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How to deal with Sandeep


raderk

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Is there anything we can do with Sandeep? In our competetive meta he completly dominates, I've tried Lilith (least amount of succeses), Pandora (voices with promising but still uphill battle) and Collodi (imo closest to win yet still i wasnt in favourable position). The worst thing is that sandeeps in our meta can even show their list before game, it makes little to no difference.

Sandeep, arcane res. seize the day, summoning (the one with gamin who gives + to attacks)
3 mages (one with well rehearsed)
myranda with IE (in my opinion 4 cards draw and free +1 ss enforcer is just insane, the most op thing in the whole game!)
raptor (he bites 1st turn and sets up card for sandeep, then he flies and be generally annoying)
captain with his upgrade

i might forget a few details but its the same everygame, not depending on schemes, strat on table. Ive seen some changes rarely (another summoning for symbols for authority) but general idea to outactivate me first turn place mage and furious cast me to the ground with myranda/tiger on other flanc is working like hell. I'm currently at position where my opponent can show me his list before the game, and it would not help a bit.

 

And its not only one player, in our last huge event in top3 there was 2 sandeeps (fixed master) and 3 sandeeps in top10 (around 50 players, 5 ARs, 4 of them were fixed sandeep).

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That crew looks like it has 3 hard hitters with Wp5 or less (Sabertooth and Captain at 5, Banasuva at 4). I’d think that Collodi could wreak all sorts of havoc against that.

The Gamin that gives + flips to attack can’t attack, needs to be within 3 inches and LoS of the model using the bonus, and Sandeep can’t summon a replacement for it as long as it is alive. Getting it out of position after it has activated in a turn or yanking it across the board with Lilith and just sitting on it can make the attacks coming from the mages easier to deal with.

All but one of the Mages have a 1 inch engagement range and their only close attack is a zero action. If you tie them up with a cheap model with a 2 inch engagement range you can keep them from being able to furious cast. The mages need to discard a card to reduce damage by 2 with Temporary Sheilding. If you attack them while your opponent is down on cards then you may be forcing your opponent to choose between damage reduction and a card they were saving.

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All of low Wp models have high wound count so its hard to cancel them out with just collodi. Sure i can kill one model per turn, but banasuva can be summoned again, and losing tiger/captain doesnt hurt that much since he can furious cast me to oblivion with mages.

So what if gamin cant attack? Plus to the attack actions is very strong, and killing that gamin cost me ap which should be spent killing dangerous models

You cant lock that models too easliy since sandeep can lure your model, and if needed theres always that place trick model can copy from sandeep

Opponent is very rarely low on cards due to the myranda and arcane reservoir

Nekima dies instantly when thrown to the middle of enemy crew (its just 12 wounds and stones)

Collodi is probably the best option, but hes slightly outclassed on dmg output, activations, mobility and interact actions. So i lose the exhaustion war

Pandora needs a crow to paralyze you know that? And with depression its too hard to make her as mobile as it would be required to be useful.

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I was playing against similar crew in last few weeks, and from my experience I can say - don't waste time on Gamins, kill other models. Killing Cerberus or Captain is probably more desired than killing mages, as he can Airburst three models per activation or can charge a beater with his Relic Hammer, while the cat can deal HUGE amount of damage due to three-headed and maul trigger.

Personally I think that Titania with her Royal Indignation limited upgrade could be nice option against that Sandeep crew, as she would reduce damage from all summoned gamins (including Banasuva) by 2 and reduce damage caused by mages by 1. With An Audience With The Queen and Behold My Glory as two remaining upgrades and Hooded Raider and Emissary as a beaters (just lbe careful about Captain) she could be tough opponent for the Arcanist.

My other idea is taking Doppleganger for her ability to cheat initiative as well as Iggy for Incite and go first with two-three models in a crucial turn. Also, Voices Pandora with Rile Them Up seems like a good answer for the Mages - don't waste time for paralyzing stuff, just kill them with her attack that may not be reduced. 

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24 minutes ago, raderk said:

All of low Wp models have high wound count so its hard to cancel them out with just collodi. Sure i can kill one model per turn, but banasuva can be summoned again, and losing tiger/captain doesnt hurt that much since he can furious cast me to oblivion with mages.

So what if gamin cant attack? Plus to the attack actions is very strong, and killing that gamin cost me ap which should be spent killing dangerous models

You cant lock that models too easliy since sandeep can lure your model, and if needed theres always that place trick model can copy from sandeep

Opponent is very rarely low on cards due to the myranda and arcane reservoir

Nekima dies instantly when thrown to the middle of enemy crew (its just 12 wounds and stones)

Collodi is probably the best option, but hes slightly outclassed on dmg output, activations, mobility and interact actions. So i lose the exhaustion war

Pandora needs a crow to paralyze you know that? And with depression its too hard to make her as mobile as it would be required to be useful.

Collodi doesn't need to kill them, he just needs to make them slow and steal their AP. He can spend 4 ap to deal anywhere from 8-16 damage and steal 4 of your opponents AP in the process. Mages can't furious cast at you effectively if you don't let them. Use cover, engage them, block their LoS. Sandeep's only way to move your models is a 6" push towards him. If one of his models is in base contact with you he can't move you in a 180 degree arc. The aura of positives to attack actions is pretty small. Just don't be near it, or kill the things that would benefit from it. Nekima doesn't die instantly if she's engaging all the mages, the cereberus is in your crew, so only the Captain, Sandeep and Banasuva to try and do it. Imbued Energies is a 1 time card draw. Neverborn can very easily match Arcane Resovoir card draw. If you're getting significantly outactivated with Collodi, something is wrong. He can get to 9 while taking Nekima and the Hooded Rider with upgrades on both. That's over half a crew, and still at 9 activations. If you fill up with minions and puppets instead you should have literally 0 activation problems.

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I think you're being too critical mate, the other two have raised some really good points.

Firstly, who's to say Collodi needs to kill the crew? Built in slow, ability to steal AP, turn his crew against him, dictate his crews efficiency. Plus, doing damage overtime is still effective, just because Collodi might not outright kill 2 models or even 1 model a turn, he can still cause a lot of damage.

It seems like dropping Sandeep is strong, if summoning is the problem, remove them from the equation. Sure Nekima will die, but it will take a dedicated attack, save a high card and a stone to help out. As you say, killing the Gamin will use up AP, but so will killing Nekima, apply early pressure and soak up his hand, a good hand can only get you so far, it's how you spend those cards that counts.

In terms of Pandora, CA6/7 against WP 5/4, means that even something like a 10 of crows could lead to a paralyzed enemy model. If Pandora needs a model paralyzed, she can stone, shutting a key model down for a turn is worth it.

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44 minutes ago, raderk said:

All of low Wp models have high wound count so its hard to cancel them out with just collodi. Sure i can kill one model per turn, but banasuva can be summoned again, and losing tiger/captain doesnt hurt that much since he can furious cast me to oblivion with mages.

So what if gamin cant attack? Plus to the attack actions is very strong, and killing that gamin cost me ap which should be spent killing dangerous models

You cant lock that models too easliy since sandeep can lure your model, and if needed theres always that place trick model can copy from sandeep

Opponent is very rarely low on cards due to the myranda and arcane reservoir

Nekima dies instantly when thrown to the middle of enemy crew (its just 12 wounds and stones)

Collodi is probably the best option, but hes slightly outclassed on dmg output, activations, mobility and interact actions. So i lose the exhaustion war

Pandora needs a crow to paralyze you know that? And with depression its too hard to make her as mobile as it would be required to be useful.

You missed my point with targetting his lower Wp beaters. You aren’t trying to burn down his hard hitting low Wp models. You hit them and then use their attacks that are on plus flips from the Gamin to smash Mages or whatever is in range. Hell, you can have a model you obeyed use up one of Sandeep’s beacon abilities for the turn. Have them target Terrifying models and fail the horror duel for them. 

The point of me mention that the Gamin can’t attack was that you aren’t really risking much by yanking him into the middle of your crew and out of range to buff his friends.

Myranda is going to give cards out once. After that he’s just got one extra card. He can get a few more by damaging Sandeep when the mages pitch cards for their abilities. If your opponent is using The Captain to push things around, has Sandeep Summoning, is Furious Casting, and is trying to Leap and use Sandeep’s place ability they are going to need cards. If you are making your opponent take constant Wp duels like Neverborn seem to be good at doing, then they are either just going to have to accept failing duels or ditching cards they’d rather hold onto.

Who cares if you lose Nekima if you can drop her into the middle of the Mages, kill the one with the Blood Ward upgrade and tie up the other two for the turn while your opponent spends the entire turn reacting to Nekima. That seems like  what her job is.

I’ve never played against Sandeep. I’m just telling you what I’d hate a Neverborn player to do to me when I play him.

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28 minutes ago, WWHSD said:

You missed my point with targetting his lower Wp beaters. You aren’t trying to burn down his hard hitting low Wp models. You hit them and then use their attacks that are on plus flips from the Gamin to smash Mages or whatever is in range. Hell, you can have a model you obeyed use up one of Sandeep’s beacon abilities for the turn. Have them target Terrifying models and fail the horror duel for them. 

The point of me mention that the Gamin can’t attack was that you aren’t really risking much by yanking him into the middle of your crew and out of range to buff his friends.

Myranda is going to give cards out once. After that he’s just got one extra card. He can get a few more by damaging Sandeep when the mages pitch cards for their abilities. If your opponent is using The Captain to push things around, has Sandeep Summoning, is Furious Casting, and is trying to Leap and use Sandeep’s place ability they are going to need cards. If you are making your opponent take constant Wp duels like Neverborn seem to be good at doing, then they are either just going to have to accept failing duels or ditching cards they’d rather hold onto.

Who cares if you lose Nekima if you can drop her into the middle of the Mages, kill the one with the Blood Ward upgrade and tie up the other two for the turn while your opponent spends the entire turn reacting to Nekima. That seems like  what her job is.

I’ve never played against Sandeep. I’m just telling you what I’d hate a Neverborn player to do to me when I play him.

There's actually no reason to single out any of the mages. No one has warding runes, so the ward upgrades aren't all that game changing.

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24 minutes ago, santaclaws01 said:

There's actually no reason to single out any of the mages. No one has warding runes, so the ward upgrades aren't all that game changing.

I think there’s 8 unspent soul stones in the crew that was posted. That’s 5 stones left over if Sandeep brings a full cache. There’s got to be something that the OP left out.

Even if nothing has Warding Runes, I’d still single out the Mage with Blood Ward since he can Furious Cast and use his attack while engaged. Either he’s going to kill whatever is tying up the Mages with his 4 attacks or he’ll put some damage on it and  have pushed it out of engagement so the other mages can cast away. If there’s easier mages to kill go for them but all things being equal, the Blood mage should always be the first of the three to take out.

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2 hours ago, santaclaws01 said:

Collodi doesn't need to kill them, he just needs to make them slow and steal their AP. He can spend 4 ap to deal anywhere from 8-16 damage and steal 4 of your opponents AP in the process.

To me, this seems like the reason to play Collodi instead of another master.

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If you’ve got the Sandeep player using his AP and cards to get models back into position or out of danger he’s not using those cards and AP to score and kill your models. It’s not something that’s unique to Sandeep but if you can get your opponent to be the one that needs to react the you’ve got the advantage.

I’m not sure what sort of advice you’re looking for as it seems that you’ve already decided that Sandeep is unbeatable. There are very few masters in Malifaux that you can beat just by bringing the right combination of models or by knowing the secret tactic that they just can’t handle. The ones that can be beaten like that are the bottom teir masters that don’t see much competitive play table time.

There’s no silver bullet for beating a well balanced master that is bringing a crew made up of what are arguably the best models in his faction. If you are aware of the crew’s limitations and how to apply your strengths to against their weaknesses there’s no reason that you shouldn’t have a reasonable chance of winning unless you are just outmatched as a player.

I’m currious when you mention ‘fixed master’ if you meant that the tournament was a fixed master tournament or if those particular players just never chose to play a master other than Sandeep. If it’s a fixed master tournament then it’s really going to skew more heavily towards Arcanists playing Sandeep.

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3 hours ago, WWHSD said:

 

I’m currious when you mention ‘fixed master’ if you meant that the tournament was a fixed master tournament or if those particular players just never chose to play a master other than Sandeep. If it’s a fixed master tournament then it’s really going to skew more heavily towards Arcanists playing Sandeep.

It was fixed faction, but almost all Arcanists decided to play all 6 rounds with only Sandeep.

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if myranda is a problem with Lilith (plus eventually tannen for masks bonus) it's not impossible use tangle shandow on her in first turn. your oppo draws cards only in first turn.

Also nb are much much better for drawing cards then arcanists.

Do you ever try Cyclops for negate Los? Maybe with Lilith?

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I second the Tangle Shadows, I used the action against Myranda on a tournament on Sunday, sure Myranda is now next to Lilith, but DF 7, a potential nearby beater and ML 7 on Lilith herself is she needs to put on some damage is great. Needing the masks really put me off for a while, but I was still learning about card and stone efficiency, now I use it a lot.

It also helps that Sandeep is quite card hungry as a crew, so even hitting the 9 of masks TN isn't impossible.

I'm not familiar with how Mages work, like the upgrades for example, but dropping Aeslin in, with Malifaux Provides or FGF could work, drop the 0 to cause a Neg to CA actions and cause a bit of damage where neccessary. 

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On 4/3/2018 at 9:48 PM, Cedar said:

It was fixed faction, but almost all Arcanists decided to play all 6 rounds with only Sandeep.

Have you tried including Sue in your crews when playing into Sandeep? His 0 action puts enemy Ca actions targeting friendlies within 3:auraon :-flip. His attack also has a trigger that kills totems unless 2 soul stones are discarded. That can take Banasuva off the table in 1AP or bleed some stones off of Sandeep. 

You could toss Thousand Faces on him. If your opponent surprises you and brings someone other than Sandeep you can swap it out for Retirbutions Eye to shoot through Armor or ignore triggers for a turn. If they don’t it’ll be good for 1AP on your master when Sue gets killed. 

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18 minutes ago, WWHSD said:

Have you tried including Sue in your crews when playing into Sandeep

I was one of the organizers so I didn't participate in that tournament, but during my other games against Sandeep I sometimes took Sue. He was fine - not gamechanging, not total garbage. I have to admit, his aura is useful against mages, but with Gamin that gives friendly models :+flip attack  he wasn't as good as he could be. And about killing Banasuva - I prefer to deal with models that are actually really scary in Sandeep crew (like Cerberus, Mages, Captain or Mr. Desai himself) mostly because he has an option to resummon his totem, which means that Fire Lord is an AP sink - you kill him wasting resources and another one has a chance to pop up.

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6 minutes ago, Cedar said:

I was one of the organizers so I didn't participate in that tournament, but during my other games against Sandeep I sometimes took Sue. He was fine - not gamechanging, not total garbage. I have to admit, his aura is useful against mages, but with Gamin that gives friendly models :+flip attack  he wasn't as good as he could be. And about killing Banasuva - I prefer to deal with models that are actually really scary in Sandeep crew (like Cerberus, Mages, Captain or Mr. Desai himself) mostly because he has an option to resummon his totem, which means that Fire Lord is an AP sink - you kill him wasting resources and another one has a chance to pop up.

1 AP and a tome isn't really a waste of AP to sac Banasuva(unless he took the can't move upgrade so you just avoid him them).

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14 minutes ago, Cedar said:

I was one of the organizers so I didn't participate in that tournament, but during my other games against Sandeep I sometimes took Sue. He was fine - not gamechanging, not total garbage. I have to admit, his aura is useful against mages, but with Gamin that gives friendly models :+flip attack  he wasn't as good as he could be. And about killing Banasuva - I prefer to deal with models that are actually really scary in Sandeep crew (like Cerberus, Mages, Captain or Mr. Desai himself) mostly because he has an option to resummon his totem, which means that Fire Lord is an AP sink - you kill him wasting resources and another one has a chance to pop up.

I think that's why Sue is good at dealing with Banasuva. You are essentially trading a card and an Enforcer AP for an opponent's card and a Master AP. It seems like just letting Banasuva stay out is almost like giving Sandeep a free AP and a severe mask every turn. It's particularly good if Sue can get to Banasuva before he gets to activate in the round he's summoned.

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Sorry, I wasn't clear in my previous post - of course using Sue to kill Banasuva is good trade, even if he misses his trigger he can deal 3/4/5 damage to him. When I wrote about dealing with really scary models I forgot to mention that it was in games when I didn't have Sue with me. Sorry for misinformation :) 

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How about sling-shooting Nekima into Sandeeps face? Bring Lilith, run some cheap, fast model (Cherub?) somewhere close to Sandeep, swap Cherub with Nekima, Nekima charges Sandeep. Next turn if you have Doppelganger cheat initiative flip if needed and put more pressure on Sandeep.

 

If Sandeep is not too available to be snatched this way, try to kill his pesky Mage this way. If Nekima is in danger of counter-strike pull her back using Tangle Shadows again sending some cheap model to certain death instead.

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23 hours ago, daniello_s said:

How about sling-shooting Nekima into Sandeeps face? Bring Lilith, run some cheap, fast model (Cherub?) somewhere close to Sandeep, swap Cherub with Nekima, Nekima charges Sandeep. Next turn if you have Doppelganger cheat initiative flip if needed and put more pressure on Sandeep.

 

If Sandeep is not too available to be snatched this way, try to kill his pesky Mage this way. If Nekima is in danger of counter-strike pull her back using Tangle Shadows again sending some cheap model to certain death instead.

If nekima is to charge sandeep it means she is 9" away, have you ever seen what happens to nekima after one furious casting from mage? Iam really tired of reading posts about tangle shadow. Pigapult? Tangle shadow! Perdita with el mayor? Tangle shadow! Sandeep? Tangle Shadow! Because when you have x2 rush you always have rj and they cant draw a 10+! Its really difficult to use tangle shadow efficently against deep (high wp often with +) and when you do suceed what are you actually doing? That wonders me the most. If you swap in deep with shield you wont kill him with nekima except with rj(and still with 3hits and rj you may fail if he prevents good) and then he escapes. If you swap out nekima she isnt doing anything after two hits from mage (slow and push away, you have forest they have place from deep). If you swap in deep without shield he is till has at least one activation to place out and you are always outactivated with lilith. 

I played against sandeep a lot, I play against him at least 2 each tounament (various players) and for me Lilith just dosent have enough punch to beat him (you can always play better i know but then talking about the match up is pointless), not sure what the best solution against deep is but that diffinetly is not lilith. I usually play collodi (i know about magnetism, but this master has so much raw power that he is never a bad pick) or pandora into arcanist(sandeep). 

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On 4/11/2018 at 10:50 AM, daniello_s said:

How about sling-shooting Nekima into Sandeeps face? Bring Lilith, run some cheap, fast model (Cherub?) somewhere close to Sandeep, swap Cherub with Nekima, Nekima charges Sandeep. Next turn if you have Doppelganger cheat initiative flip if needed and put more pressure on Sandeep.

 

If Sandeep is not too available to be snatched this way, try to kill his pesky Mage this way. If Nekima is in danger of counter-strike pull her back using Tangle Shadows again sending some cheap model to certain death instead.

First of all its really hard to make happen unless your opponent is an idiot. Second once u fail its gg wp surrender time.

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3 hours ago, Passenty said:

If nekima is to charge sandeep it means she is 9" away, have you ever seen what happens to nekima after one furious casting from mage? Iam really tired of reading posts about tangle shadow. Pigapult? Tangle shadow! Perdita with el mayor? Tangle shadow! Sandeep? Tangle Shadow! Because when you have x2 rush you always have rj and they cant draw a 10+! Its really difficult to use tangle shadow efficently against deep (high wp often with +) and when you do suceed what are you actually doing? That wonders me the most. If you swap in deep with shield you wont kill him with nekima except with rj(and still with 3hits and rj you may fail if he prevents good) and then he escapes. If you swap out nekima she isnt doing anything after two hits from mage (slow and push away, you have forest they have place from deep). If you swap in deep without shield he is till has at least one activation to place out and you are always outactivated with lilith. 

I played against sandeep a lot, I play against him at least 2 each tounament (various players) and for me Lilith just dosent have enough punch to beat him (you can always play better i know but then talking about the match up is pointless), not sure what the best solution against deep is but that diffinetly is not lilith. I usually play collodi (i know about magnetism, but this master has so much raw power that he is never a bad pick) or pandora into arcanist(sandeep). 

Stop please with these unecessary complaints! There are 7 topics on "How is strong Sandeep, nerfing sandeep .."..people try to give you some advices! Tangle shadow is the best attack of Lilith, like "lightning dance" of Yan lo..probably you and the others that complain about sandeep, don't know how to use their neverborns well. (tangle shadow on pigapult?? if anything, on one cheaper piece that can engage pigapult..)

What happen on nekima after one furious casting? What did you want? An immortal nekima? i like this game because there are pros and cons, for every factions!

Apart that if nekima charges Sandeep, after oxfordian mages can't casting well on her because they are engaged.. (unless sandeep have unaligned sage and also use the sight beyond...) 

Ok, probably you don't kill sandeep with nekima..but at least you start to to eat his resources! Also i want remember on every Lilith players that tey have (1) Wicked Vines, a very strong and undervauled attack action.. i'm just saying that there are 4 dmgs on a pushed model...and leave it at that.

and then, i've already written in the other 15 threads on sandeep..sandeep is a master that needs a lot of cards, (to discard for oxfordans's furious casting, suit for Tn, for extra action and other)

Never thought about a nb list with some pieces that consumes opponent resources?

Already know how this ends.. like previous (leveticus double focus, papa loco, francisco, wind gamin, gremlins..) someone complains and then they will be nerfed..

But after sandeep, who is next? Nellie? Nicodem? Hamelin? Who? It makes me smile..😭

 

 

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