Counterplaying the Viks

[Davos]

So I've played a couple games against Viks recently and both times were completely blown out of the water.  Now, in part that was due to my opponent breaking the rules (unburying the Master w/Scion) but in general I just struggled against the out-activation/ and bomb factor. 

What do you do when your opponent drops Viks and how do you play against them?

 

[Saduhem]

What faction/master do you play?

[Davos]

Outcasts, my main master is Levi.  Also am strong with VS (though he's not strong).  Learning Tara and Viks in the next couple weeks.

I play Iron Levi, with A&D, Peacekeeer, Stalker, Necropunk, Terracotta, and waifs.

[Freman]

How to play against Viks?

Very carefully.

Make no mistake, when a Vik attacks something will die. You have to prevent that being more than one thing. Whirlwind, the Mask trigger on both of their melee attacks, allows them to attack other models within range so you have to keep enough distance between your models so they can't Whirlwind.

Models that prevent enemies charging into them, Ronin, Desperate Mercenaries, Rusty Alyce, Hamelin, will put a damper on Viks, forcing them to spend AP walking into base contact.

Kill Viks when the opportunity presents itself. Start with Blood as she's usually the most dangerous. Remember she's just Df6 with 7 wounds and soulstones to prevent damage. If she gets the opportunity to attack, or another model can heal a sister, she'll heal though so ideally you want to kill her in one activation.

Ashes can range from fragile, Df5 and 7 wounds, to quite durable, survivalist and Marlena, so she can be a bit more tricky to deal with. With Blood gone though she's a bit less of a threat.

[Saduhem]

Rusty Alyce's Snares aura annoys the hell out of the Viks. Also, if you feel like going Pariah of Bone and bring 2x Ashigaru, their brace can 1shot any charging model with less than 8 wds, like the Vik of Blood.

Ignoring armor is going to make the peacekeeper very fragile so you might want to place him isolated so that if he gets the alpha strike, the rest of your crew is relatively safe. If he charges the rest of your crew, save high cards to make the peacekeeper eat her.

A&D can do the same and also be safe from a charge. 

I would highly consider Alyce for the no charge bubble and keeping A&D separated on his own. Nothing in the crew is chargeable and the opponent has to decide on what to hit. The only problem with that is that your Waifs still need to be close to your anchors.

What's goin to hurt you the most is activation control. If you did like bone, the Ashigarus would help because you would be protected till the end of the turn.

Alyce can also give you a reactivating Peacekeeper, and I imagine you own her from Levi's box.

If you survive the alpha strike, Levi can meet either Vik in 1 activation.

[James Dyson]

Some thoughts that I’ve been meaning to try/ look for when I play the Bury-Viks:

- for all flavors of Viks - spread out.  They’re gonna delete what they touch, so limiting their whirlwind impact is crucial.

- if they start buried with Soaring Dragon, only the scion can unbury Blood turn 1. Sure the Scion can bury in response to being targeted, but it costs them a card and she’ll take damage to be unburied (the copy of her (0)).  So focusing the Scion can help.

- Abominations can turn off (0)s, so if you can get some into the enemy crew (desolate warping their void wretches or desperate mercs), then Blood/Scion can’t unbury.

- Anna Lovelace’s Gravity Well can keep the Scion/ Blood from coming up within 8”. Granted, their charge is 8” so it’s best used to keep them at the very edge of their threat.  Add in some severe terrain and you can zone them.

- Tara’s void crew can eat a buried Vik/ Scion alive.  In Levi, maybe try slotting in the Talos?

[KID55]

Not yet played against new Viks, but earlier, I alphastriking them first with Leveticus. A&D walk toward, Leveticus jump to him and with 2-3 casts kill Bloody. With  trigger of course. Did it two times, always work. Try it out)

[KID55]

And general advice for Leveticus: try to play him as aggressive as you can. But Leveticus themselves must attack low-wound or wounded models, and turn them into aboms. Try to kill enemy support models - this very frustrating for opponent, and demoralising it's very important

[daniello_s]

Exactly. Take Trapper/Hans and snipe down enemy support models/scheme runners. With less activation your opponent will have use Pokey when you still will have some models to counter-strike her.

[beergod]

As what every one else said, spread out.  take out the weaker models  early and keep a big beater back to counter charge to minimize the dmg.  

Tara with some Void Wretches and the old man on the clock wreck a  buried Vik of Blood.

[Mxbedlam]

Just quit. When you see your opponent put Viks on the table, just shake their hands and congratulate them on a 10-0. Eventually they will stop playing Viks because they want to play real games. 

Seriously though most everyon is right here. Deny them charge opportunities, spread out and understand that at least one model is going down. Just make sure you can mitigate which one it is and retaliate to finish them off. 

[CapnBloodbeard]

Couple of things you can do.  Some masters/henchmen can take a hit - between that and soulstones, you can withstand a couple of hits.  Then you just have to land YOUR hits and hope you hit hard enough.  They only have 7 wounds (but may be using survivalist for hard to kill, the Master anyway).  If you have any models that can prevent enemy models from using soulstones then this helps a lot.  

Use disposable models to block charging lines.  Put a pointless minion in front of your important models - but then need to be far enough in front that the Vik can't charge to the side and engage both.  Blocking LoS is good. 

 

Use the terrain.  Hiding around corners can force the Viks to expose themselves.  

 

There's nothing wrong with going defensive! 

Stand back and shoot and force them to come to you (terrain dependant).

Play to your schemes and strats - they may be killing your models, but is that actually earning VP?  

Spreading your models out can really limit their killing capacity.

Models that don't randomise when firing into engagement can be helpful.  

As Levi, if you can convince the Viks to hit Levi then that's good for you.  Use Levi to keep getting in the way and lure the Viks away from your waifs/anchors.  Levi can block their charge lines while other models get on with scoring VP.  You know that the Viks will need to go for your waifs/anchors, so how can you deal with that?  Can you block them? Hide them somewhere? Have another model ready to ambush?  

How are they playing the Viks?  If Malifaux Child is casting spells form the master, pick him off.  That will force them to make tough AP decisions.  If they have the student of conflict, Trapper can kill her pretty quickly.  

They will have a healer.  Kill it.  

Viks are potent, but quite unforgiving if they are out of position.  Make sure you keep asking about the triggers because they have a range of possible defensive triggers too.  

Manage your resources.  If you can hit them for 5, 6 or 6 damage (ie a moderate or severe), then even using soulstones, they're going to lose a huge chunk of wounds.  Don't use your high cards to save the pointless models if you can put a big hit on them.  

 Can also use overlaps.  Make sure that if your Viks kill something, then something else is always in a position to hit them back.  Model for Model.  

Don't forget that if one Vik kills something, they all heal.  This can influence how willing you are to let them pick off a weak model.  Of course if a weak model occupies a Vik for a turn and means that's a turn you're scoring VP and they're not because you're off doing other things....

[katadder]

Hans with scout the field can kill the malifaux child before it activates no matter where it is hiding (and ignores the manipulative).

also when using him my opponent has hid vik of blood to stop me shooting off mark or oathkeeper.

few non chargeable people like A&D and alyce also helps (did take a full non-chargable crew against viks last time I played them)

[dancater]

This is such a common question it should be a cross-forum sticky.  There are already a few tactica stickies for various masters/crews so this should exist as the anti-tactics for the Vik's.

No crew invokes as much despair and as many questions as a well played Vik's crew especially for the more novice player and for those who have never faced them before.  That is not by any means to say that the Vik's are the best crew in Malifaux, they are not even the best crew in Outcasts barring certain strat/scheme pools.  But they are one of the most obvious, direct, uncomplicated and brutal crews in the game - they do one thing exceptionally well - they slaughter stuff - they do it in an uncomplicated fashion which involves supercharging a couple of models (notably Vik Blood) and then smashing everything near that model.  Killing is always a valid tactic into any scheme/strat pool - kill it and it can't score schemes nor prevent yours.  Speed and power mean that it is a one chance to prevent deal, you misplay your positioning, over-extend just a little bit, fail to kill a Vik the moment you get a chance, fail to have an effective lethal counter-attack or simply play the Vik's in the bloodbath game and forget to focus on the actual victory conditions and well you lose, probably in a spectacular fashion that involves a red mist and pieces small enough to need a sponge to clean up.

The Vik's break peoples morale as often as they break their crews.  The initial exposure to the Vik Bomb is like your initial exposure to an actual Bomb, it detonates and you stumble away reeling, bleeding from your ears with no idea what just happened only vaguely comforted by the fact you still have all your limbs.  This is why the Vik's are not simply "another crew" but an institution.  You survive Yan Lo's beard as a Malifaux modelers rite of passage, you survive the Vik Bomb as a Malifaux gamers rite of passage.  

So defeating it......

So here is (literally) a post I made on the identical subject previously.

Step One CAREFULLY because....

Step Two PLAY FOR THE MISTAKE.  Delay, dodge, parry and make your opponent slip up by moving a Vik into the danger zone and then kill said Vik, don't be the one making a mistake and being alpha'd by the Vik chainsaw.  Carefully cut away into the support models or score your easy VP's while the Vik player futilely awaits the perfect moment to unleash Vik Blood and then has to rush it because they are falling behind.  

The strat to beat the Viks is like every answer in Malifaux, it depends on (1) what is the scheme/strat pool (2) what have you got (3) what is the terrain (4) the random element of the deck - in that rough order.

Which model you go for depends on what you can get to quickly and eliminate/neutralize.  But obviously there are certain key targets.

• Vik of Blood is very fragile, if you can lure (either with an actual lure or a sacrificial piece) her out or your opponent makes a mistake smack the angry out of her - but obviously they've got a heal option so don't commit the big beater unless you are confident of the kill because it won't survive a counter-attack by a unfortunately alive Blood.
• Vik of Ashes will not come out to play unless its to try to bait something for a Blood chainsaw unless you opponent has taken leave of their senses.
• Mali Child (if taken, usually is) is a nice target if you have a range sniper and it is at all targetable, well worth the focus shot even in cover.
• Johan (if taken and its common) is actually pretty vulnerable and if push comes to shove bring him out by forcing him to clear a condition on Blood and then nail him.
• The Scion of the Void (if taken, its a newer tactic but now common), be aware of it and the tactic, the Scion is vulnerable, nail it and problem to some extent goes away, so avoid and dodge as much and as long as you can, don't let this trick near what your opponent wants to kill and you want to protect.  Make them work for it and delay and frustrate looking for them to make the mistake.

Those would be my primary targets. 

Other models you will/might see are:

Lazarus and Librarian are tough enough to kill you'd need a heavy commit and if Blood is still active she'll come and try to kill on a counter-attack or will press at your vulnerability while the beater is away.

Hodgepodge is also tough to kill for its points and overall contribution, if the opportunity presents sure kill it but I would not chase it.

Vanessa is a good target, almost made my priority list but she'll likely be very far back and is to big to shot kill her with one sniper, likely not worth the effort till you've broken at least one of the three.

However, REMEMBER the schemes and strats, if the Viks waste time killing, which they excel at while you score winning VP's that is a win - this is Malifaux, win by winning not by killing.  Also only 8 activations and several of them are very small and all up that is not a lot of wounds in the crew, you could play an activation and attrition game with a summoner very well, in which case Lazarus and his blast potential becomes a more important target.

On that note with the right crew you can wait till Vik of Blood activates, move a kill piece in and then play for initiative and double activate her dead.  But that is a move where the cards and luck can kill you.   

This crew is not all powerful, it is perhaps the ultimate representation of the "Glass Cannon" so when it goes off you're dead and wondering how that can be stopped but when you smash the cannon its dead and you're wondering if it is really that easy.  So it can feel like the ultimate power in the galaxy right up until you locate that damn exhaust port.

[Davos]

Ok first, @dancater That might be the literal best, most useful post I've seen on the entire form ever.  Thank you for detailed response!  

After thinking about it and reading through all your responses (thanks y'all), I have a ton of options and that first and formost I need to get over the psychological effect of the Alpha strike.  Once I've come to terms with that, I think I can handle it better.  Moreover, I appreciate that you all have given counters based on both knowing you're playing to Viks and just general tips.

It also occured to me that as Levi, I think I might have a really interesting way to counter the burying of the Vik.  If the Vik gets buried by a Void Wretch, it MUST pop out when a modeled is killed.  So, since I play a ton of Levi, I can sac one of my waifs, draw 2 cards/place and force them to unbury the Vik, with an enitre Levi activation to dick with her.  Granted, thats dependent on HOW bury occurs, but could be insane counterplay if it happens.  I should have thought of that in my tournment match, I could have popped out the Vik totally exposed, with a 4 AP Levi ready to rekt

[PolishSausage]

On 1/21/2018 at 4:41 PM, daniello_s said:

Exactly. Take Trapper/Hans and snipe down enemy support models/scheme runners. With less activation your opponent will have use Pokey when you still will have some models to counter-strike her.

100%

Take Hans and trappers against Viks, spread them out as best as possible

On Levi I recommend Scramble/Scout the field/Oathkeeper. Doing so forces you opponent to play back and lose ap for walking/placing delivery.

Marleena also makes taking Levi off the table a PITA, 100% recomend when using levi as the queen piece.

For scheming Guilty are your best bet due to DF6 and high wound count.

[Mxbedlam]

TC warrior helps you a lot when yo uare trying to wether that attack too. had an opponent waste a RJ on trying to kill Howard when he had Ancient Protections on him. Howard lived through both Viks with 1 wound left.