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Siwy

Gibbering Spam

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So i've been reading and thinling alot.

Lets say you have a 2 commander list:

Horomatangi (asset x y z)

Frenzy ( relict of ancient malifaux + asset x)

2x Karkinoi 

2x Speckled crawlers

6x Devouring Eel

Now here is the tricky sequence. First turn both Karkinoi take focused effort for reinforcement token (+1av for actions) and spawn as many eggs as possible.

Next you use Spawning Moon strategem to summon additional Speckled crawlers from one of the summoned eggs.

Horomatangi casts Bellow of Command twice on two Speckled Crawlers for two reinforcement tokens each.

Frenzy casts Healing Magic three times (on Speckled Crawlers or Devouring Eels. Doesn'tmatter)

Each Speckled Crawler squad eats Egg for glory (and maybe additional reinforcment tokens) and take focussed effort for... ofcourse reinforcment token.

Now if you deploy all your fire teams corrwctly, all your Devouring Eels (each with one reinforcement token already) should be able at the start of their activations:

-'steal' (tasty snack) 1-2 reinforcment tokens from 1-2 Speckled Crawlers squads. 

-devour one Egg (or wichever fireteam) for glory

-and summon new Devouring Eel (all these conditions take place at the same time so you as the acting player may decide to take them in this order).

-Then maybe focused effort for... (freshly summoned Eels also!)

Maths: 

You generate between 3 (if you are very unlucky) and 13 reinforcment tokens on Speckled Crawlers wich you distribute succesivly to Devouring Eels (they start with 1 and maybe will get some from devouring Eggs. 

With a little bit luck and cheating you should be able to summon 6 Devouring Eels (and ofcourse Speckled Crawlers!) on first turn of the game. Thats already 22 extra points in your company. You probably didn't do pretty much anything else besides that, but its fine for me.

Turn 2: now your devouring Eels have 2 reinforcment tokens each. Your Speckled Crawlers generate 6 additional reinforcment tokens for free (endless [ability]). You may spend tactics token to summon devoured Eggs from the Turn 1. 

At this point it gets a little bit awkward. But ofcourse it is even easier to summon next wave of Devouring Eels and slowly start marching towards enemy. You have wasted 1,5 Turn but now have about over doubled the size of your original company.

So yeah...

Tell me please that i've read something wrong or didn't catch the timing on these actions.

PS: my first post! Yaaaay!

 

 

 

 

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Looks about right!  Don't forget that unlike in Malifaux you can start scoring turn 1, so while this does set you up for a solid late game it does mean you're going to be behind in VP for a while.  Just having the Frenzy and Horo throw a lot of RT's onto the Eels slows down your company less and it still should let you spike up your # of Eels right away.

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I think this may fall under the "really cool idea, but ultimately not a viable tactic to win games". I could be wrong, but either way, good catch!! This is really neat 

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Along the same lines...  I am disappointed there are not spam hiring restrictions.  I would like to at the very least see a global rule hard cap of hiring no more than 3 of any one unit.

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Still waiting on my KS stuff and the only rules I've seen was at the top of this year so this may have changed. (big grain of salt here) If your opponent has a low unit count wouldn't you be in a situation where the turn ends before you even get to start summoning new eels? Last time I saw the rules if an opponent is out activated, they would pass, then pass again to end the turn. Could be bad if they have only 6ish units when you're starting with 12 (and adding another with spawning moon right out of the gate)

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31 minutes ago, Jokerohki said:

If your opponent has a low unit count wouldn't you be in a situation where the turn ends before you even get to start summoning new eels? Last time I saw the rules if an opponent is out activated, they would pass, then pass again to end the turn.

Each player has to pass for the turn to end, either player can keep passing without it occurring if the other player doesn't do it.

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I would have thought the biggest problem with the list is buying that many devouring eels. I've no idea how viable this is, not sure how good devouring eels are for claiming VPS

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I personaly know 2 friends that are prepared to buy such a list (with more than enough of reserve models) only to win every game. 

I assure you. Your opponent scores something first and maybe second turn. But then they will be overwhelmed and all objectives will be claimed by hordes player. 

In my opinion, it should be nerfed before its to late. 

Some people will buy 30 Eels and spoil the fun of playing the game. Everyone will complain how IMBA it is. Then it will be nerfed and people will be left with hundreds of $ worth of worthless models. IMHO not a good company policy.

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I've not played yet, so this is just from what I've read, but in effect you have lots of 1 wound eels. They have a high armour, and Df but that's it.

I haven't got my rules yet, and don't like reading electronic rules, so I'm not sure on the timing, but I would certainly check that you can use at the start of your activation glory abilities when you didn't start your activation in Glory.

You could be right, and its hugely overpowered, but its also possible that on the table it ends up not being as survivable as it looks due to damage effects. After all I think each fire team gets to take its own shot, so a 3 squad shooting team could kill 3 eels in 1 go. (or at least stop 3 eels splitting that turn) I remember looking at the rail gunner power levels previously, and deciding that they ended up being too fragile to hire huge numbers of and expect to win because you can't kill as fast as they die to a shooting squad, which is able to re-enforce and return.

It might also be that you are spending most of your tactics tokens on this engine, so you don't get to draw enough cards.  

 

Have you actually tried it out on the table yet?

 

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The thing about the cheap spammable models is that bringing a handful of them is strong, but as soon as you can no longer reliably keep them topped up with the resources they need (RT's for Eels, ST's for Rhinos, etc) then they fall apart.  It's why the 16 Rhino list, while hilarious, is pretty bad even though their natural durability should make it strong because all it takes is one hit and it's gone.

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Well, the thing with Eels is that they arent cheap squishy fireteams. They have commanderlike AVs. And can also prevent dmg with RTs ( wich they start game with. At first turn they can easliy be deployed in cover (tide pools or behind other fire teams) and ofcourse dont forget the rng. Between deployment zones there is mininum 24" no mans land. If your opponent clmpany has really good chance to rush forward and hit your Eels (twice to kill each) DF:7 + cover at long range than... you can always deploy a little bit further (common wargaming practice). 

As it comes to hitting Vunerable Eels (without RTs). Its quite simple. Activation chain. Before you activate your Eels you have already activated everything in your army (hell, even couple of eggs!). When your opponent has finished his activations, the spawning starts. And at the beginning of turn 2 your Eels have 2 RTs each (prevention prevention!)

 

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6 hours ago, Siwy said:

I personaly know 2 friends that are prepared to buy such a list (with more than enough of reserve models) only to win every game. 

I assure you. Your opponent scores something first and maybe second turn. But then they will be overwhelmed and all objectives will be claimed by hordes player. 

In my opinion, it should be nerfed before its to late. 

Some people will buy 30 Eels and spoil the fun of playing the game. Everyone will complain how IMBA it is. Then it will be nerfed and people will be left with hundreds of $ worth of worthless models. IMHO not a good company policy.

Now I understand the Guy Who has bought oromatangui and 3 devouring eels

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16 hours ago, retnab said:

Each player has to pass for the turn to end, either player can keep passing without it occurring if the other player doesn't do it.

Ahh ok. Eels could be a problem. Really need that rule book! On that note, a question: Do pinned tokens remove reinforcement tokens?

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Yes they do.

Hordes player can achieve this pretty easly (squall strategem), others have some triggers wich are not so easliy achieveable.

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So i see many powerful possibilities with this 2 commanders (frenzy with healing magic *3 and toothlaces neckles and horomatangi with his bellow of command) in hordes company. 

It is obvious that this alligence benefits the most of RTs. Yet sometimes it is very easly abused (thanks to multiple speckled crawlers [wich are must have and are cheap as fü€k]) 

As commander choices, Stormsiren is very cool indeed. But these token festival (against the opponent can do nothing against) is pretty much overwhelming.

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It very could could be OP. But until I see it on the table I'm not terribly worried. Theorycrafting can only get you so far. 

8 hours ago, Siwy said:

Some people will buy 30 Eels and spoil the fun of playing the game. Everyone will complain how IMBA it is. Then it will be nerfed and people will be left with hundreds of $ worth of worthless models. IMHO not a good company policy.

If that is what happens, I don't blame Wyrd one bit. Erratas have to happen to keep the game healthy, it should be expected. If someone jumps on the bandwagon and spends hundreds of dollars on a flavor of the week army, that's on them when it gets nerfed. 

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Want to take bets about Regeneration being errat’d to “reduce damage by X (to a minimum of 0)”?

 

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Still trying to poke holes in this since I have 3 eels coming my way so far :P...

This might not be too bad if every faction has a good counter for this. As a hordes player I'd definitely pack Squall and pull the crawlers out of formation with Siren's Call. Not sure about the other factions but I think everyone but Hordes have some reliable area damage effects, yes? Could be bad before the eels get their reinforcement tokens.

On top of that isn't there a mission strategy where you gain vp by killing enemy units? I could imagine focus firing on each eel (even with a few RTs) until dead will give you at least one or two VPs a turn.

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Eel spam, while good, relies on synergy to get going.  2-3 Eels are, weirdly enough, going to be more survivable overall than 4-6.  Remember they're relying on their good Df and expending RT's to negate damage, so someone like Maggie who can force a unit to dump all of their tokens (or really just the Empire in general for their PT output) can just mow them down.

As was mentioned above, definitely put it on the board first.  There's probably a sweet spot as far as the # of Eels you bring in, but I don't think "use ALL the Eels!" is going to be a winning strategy.

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On a related note, is the Gibbering Horde stratagem card "Cut Them Off" limited to a 3" range for grabbing enemy RT tokens?

If it isn't (or even if it does have a 3" range and you're fast enough), that seems like it creates a losing scenario for Eel Spam when facing another Gibbering Hordes player.

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7 minutes ago, solkan said:

On a related note, is the Gibbering Horde stratagem card "Cut Them Off" limited to a 3" range for grabbing enemy RT tokens?

If it isn't (or even if it does have a 3" range and you're fast enough), that seems like it creates a losing scenario for Eel Spam when facing another Gibbering Hordes player.

It is limited to 3".

Yet, it is a little bit tricky to use becouse you have to already in 3" when unit activates. 

 

Overall agreed, the other hordes player when he knows whats going on with Eels can prepare himself for this type of play. But its all just speculation as said earlier. On paper things seem to apear a little bit different compared to the actual gaming expirience.

 

As it comes to the other factions, they have strategems to deal with large amount of units (activate experimental systems or artillery strike) yet they are relativly easily avoided by Eels (RTs, high SP)

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2 hours ago, Siwy said:

It is limited to 3".

Yet, it is a little bit tricky to use becouse you have to already in 3" when unit activates. 

 

Overall agreed, the other hordes player when he knows whats going on with Eels can prepare himself for this type of play. But its all just speculation as said earlier. On paper things seem to apear a little bit different compared to the actual gaming expirience.

 

As it comes to the other factions, they have strategems to deal with large amount of units (activate experimental systems or artillery strike) yet they are relativly easily avoided by Eels (RTs, high SP)

I think you're looking at "How does a player deal with this after it's done its thing?".  Consider the situation from a different perspective.

The Other Player has 6 tactics at the start of the turn (because it's a two commander game).  What popular stratagem cards are they going to have in their deck for their own purposes that they can use to foil the engine?

For Earth forces, "Behind Enemy Lines" (5 tactics tokens) produces a 6 Script monkey wrench.  Used by Abyssinia, a summoned unit of Bosotho Cavalry in the Eel Factory's deployment zone and you're looking at potentially six Pinned Tokens put on that engine to negate the RT tokens needed by that engine.   (7 vs Wp2 on those Speckled Crawlers, even with cover that's 7 vs 4, putting the odds in favor of stripping the RTs off the Speckled Crawlers).  Or just summon something to kill whatever's easy, like the eggs you just summoned.

For Burning Man, I don't know.  It seems to me that one of the puzzles a Burning Man player has to consider is "If I had a turn all to my own, could I flip my entire army to glory?"  "Oh, you set up an eel factory.  Cool, cool.  That's neat.  While you did that, I got my ECB on the table corners, I've got portals where I want them, and here's a fully powered rhino to take out one of your commanders."

Because especially in a two commander game I think Burning Man can be played aggressively where in the first turn, they spend 4 points to drop a portal in your deployment zone and just start killing stuff.  I mean, it's perfectly crazy for a BM Horomatangi to just get thrown suicidally out of a portal in front of your deployment zone (or inside it) and have it use Bellow of Command twice to dump pinning tokens on the Eel Factory; if they're planning on spending 5 tactics tokens and a VP to respawn it later using Time Paradox.  And even if they didn't know what you were doing, they might do that anyway.  :Burning::)

The Gibbering Hordes have a Squall Stratagem that puts a Pinned Token on every unit in the Eel Factory.  And if you try to use the eels from the factory for anything, it still seems like Cut Them Off played strategically makes your eels dead on the table as they get their reinforcements stolen.

And then the rest of the player's stuff is scoring VP, gaining tokens, getting free cards from rail gunners, or whatever.

But for what it's worth, I'm pretty sure that my brother got Devouring Eel -markers- in his Devouring Eel boxes, so if someone really wanted to try this out they probably don't need to rush out and buy half a dozen boxes--just make up a set of 50mm devouring eel markers.  Is someone really going to say "Those markers are fine for -summoned- eels, but you need real models for the ones you hire."?  And the precedent from Gaining Grounds is that copies or printouts of the cards are fine.

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3 hours ago, solkan said:

But for what it's worth, I'm pretty sure that my brother got Devouring Eel -markers- in his Devouring Eel boxes, so if someone really wanted to try this out they probably don't need to rush out and buy half a dozen boxes--just make up a set of 50mm devouring eel markers.  Is someone really going to say "Those markers are fine for -summoned- eels, but you need real models for the ones you hire."?  And the precedent from Gaining Grounds is that copies or printouts of the cards are fine.

Wow! Token for summoned models included in box!? Thats really innovative policy. Ofcourse you can argue that it spoils the fun of playing miniature games without miniatures. But man oh man. First time i see an legal example of such a summoning resolution. Big plus for wyrd!

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That is what we call "Dick Swinging Confidence". Wyrd is betting you will like the game enough to want to buy more even with the tokens. 

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13 hours ago, Siwy said:

Wow! Token for summoned models included in box!? Thats really innovative policy. Ofcourse you can argue that it spoils the fun of playing miniature games without miniatures. But man oh man. First time i see an legal example of such a summoning resolution. Big plus for wyrd!

Yeah, that blew my mind too. I think Aaron created a masterpiece on so many levels.

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