Molly and Kirai are crazy good. Yan Lo into Reckoning seems incredibly solid, even if he might be better in ten Thunders.

I don't know that Ressurectionists are the right choice for me, but outside of casual play I've found Neverborn lacking, and ultimately whether you think it's weaker or not isn't what I made this thread about. I want to play around and see how Ressurectionists play in a tournament setting, and I wanted to know what the mandatory and recommended crews and models are for that. I don't know how your meta is, but Ressurectionists and Ten Thunders both do very well here, and since I'm looking to try something else anyways I wanted to start there.

[dannydb]

Molly, yanlo, Jack, vonsctook and kirai I would say are our top tier masters. 

 

Molly is a brilliant scheme marker and control crew with prob the best set up to abuse by your side (crooligans can teleport to any other non minion in keyword at start of activation) 

 

Yan lo tanky crew with a load of resserecting of purchased models. Great at pools requiring or aimed at denying kills, yan lo can snowball turn 3 onwards 

 

Jack is jack

 

Vonsctook can give out lots of stunned which seems brutal and can have plenty of card draw. They also have some by your side, but don't quite have the same number of targets as molly

 

Kirai has a lot of aggressive summons who hurt people for hurting them. They also have a fair amount of mobility and a realy well designed risk vs reward summoning set up

[Thedeadclaw]

1 minute ago, dannydb said:

Molly, yanlo, Jack, vonsctook and kirai I would say are our top tier masters. 

Would you recommend Yan Lo or Von Sctook next, after I fill out Kirai and Molly? Are there any versatiles That are must haves?

[newsun]

3 minutes ago, Thedeadclaw said:

Would you recommend Yan Lo or Von Sctook next, after I fill out Kirai and Molly? Are there any versatiles That are must haves?

Dead Rider is good most of the time though you won't hire always. Yan Lo is good next since Manos is a solid piece in keyword for that master.

 

The good doctor is also strong, though I don't have many games with him.

[dannydb]

8 minutes ago, Thedeadclaw said:

Would you recommend Yan Lo or Von Sctook next, after I fill out Kirai and Molly? Are there any versatiles That are must haves?

Vercitile the 2 that stand out are the dead rider and the emissary. Sloth can be good in certain keywords

 

As for out of keyword; Anna, Archie, manos and nurses seen the main 4. Vincent and toshiro are other ones but that tends to be toshiro doesn't suit yan lo's keyword very well. Vincent seems great in theary vs summoners but haven't seen much in practice to support this as summoners these days have very effective plan vs generally 

[Mycellanious]

21 minutes ago, Thedeadclaw said:

Yan Lo into Reckoning seems incredibly solid, even if he might be better in ten Thunders.

I've be seeing the Thunders say that Yan Lo is better is Ressers because you can hire Archie and give him Manos' upgrade

[Thedeadclaw]

3 minutes ago, Mycellanious said:

I've be seeing the Thunders say that Yan Lo is better is Ressers because you can hire Archie and give him Manos' upgrade

Oh yeah? If so I feel even better about trying to main Ressurectionists for now.

[Mycellanious]

Just now, Thedeadclaw said:

Oh yeah? If so I feel even better about trying to main Ressurectionists for now.

Its Archie, but with Regen and Demise Eternal that heals him extra because he discards a card for it...

[dannydb]

I think yanlo is better in ressers due to the archie manos combo and wisper for chaki to better hit the masks she needs for split the soul

[Maniacal_cackle]

What's your meta like? And how competitive?

The best tournament advice is only play crews you have played tons of games with, but I assume you're looking forward and will practice each crew heaps?

I'm soloing Molly at a tournament and am pretty confident, but I imagine there are several levels of competitive play.

Molly is (IMO) fantastic for corrupted idols. She is also great at plant explosives, and TheWrathChilde says Turf War is her best thing. Her crew is good at the majority of the schemes. She is the queen of scheme denial.

I don't know the other masters that well, but get the sense Molly+ Kirai are musts. If doing double master, they also work well together.

I think the edition is too new to rule anything out. Preliminary testing is giving some good results with Toshiro/grave golem/grave digger for me, so I'd recommend testing them in addition to what is listed here.

 

[Thedeadclaw]

2 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

What's your meta like? And how competitive?

The best tournament advice is only play crews you have played tons of games with, but I assume you're looking forward and will practice each crew heaps?

I'm soloing Molly at a tournament and am pretty confident, but I imagine there are several levels of competitive play.

Molly is (IMO) fantastic for corrupted idols. She is also great at plant explosives, and TheWrathChilde says Turf War is her best thing. Her crew is good at the majority of the schemes. She is the queen of scheme denial.

I don't know the other masters that well, but get the sense Molly+ Kirai are musts. If doing double master, they also work well together.

I think the edition is too new to rule anything out. Preliminary testing is giving some good results with Toshiro/grave golem/grave digger for me, so I'd recommend testing them in addition to what is listed here.

 

Meta here is a bit wonky and disparate; one of the best players in the country plays here, and there's a clump of players somewhere around his level. Then there's another cluster of casual players who just play tournaments to get three games in a day. Generally round one is easy enough for me to get the win or at worst draw, and then I face the more serious crews.

Our meta only has 2 arcanists players at all, so I dodge all of that regularly. No guild players at tourneys yet, outside of a guy who decided the game wasn't the right fit for him. Three or four Bayou players, about five Neverborn players, both of those sporadic. Outcasts only have about 5 sporadic players but some of the stronger players are in the faction. Most of the stronger players, and more crews by %, are either Rez or 10t. Kirai, Lynch, Asami, Shenlong, Molly and every once in a while Seamus are the major players, if that makes a difference.

I already do play quite a bit and am testing lists like crazy right now. By the time I was doing tournaments I could essentially goldfish Dreamer, so I want to get a few crews to that before I officially switch, naturally.

Grave diggers are probably one of my next buys, along with the nightmare Molly stuff. I really liked Molly in the Beta and she's the only one of my favorite masters that I still enjoy playing competetively (I don't like Titania anymore tbh, Hamelin is fun but rough to play competetively consistently, and I don't have the critical mass on Tara) so that's a very welcome confirmation.

[Cursed25]

48 minutes ago, dannydb said:

I think yanlo is better in ressers due to the archie manos combo and wisper for chaki to better hit the masks she needs for split the soul

Also Toshiro+gravediggers is a strong combo that gives you 3 excellent mini-tanks for your important models! Sadly Toshiro is almost useless in TT! Also Bone ascendant is easier to benefit from in Ressers because you have more good undead beaters! In TT we only have Izamu who it's worth to target with the upgrade!

[Maniacal_cackle]

8 minutes ago, Cursed25 said:

Also Toshiro+gravediggers is a strong combo that gives you 3 excellent mini-tanks for your important models! Sadly Toshiro is almost useless in TT! Also Bone ascendant is easier to benefit from in Ressers because you have more good undead beaters! In TT we only have Izamu who it's worth to target with the upgrade!

Why is he useless? Toshiro + Grave Digger is strong enough without any other minions, IMO. Is it just that you don't have the spare 16-17 stones for it? (15 + summon stones). Or cards in game? Yan Lo is on my list of masters I'd like to play and will buy when the 3E box comes out, so am curious to learn more about this.

32 minutes ago, Thedeadclaw said:

Our meta only has 2 arcanists players at all, so I dodge all of that regularly. No guild players at tourneys yet, outside of a guy who decided the game wasn't the right fit for him. Three or four Bayou players, about five Neverborn players, both of those sporadic. Outcasts only have about 5 sporadic players but some of the stronger players are in the faction. Most of the stronger players, and more crews by %, are either Rez or 10t. Kirai, Lynch, Asami, Shenlong, Molly and every once in a while Seamus are the major players, if that makes a difference.

If any of them are playing marker crews (such as Zipp), Molly is realllllllllly good against them. Same for condition crews (partially due to Archie, partially due to triggers removing conditions on enemies).

Shenlong is potentially the bane of Ressers going by what people say (I've not played against him yet, but will at my next tournament). I suspect Kirai is the best bet against him, as you don't have Hard to Wound. To the extent that I think a lot of people would heavily base their master pick solely on the possibility of Shenlong if they see someone declaring Ten Thunders (especially if that is a strong player you're facing). I've also theorycrafted Toshiro + Ashigaru against him (that's what initially got me intersted in those models). The Ashigaru take away his abiilty to use his abilities in a clean flow of destruction, and he has to use his abilities somewhat awkwardly (or so says my theorycraft).

If you're looking at second masters, my theorycrafting suggests Kirai is a good second master into Shenlong if you pick another master against TT and they declare Shen. Molly and Kirai are a good combo (Molly draws tons of cards, Kirai eats them with summons).

I'm biased, but I would definitely start with Molly, especially if you're tired of Dreamer. The fun factor is important (the more fun you're having, the faster you'll learn and the more eager you'll be to play again). Dreamer is an inefficient horde. Molly is a refined, super-efficient schemer and anti-schemer, a bit more fragile due to lack of summons, and rewards tight gameplay extremely well.

[Maniacal_cackle]

(Noting of course that Molly is allegedly absolutely terrible against Shenlong).

[Mycellanious]

40 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

 I've also theorycrafted Toshiro + Ashigaru against him (that's what initially got me intersted in those models). The Ashigaru take away his abiilty to use his abilities in a clean flow of destruction, and he has to use his abilities somewhat awkwardly (or so says my theorycraft).

Can you eleborate on your theoryfaux? I dont see how they would be effective, but would learn to love how they would

[Gloomy]

I've been pretty much soloing Kirai at tournaments with good results, for the main reason I know her well and can play much quicker. The Urami are an extremely dynamic keyword that can handle pretty much all the Strats and Schemes. I think they're also the best Ressers to handle that inevitable Shenlong match up.

Downside is its a lot of models to buy and paint as you'll want all the Urami. I use all of them regularly except for the Drowned and the Gaki. Drowned I usually only summon if I don't have a high enough card to summon a Goryo or Shikome. Gaki I only ever summon from Kirai's trigger although you'll probably want to buy them as its an incidental summon with no Vengeance upgrade

[Maniacal_cackle]

9 minutes ago, Mycellanious said:

Can you eleborate on your theoryfaux? I dont see how they would be effective, but would learn to love how they would

So say from the perspective of Molly (the Master I'll be soloing in the tournament).

Shenlong is a horrible destructive force against Molly. He can fly across the board and do a kung fu kick against Molly, and then pummel the crap out of her. If I have an Ashigaru next to her, when he comes flying in with Falling Rave Kick, I can redirect the attack to the Ashigaru. No matter how much damage the falling rave kick does, it can't kill the Ashigaru in one hit (even on a red joker!) 

So instead from ranged he has the option of using The Dragon's Light. If you space the Ashigaru properly, the blast damage won't hit anything else. If he targets Molly with The Dragon's Light, you accept it - it is the devastating triggers on his Fury of the Dawn you want to avoid.

Additionally, extended reach (sometimes) means that Shenlong has to use Falling Rave Kick to engage, he can't charge and use his devastating moves. If for example he engages with falling rave kick, you can redirect to the Ashigaru. He has to do at least 5 damage, or the Ashigaru will still have 2+ wounds left (meaning it will take two more hits to kill it). That means you can juggle redirects to the Ashigaru as necessary to keep Molly alive. If he uses an attack you don't think is a threat to Molly, you let the hit land on Molly.

Again, I've yet to test it. But I suspect that it will change it from "Molly instantly dies in one activation" to "may take him multiple activations/he may have to use lesser models to remove the ashigaru first." But my only goal is to slow down his horrible death-death attacks (especially as he is REALLY going to start hurting if he has to make the same attack more than once. Lethe's caress will add up.

[Granty1982]

Miss feasance/Seamus dosnt work competatively in keyword. Seamus with a mixed list is very very scary though. I take the following;

Seamus

Copycat

Bete

Emissary

Gravedigger

Archie

Then depending on schemes or opponent one of the following;

Manos

Vincent

Asura

[Thedeadclaw]

3 minutes ago, Wintergloom said:

I've been pretty much soloing Kirai at tournaments with good results, for the main reason I know her well and can play much quicker. The Urami are an extremely dynamic keyword that can handle pretty much all the Strats and Schemes. I think they're also the best Ressers to handle that inevitable Shenlong match up.

Downside is its a lot of models to buy and paint as you'll want all the Urami. I use all of them regularly except for the Drowned and the Gaki. Drowned I usually only summon if I don't have a high enough card to summon a Goryo or Shikome. Gaki I only ever summon from Kirai's trigger although you'll probably want to buy them as its an incidental summon with no Vengeance upgrade

Do you not generally take 2 shikome in the list? I've seen that be popular around here and would love to know whether it's actually useful. Jaakuna: yay or nay? Should I hold off on Gaki in favor of other Urami first? I was going to get the Goryo/Seishin repack first and then those for the built in trigger, but yeah, they didn't look like they're ever worth wasting the stones or upgrade on.

My two playtest partners play Bayou (Mah main with Ulix and Ophelia, although they're thinking about using my Zipp and Zoraida for tourneys to give some control crews) and 10T (Shenlong main with every master but Lunch, Yan Lo and Youko), so I expect I'll be using Kirai frequently, especially as I tend to like the minigames the summoners have.

[Thedeadclaw]

5 minutes ago, Granty1982 said:

Miss feasance/Seamus dosnt work competatively in keyword. Seamus with a mixed list is very very scary though. I take the following;

Seamus

Copycat

Bete

Emissary

Gravedigger

Archie

Then depending on schemes or opponent one of the following;

Manos

Vincent

Asura

I've seen that. I still need Archie (hopefully getting at BF sale), Gravedigger and Manos, but have everything else. That's the list I was interested in competetively. Casually I've made Doxies work but... It's not optimal.

[Gloomy]

1 minute ago, Thedeadclaw said:

Do you not generally take 2 shikome in the list? I've seen that be popular around here and would love to know whether it's actually useful. Jaakuna: yay or nay? Should I hold off on Gaki in favor of other Urami first? I was going to get the Goryo/Seishin repack first and then those for the built in trigger, but yeah, they didn't look like they're ever worth wasting the stones or upgrade on.

Shikome depend on Schemes and Strat. I always take 2 in Plant or if I'm taking Schemes that require a lot of movement. But yes first buy should definitely be Goryo/Seishin. I always take 2 Seishin and summon in the Goryos turn 1 n 2 (usually easy to do with The Whisper on Kirai) Gaki you could hold off on and just use a suitable proxy if you happen to get the trigger off.

I've seen a lot of different opinions on Jaakuna but personally I think she's great. I didn't use her in the last tournament and I really missed that stat 7 lure. She's won me quite a few games luring models off of markers or pulling outflankers out of position. I like to keep her within 2" of Kirai quite often as the hazardous can really punish melee beaters who come in, and Kirai can pass attacks onto her. with serene countenance they're suddenly on a neg 

[Cursed25]

8 hours ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

Why is he useless? Toshiro + Grave Digger is strong enough without any other minions, IMO. Is it just that you don't have the spare 16-17 stones for it? (15 + summon stones). Or cards in game? Yan Lo is on my list of masters I'd like to play and will buy when the 3E box comes out, so am curious to learn more about this.

Toshiro in Ressers is very good if you bring corpse generation! (I think gravediggers are the best for this, but Emissary is a nice choice also!)

 

Toshiro in Ten Thunders is almost useless because the only way TT can generate corpses is by taking Asami as second master and summon akaname! Which becomes very costly only for summoning Ashigaru! So in TT Toshiro is an overprice support model most of the time. Yan Lo wants a lot of Ancestors (minimum 2-3) and also some good models to put reliquaries on! This is why I don't think Toshiro is an optimal choice with the Thunders, but in Ressers he becomes way stronger!

[Maniacal_cackle]

1 minute ago, Cursed25 said:

Toshiro in Ressers is very good if you bring corpse generation! (I think gravediggers are the best for this)

Toshiro in Ten Thunders is almost useless because the only way TT can generate corpses is by taking Asami as second master and summon akaname! Which becomes very costly only for summoning Ashigaru! So in TT Toshiro is an overprice support model most of the time. Yan Lo wants a lot of Ancestors (minimum 2-3) and also some good models to put reliquaries on! This is why I don't think Toshiro is an optimal choice with the Thunders, but in Ressers he becomes way stronger!

Ah, sorry, I misread the initial post and thought it said "Toshiro is useless for Yan Lo" and not "Toshiro is useless for Ten Thunders." My mistake!