[New player] How to choose faction/masters and a few dobuts.

[Ogid]

Hi everyone! A friend of mine managed to lure me into this game now that the third edition is starting (I failed the WIP roll miserabily... to be fair I relented that roll :P). I've never played Malifaux before, but I have played a lot of other skirmish games.

I've been browsing through some factions and masters (Neverborn, TT and Outcast, but I want to check all factions before making my choice), and I'm really liking what I'm seeying; the models are gorgeus and the thematic creed and different mechanics are cool. However I have some doubts about how I should plan my purchases and choose my Masters/Faction.

 

Obviously getting more than 1 Master of the same Faction seem optimal; they can share some models, create mixed creeds and not disclosure so much information or even set up a double master creed when I say I'm going to play that faction (which would equal to X master if I only own that one from that faction). However how do you guys planned it? Do you invest heavy in 1 faction or is it viable to get more than 1 faction to be able to play your favourite Masters from different factions? How many masters of 1 particular Faction are enough to have a decen array of creed choices? 2,3,4?

About playstiles, I know all depend on the schemes and strategies of that particular game. But is it important to have at least 1 creed mastered with an strongh ranged play, bubble play (I guess this is the clasical deathball, slow but able to tear appart something that get close) and scheme play (creeds with high mobility or scheme markers shenanigans who focus in objetives and try to ignore the other creed)? Or if you are good enough with 1 or 2 creeds you are able to play all schemes and strategies versus most enemy creeds? Should I plan to build specific creeds versus powerful mechanics? Creeds like Tormented with so many debbufs and strongh static play seem scary to engage with a random crew not tailored versus that for example.

For example, Neverborn catched my eye, but browsing their creeds I see them very focused in close combat with only Lucius being able to do scheme shenanigans (maybe Zoraida could play that game well for being able to scatter her team well); and I don't know if ranged creeds or stronger bubble creeds could abuse that versus them. Their mechanic seem strongh and fun outside of being so CC focused tho: Dreamer can field 2 summoners (or even 3!) and overrun the table or focus in supporting elite models, plus his rigging deck mechanic seem awesome; Titania terrain manipulation seem annoying and her creed is tough as nails; Nephillims seem also dangerous in close combat and the grow mechanic can be used to outscale an adversary; Pandora is very annoying with all her debuffs and might play well in 2 masters creeds; Zoraida seem tricky and powerful with so many stealth and her being able to attack from every angle thanks to the other models. I'm a bit cold about Marcus... he seems versatile but very CC focused and a bit glassy so they are maybe hard countered for other bubble creeds? (And maybe I'm wrong her but the "beast shape" targets for Myranda when playing her from the Neverborn side seem  a bit worse...), maybe I could see a niche for him as a second master for a Zoraida creed...

Outcast on the other hand seem to be a more diverse faction, they got the ranged powerhouses (Freikorps/Bandit), the strongh bubble play (Tormented/Amalgam) and the scheme shenanigans (Bandits, maybe mercenaries too?) covered, with a few extra unique playstiles, the glass cannon and high mobility style of mercenaries, plus Leveticus and Hamelin with their models transforming in others or Tara and her time manipulation and bury shenanigans (this one seem very cool, but a I'm not sure how good/easy to play it would be); plus.

However I don't know if outcast having more different playstiles would be a good reason to set up for them instead of Neverborn (this is just an example, I still have to check all the other factions) or if it could be a legit choice (thinking also in future tournaments) to pick my 2 favourite masters from each faction.

 

Some last questions out of the top of my head, how the tournaments of this game are usually played? You have to go with 1 faction only? With up to a number of Masters regardless of the faction? With a trailer full of models because you can pick whatever you want in each game XD?

And how would you rate Misaki's creed (LastBlossom)? My buddy  got me that creed at a discounted price so I can start playing the game right away (he got Misaki, shang, ototo, 3 torakage, 3 thunder archers and 3 (versatile) Samurai. They seem versatile (decent ranged and CC, able to split if needed), but maybe a bit glassy. I do like the Japanesse theme, but I want to consider all options before settle for any faction/master. Are low damage and high control creed viable in this game, or are there more optimal/safer choices?

Ty in advance for the answers, I guess I'll come up with more questions when I check the rest of the factions...

[Jesy Blue]

So, golden rule has always been "start with what you think is the coolest!" Don't worry about play style, other things in the same faction later on, planning for your eventual purchase of the whole line of models.... Play what looks and viserally feel awesome to your specific tastes. 

Then, once you've done that, then grow.  But if you don't have your roots solid in what you like, you won't grow.  Worry about your future, your local meta, building your own personal creed afterwards.  Start with one crew, enjoy the game here and now.

 

[tmod]

1 hour ago, Ogid said:

Hi everyone! A friend of mine managed to lure me into this game now that the third edition is starting (I failed the WIP roll miserabily... to be fair I relented that roll :P). I've never played Malifaux before, but I have played a lot of other skirmish games.

I've been browsing through some factions and masters (Neverborn, TT and Outcast, but I want to check all factions before making my choice), and I'm really liking what I'm seeying; the models are gorgeus and the thematic creed and different mechanics are cool. However I have some doubts about how I should plan my purchases and choose my Masters/Faction.

 

Obviously getting more than 1 Master of the same Faction seem optimal; they can share some models, create mixed creeds and not disclosure so much information or even set up a double master creed when I say I'm going to play that faction (which would equal to X master if I only own that one from that faction). However how do you guys planned it? Do you invest heavy in 1 faction or is it viable to get more than 1 faction to be able to play your favourite Masters from different factions? How many masters of 1 particular Faction are enough to have a decen array of creed choices? 2,3,4?

About playstiles, I know all depend on the schemes and strategies of that particular game. But is it important to have at least 1 creed mastered with an strongh ranged play, bubble play (I guess this is the clasical deathball, slow but able to tear appart something that get close) and scheme play (creeds with high mobility or scheme markers shenanigans who focus in objetives and try to ignore the other creed)? Or if you are good enough with 1 or 2 creeds you are able to play all schemes and strategies versus most enemy creeds? Should I plan to build specific creeds versus powerful mechanics? Creeds like Tormented with so many debbufs and strongh static play seem scary to engage with a random crew not tailored versus that for example.

For example, Neverborn catched my eye, but browsing their creeds I see them very focused in close combat with only Lucius being able to do scheme shenanigans (maybe Zoraida could play that game well for being able to scatter her team well); and I don't know if ranged creeds or stronger bubble creeds could abuse that versus them. Their mechanic seem strongh and fun outside of being so CC focused tho: Dreamer can field 2 summoners (or even 3!) and overrun the table or focus in supporting elite models, plus his rigging deck mechanic seem awesome; Titania terrain manipulation seem annoying and her creed is tough as nails; Nephillims seem also dangerous in close combat and the grow mechanic can be used to outscale an adversary; Pandora is very annoying with all her debuffs and might play well in 2 masters creeds; Zoraida seem tricky and powerful with so many stealth and her being able to attack from every angle thanks to the other models. I'm a bit cold about Marcus... he seems versatile but very CC focused and a bit glassy so they are maybe hard countered for other bubble creeds? (And maybe I'm wrong her but the "beast shape" targets for Myranda when playing her from the Neverborn side seem  a bit worse...), maybe I could see a niche for him as a second master for a Zoraida creed...

Outcast on the other hand seem to be a more diverse faction, they got the ranged powerhouses (Freikorps/Bandit), the strongh bubble play (Tormented/Amalgam) and the scheme shenanigans (Bandits, maybe mercenaries too?) covered, with a few extra unique playstiles, the glass cannon and high mobility style of mercenaries, plus Leveticus and Hamelin with their models transforming in others or Tara and her time manipulation and bury shenanigans (this one seem very cool, but a I'm not sure how good/easy to play it would be); plus.

However I don't know if outcast having more different playstiles would be a good reason to set up for them instead of Neverborn (this is just an example, I still have to check all the other factions) or if it could be a legit choice (thinking also in future tournaments) to pick my 2 favourite masters from each faction.

 

Some last questions out of the top of my head, how the tournaments of this game are usually played? You have to go with 1 faction only? With up to a number of Masters regardless of the faction? With a trailer full of models because you can pick whatever you want in each game XD?

And how would you rate Misaki's creed (LastBlossom)? My buddy  got me that creed at a discounted price so I can start playing the game right away (he got Misaki, shang, ototo, 3 torakage, 3 thunder archers and 3 (versatile) Samurai. They seem versatile (decent ranged and CC, able to split if needed), but maybe a bit glassy. I do like the Japanesse theme, but I want to consider all options before settle for any faction/master. Are low damage and high control creed viable in this game, or are there more optimal/safer choices?

Ty in advance for the answers, I guess I'll come up with more questions when I check the rest of the factions...

I think generally the question in other games of how you should kill your opponents is less relevant (ie shooting, tanking, glass cannon, etc). In Malifaux the question is more "should I bother to kill my opponent this game?". Don't get me wrong, killing and fighting is a big part of the game (some sya bigger than in 2e), but only when it achieves one of two goals:

1. Does it score me points?
2. Does it deny points for my opponents?

 If you fight your opponent's models without concern for these two goals you will almost always loose. The exception is if you have specific plan that involves a lot of killing (ie, kill all enemy models -> scheme later can work under some specific circumstances). In general Malifaux is by far the most sneaky skirmish gave I've ever played, where better questions to ask is whether you like to win by manipulating odds, deny area access, quickly kill specific models, tank damage, outrun enemies, etc.

With that out of the way I think it's better to start with one keyword you think is cool, and then expand in faction first. With the new keyword hiring it's easier to stay with one keyword, but you might want to have access to a few different playstyles after a while. In Ten Thunders you get a great deck manipulator and sometimes summoner in Jacob Lynch, a denial/manipulation crew in Yuoko, crew support in Shenlong and a summoner in Asami amongst others, and I think all factions probably have access to more than enough tools to win. It is early days though, and when people get more experience some factions will probably emerge as somewhat stronger than others, but player skill level>faction power level in most cases in Malifaux, and you can usually win with most crews. A good starting point is therefore to get a crew you like the look/playstyle of and learn it well before you branch out. Yeah, maybe that master is slightly sub-optimal in some strats/schemes, but it's probably better to play well a sub-optimal crew that you know well than play poorly with an optimal crew that you don't know how to play well. At least in most cases...

2.

[Maniacal_cackle]

If you're brand new, I'd recommend browsing around a bit, then settling on a master to try.

Buy a core box, get a feel for the crew and decide if you want to change master/factions.

I bought three Resser boxes before realising that although I loved one Resser master (Molly), I wanted to try more masters and Neverborn really appeals more.

From a competitive standpoint, I'd probably be fine to just play Molly. But I'd get bored of one master, so am going to try to pick up a few neverborn so I have some flexibility/can cross hire.

[dope_danny]

3rd has a heavy focus on keywords so that usually means a core box and then on average 3 smaller boxes to give you options.

 

Example: Mei Feng's rail crew box has the foundry keword and her ride the rails ability lets them telport between scrap markers rather than move. If you check the foundry keyword the metal gamin and metal golem are foundry and drop scrap markers constantly. So pretty clear case of 'okay this is what i get next' and then theres stuff like Wiilie and Niel Henry that are good but not as good and then stuff like mechnical porkchop and sparks that are less mandatory than those. Most faction sections on here have some thread tier'ing them out and for the most part just pick a faction you like and then check if the master is like a straight melee, summoner, ranged or whatever and its keyword should tell you how to build from there.

 

But bare in mind this isn't like Warhammer or something where you want a large collection of a single force. I've got 3 resser crews, 2 ten thunders, 1 guild and 1 arcanist. Sometimes you want to play a zombie journalist, sometimes a metalbending railworker, sometimes a brothel madam thats secretely an assassin. Its part of the joy of skirmish games, what tone do you fancy playing with today?

[Ogid]

Thanks all for the anwers. For what you say, this game needs lees counterpick than I thought initially... if a bad match up can be winned with cunning play that's a big plus for the game.

And what about the rules at events? is a player allowed to bring masters from different factions? I'll try to pick the master that I like the most, but I'd be willing to pick my second favourite if in that faction there are also some other I like (in case you can only play 1 faction at events).

I have to check the rest. Up to now If I'd have to pick 2 per faction I've looked at:

TT: Misaki (creed seem versatile, and her buried mechanic give her a lot of mobility), Youko/Lynch (some control plus some conditional heavy hitters)

Out: Tara (I like that time bending style), Freikorps (seem tough and versatile)

Nev: Dreamer (a lot of different styles, summoner and Lucid Dream mechanic), Titania/Nekima (both creeds seem scary for direct combat)

3 hours ago, tmod said:

crew support in Shenlong

That's funny XD. I thought Shenlong was more focused in wrecking face than in support (I can see some potential in Low River style with his 2 students healing like crazy, Wandering River to reposition, or some transfer Chi shenanigans tho), but the monk seems able to engage almost anything in close combat. Drunken Kung Fu seems amazing versus all those "Hard to wound", "Serene Counterance" and alike; and High River Style enable him versus other kind of defenses.

Is he used more in a suportish role?

[thatlatinspeakingguy]

Are you sure you've never played Malifaux before? Because you sound very informed 😉 As for Shenlong, I think tmod wanted to say that his keyword offers a lot in terms of support, not that Shenlong is a supportive master (he definitely can support his crew, but at the same time he likes to be supported to maximize his offensive powers).

Usually, you have to declare a single faction during a tournament. The only exception I am aware of is Trinity: you play three different masters in three different factions (or three different factions only, I am not sure about that).

[tmod]

59 minutes ago, Ogid said:

Thanks all for the anwers. For what you say, this game needs lees counterpick than I thought initially... if a bad match up can be winned with cunning play that's a big plus for the game.

And what about the rules at events? is a player allowed to bring masters from different factions? I'll try to pick the master that I like the most, but I'd be willing to pick my second favourite if in that faction there are also some other I like (in case you can only play 1 faction at events).

I have to check the rest. Up to now If I'd have to pick 2 per faction I've looked at:

TT: Misaki (creed seem versatile, and her buried mechanic give her a lot of mobility), Youko/Lynch (some control plus some conditional heavy hitters)

Out: Tara (I like that time bending style), Freikorps (seem tough and versatile)

Nev: Dreamer (a lot of different styles, summoner and Lucid Dream mechanic), Titania/Nekima (both creeds seem scary for direct combat)

That's funny XD. I thought Shenlong was more focused in wrecking face than in support (I can see some potential in Low River style with his 2 students healing like crazy, Wandering River to reposition, or some transfer Chi shenanigans tho), but the monk seems able to engage almost anything in close combat. Drunken Kung Fu seems amazing versus all those "Hard to wound", "Serene Counterance" and alike; and High River Style enable him versus other kind of defenses.

Is he used more in a suportish role?

Most tournaments are single faction, a fra are single Master, but it's all up to the organisers. Most tournaments are mostly based on Gaining Grounds, the official tournament document, but most make adjustments. I'd start with one master with some in-keyword expansions, maybe a versatile model or two (effigies/emissaries seems to be pretty decent across most keywords in most factions). When you're proficient with your first master, buy a second one in the same keyword, and save some money due to already owning some versatile and out of keyword models.

Then, when you get to know the game more, consider changing things up with a secondary faction. Myself, I started with two crews in two different factions so I had a crew to lend to others. Things snowballed, and I've got everything released since a little before M2e except Basse... Gotta catch em all! :-)

43 minutes ago, thatlatinspeakingguy said:

Are you sure you've never played Malifaux before? Because you sound very informed 😉 As for Shenlong, I think tmod wanted to say that his keyword offers a lot in terms of support, not that Shenlong is a supportive master (he definitely can support his crew, but at the same time he likes to be supported to maximize his offensive powers).

Usually, you have to declare a single faction during a tournament. The only exception I am aware of is Trinity: you play three different masters in three different factions (or three different factions only, I am not sure about that).

Um, yeah, um, that's right, that's exactly what I meant... :-p

There is a tiny, teenie possibility that I might be stuck in M2e mentality, where Shenlong was more of a support master. I might even be possible that I haven't gotten around to playing Shenlong at all since the beta...  🙄

[Ogid]

4 hours ago, thatlatinspeakingguy said:

Are you sure you've never played Malifaux before? Because you sound very informed 😉 

Usually, you have to declare a single faction during a tournament. The only exception I am aware of is Trinity: you play three different masters in three different factions (or three different factions only, I am not sure about that).

Hehe, thanks man! But I'm a total rookie, I have played simmilar games tho. so with only reading the cards and the rules I kind of know more or less how each creed should feel.

3 hours ago, tmod said:

Most tournaments are single faction, a fra are single Master, but it's all up to the organisers. Most tournaments are mostly based on Gaining Grounds, the official tournament document, but most make adjustments. I'd start with one master with some in-keyword expansions, maybe a versatile model or two (effigies/emissaries seems to be pretty decent across most keywords in most factions). When you're proficient with your first master, buy a second one in the same keyword, and save some money due to already owning some versatile and out of keyword models.

Then, when you get to know the game more, consider changing things up with a secondary faction. Myself, I started with two crews in two different factions so I had a crew to lend to others. Things snowballed, and I've got everything released since a little before M2e except Basse... Gotta catch em all! :-)

Ok, so usually 1 faction in tournaments... then I'll try to settle for one than I really like at least 3 masters. Ty for the info guys. Where I can find those Gaining ground rules btw?

Hehe, that can happens when you like a game XDD.

3 hours ago, tmod said:

Um, yeah, um, that's right, that's exactly what I meant... :-p

There is a tiny, teenie possibility that I might be stuck in M2e mentality, where Shenlong was more of a support master. I might even be possible that I haven't gotten around to playing Shenlong at all since the beta...  🙄

XD Ok, so they changed his style from M2 to M3, that makes sense. I just wanted to be sure, he is versatile but it's not as resilient as other masters, so he could be played as a backliner too.

Btw talking about shenlong, an interaction I'm not sure if it's legal but that seem awesome: Can terracota warriors (versatile) copy the revitalize tactical action? It's a tactical action of the target, but it's not printed in his card but gained by an upgrade so not sure if they can copy that or not. If they are able then the healing output of that creed can be really high (3 terracota + 2 Aspiring + Some LowRiver); and the terracota soldiers can be reused to get some of the offensive monks back on their feet if the player get a high Mask card in the hand (which may be combed with the Yasunori's Revel in chaos to cicle hand because monks seem bad at it)

[tmod]

26 minutes ago, Ogid said:

Hehe, thanks man! But I'm a total rookie, I have played simmilar games tho. so with only reading the cards and the rules I kind of know more or less how each creed should feel.

Ok, so usually 1 faction in tournaments... then I'll try to settle for one than I really like at least 3 masters. Ty for the info guys. Where I can find those Gaining ground rules btw?

Hehe, that can happens when you like a game XDD.

XD Ok, so they changed his style from M2 to M3, that makes sense. I just wanted to be sure, he is versatile but it's not as resilient as other masters, so he could be played as a backliner too.

Btw talking about shenlong, an interaction I'm not sure if it's legal but that seem awesome: Can terracota warriors (versatile) copy the revitalize tactical action? It's a tactical action of the target, but it's not printed in his card but gained by an upgrade so not sure if they can copy that or not. If they are able then the healing output of that creed can be really high (3 terracota + 2 Aspiring + Some LowRiver); and the terracota soldiers can be reused to get some of the offensive monks back on their feet if the player get a high Mask card in the hand (which may be combed with the Yasunori's Revel in chaos to cicle hand because monks seem bad at it)

Don't have the cards easily available, so I'll let someone who knows what they're taking about answer those specifics. I don't know if Gaining Grounds 2019 is still available on the website; the current version is meant for M2e. But there will most definitely come a new one in the winter. But I'm sure you'll find it if you google "Gaining Grounds 2019". The document contains some general guidelines that have been basically unchanged since the stone age (hence the expectation about how they will be) as well as a calendar based rotation of objectives and an alternate set of stats and/or schemes that supersede/supplement those in the rulebook. The GG schemes/strats change subtly every year, hence keeping the game fresh. The general guidelines (proxy rules, rules for using only painted miniatures, etc) stay the same, making things predictable. Note that the guidelines in Gaining Grounds are just that, guidelines, and most tournaments seem to be a little more relaxed than gaining grounds (especially with proxies, but sometimes also painting standards and other things)...

"(0) Welcome to Malifaux", by the way

[Ogid]

10 hours ago, tmod said:

"(0) Welcome to Malifaux", by the way

Thanks! Also very useful info, I'll check the 2018 GG just to get some idea on how it's played.

10 hours ago, tmod said:

Don't have the cards easily available, so I'll let someone who knows what they're taking about answer those specifics.

I'll leave an image with the relevant cards here in case someone can clear that doubt: Can the terracota warrior mimic the Revitalize tactical action*? 

*When Shenlong have the style attached.

 

[thatlatinspeakingguy]

1 hour ago, Ogid said:

Can the terracota warrior mimic the Revitalize tactical action*?

It can.

11 hours ago, tmod said:

"(0) Welcome to Malifaux", by the way

That zero is no longer understandable for new players

[Maniacal_cackle]

17 hours ago, Ogid said:

Thanks all for the anwers. For what you say, this game needs lees counterpick than I thought initially... if a bad match up can be winned with cunning play that's a big plus for the game.

I'm new ish to the game, but my impression is counterpicking is HUGE (edit: at the competitive level. For casual play, you can get by with virtually any basic crew, and skill will be the big determinant).

But not in the master/crew sense. In the individual model sense (think Magic the Gathering sideboards if you've played that).

You'll have your core models that you use most games, your niche models you use for specific strategy/scheme combinations, and occasionally some models that just really boost a matchup.

But to do this, you don't really need a whole faction. With ressers, I basically would need to buy Molly's keyword stuff + another 5-8 models or so, and I think I'd be set for (almost) anything. I could run multiple masters/crews, but it is the niche models that I personally think will be more relevant (especially as it is hard to perfect your gameplay; you can't be an expert at every crew in your faction).

[Ogid]

40 minutes ago, Maniacal_cackle said:

I'm new ish to the game, but my impression is counterpicking is HUGE (edit: at the competitive level. For casual play, you can get by with virtually any basic crew, and skill will be the big determinant).

But not in the master/crew sense. In the individual model sense (think Magic the Gathering sideboards if you've played that).

Ah ok, so one master can build a team to adapt to the style of an enemy master, it's not needed to switch to another master... I think I'm starting to get it! Ty!

[tmod]

4 hours ago, thatlatinspeakingguy said:

That zero is no longer understandable for new players

I'm aware. I don't particularly care for the change, but not that big an issue for me. Left if here anyway, sort of like an Easter egg. Maybe I shouldn't, but couldn't resist...

[Jesy Blue]

Besides, it's hard to type lightning bolt....

[ezramantis]

I am a player with precious little disposable income. As such, I started playing with the 1st ed rulebook and proxy models. My brother and I tried every master we thought was cool this way until we settled on what we wanted to actually invest in.

Now 1st ed had FAR fewer models than M3e but I still do this with new players. I make paper proxies so they can try masters they like. Every one of them has quickly chosen a master and been happy. Even something as simple as a 30/40/50mm flat token with a picture on it lets ya try stuff out.

I will also say that choosing a theme you like goes a long way. Even when my masters and models were considered underpowered in M2e I still loved playing them because of the narrative that existed in my mind.

[Ogid]

After going through almost all the creeds I've settled for Neverborn, starting with The Dreamer (looking forward to get the september boxes!).

The new scuplts are amazing and I like his fluff. Mechanically it seem a really versatil creed with good punch, decent mobility and snowballing mechanics (lucid dreams + summons). I also like the synergies with puppets for extra shenanigans and list configurations; and the fact that you can include 3 summoners in the creed is amazing 😍; it's a shame there is no scrap generator in neverborn tho :/.

This creed lacks a bit of raw resilience and ranged firepower, but I can live without these. Bonus point: I also liked Pandora and a few of the models of this creed (Teddy and the Carver) are also WOE/can be hired without the +1, so i'll have an easy time expanding to my second master.

This wasn't an easy choice. I liked a lot of other Masters and Factions; I could have choosen TT, Out or Arc easily, and some of the Res mechanic were also quite cool: Tara, VonSchill, Shenlong, Misaki, Mei, Sandeep, McMourning or Kirai were other masters I considered... but at the end the dreamer was the one  

Thanks everyone for the feedback!

[ebolazaire]

On 8/9/2019 at 3:10 PM, Jesy Blue said:

Besides, it's hard to type lightning bolt....

 but so easy to click on!