Shen Long help please

[generalbear]

Am I missing something here ( which is entirely possible ) but shen long can poetentially keep defensive + all game ?
Making him probably the hardest model to kill in the game..

[Nikodemus]

If he takes Defensive Stance action it sticks until his next activation. If he takes his (0) for defensive it sticks until his next activation. If peasant gives it to him it sticks until his next activation. If he gets it from winning an opposed duel with an enemy while having Low River Style it sticks until end of turn. If he gets defensive from two different ending points, only ending point of the latest applied sticks. So yes, it's possible to have +defensive all game but it requires him to win an opposed duel with an enemy after starting the turn but before him activating, which isn't guaranteed to happen.

Keep in mind that no matter how many +'s you have, your max duel total is your stat + card flipped, which barring jokers is 6+13 for Shenlong. Plenty of beater models can equal that to hit him, with enough +'s on Shenlong's side it just takes more cheating from the opponent.

He is a durable master, no question about that, but far from unkillable.

[Adran]

Whilst you can get to Defensive +millions you won't flip more than 4 cards ever. So yes, its pretty good for meaning he should always get a good result without cheating (but your really want to watch out for that black joker!). If you want to get a more durable modle, you can make Df 9 Pedita with eternal defensive which is going to be much better. And probably still not worth it. 

 

[Nikodemus]

Gotta flip those 4 positive cards even when on Swill+3.

[generalbear]

That was my next question 

Say shen os made a beast and Marcus applies the 2 conditions that means shen ends up with 3 neg on df flips 

 

Yet has defensive +8 

Are flipping cards as if you were Def + 5? Or are you on negatives 

[Tokapondora]

If you have 8 's and 3 's you'd get 5 's, but end up flipping only 3 's because that is the maximum amount of cards you can flip per duel. The thing is though, even if he had 40 's can still only gain as much as the highest card. If you attacked with a Ml/Ca/Sh 6 model, you will always have a chance to at least tie the duel unless he uses his burning upgrade.

[Tokapondora]

If you'd like some general tips on playing against Shenlong; Go after the key pieces of his crew. He is nothing without his crew while his crew is completely functional without him. Don't leave damage lying around, focus it all on one model at a time so as to keep them from being healed up and always know how far his 6" bubbles stretch.

[santaclaws01]

19 hours ago, Tokapondora said:

If you'd like some general tips on playing against Shenlong; Go after the key pieces of his crew. He is nothing without his crew while his crew is completely functional without him. Don't leave damage lying around, focus it all on one model at a time so as to keep them from being healed up and always know how far his 6" bubbles stretch.

Yeah, attacking Shenlong himself is basically just an exercise in futility most of the time when he can just heal himself for up to 12 wds, Sensei Yu can heal up to 8, and any other healing hes likely to have in his list.

[Piccio]

@generalbear Shenlong can keep burn, focus and poison on after unkeep, but defensive still goes out at the beginning of his activation, he has no special rules about def. condition.

[Adran]

14 minutes ago, Piccio said:

@generalbear Shenlong can keep burn, focus and poison on after unkeep, but defensive still goes out at the beginning of his activation, he has no special rules about def. condition.

Whilst this is sort of true, different sources of Defensive+x condition can give different end times, and the condition as a whole moves to the newest end time, so if a peasent gives Shenlong Df before he activates, the end time will be the end of turn. If he then takes the defensive stance action, his defensive+2 now has an end time of his next activation. If next turn before he activates, the peasent gives him another defensive +1 the end time is reset to the end of turn, and so forth

[Nikodemus]

@Adran

Peasants' "Provide for the Temple" action specifically states its defensive ends at the start of target's next activation. For Shenlong to maintain defensive throughout the game he has the get defensive from winning an opposed duel with Low River Style attached, as that doesn't state a specific end time.

[Piccio]

Defence condition on a model goes away at the beginning of that model activation. Does't care about source.

[Nikodemus]

SRB page 39:

Quote

(#) Defensive Stance: The model may discard a card. If the model does so, it gains
the following Condition until the start of its next Activation a number of times equal
to the AP spent on this Action: “Defensive +1: This model gains + to all Df duels.”

SRB page 61:

Quote

Unless otherwise specified, all Conditions are removed from a model at the end
of the Turn.

Defensive
Defensive is a Condition gained by a model taking the Defensive Stance Action
(see pg. 39). It reads:
Defensive +1: This model gains + to all Df duels.

As you can see, Defensive gained from Defensive Stance action goes away at the start of your next activation, but Defensive by itself doesn't have a specified ending point.

Shenlong's (0) action specifically specifies an ending point of start of next activation. Same for Peasant's (1) action. But for example Low River Style's Ability to give Defensive when winning opposed duels doesn't, ie. Defensive gained from that goes away at the end of the turn.

From the FAQ we can see that when we have multiple ending points for the same condition, only the latest applied is used for determining when it ends:

Quote

37) If a model gains a stackable Condition from two different sources each with a different timing for when the Condition ends, when does the Condition end? For example, if a model takes the Defensive Stance Action to gain Defensive +1 until the start of its next Activation, but then gains the Defensive Condition from the Guardian which lasts until the start of the Guardian’s Activation, when does the Condition end?

The most recent application of a stackable Condition determines its end point. So in the example above, the model would gain Defensive +1 which ends at the start of its next Activation. Then the model gains an additional Defensive +2 from the Guardian, which stacks to Defensive +3 and ends when the Guardian starts its next Activation or is removed from play. The end time on the Defensive gained from the Guardian is used because that was the most recent application of the Condition.

tldr: Defensive and when it goes away very much cares about the source.

[Piccio]

uhm... ok..  so if Shenlong takes Defensive+1 from the LR upgrade he keep the condition value up untill the end of turn or untill he takes Defensive+x from a source that is defining the time the condition ends.

I'm not sure this is fair but rules&faq telling that.

Low river upgrade is really strong at this point (virtually if you are atleast in defence+1 and you have the LR upgrade on shenlong, if you succed a duel generated from an enemy before activating the defence raise (+1) and stay, then you can spent all 3 action to heal for 2+2 (eventually take +1 during activation). 12 point of heal it's really huge.

 

Thank you @Nikodemus for the explanation.

[generalbear]

Perhaps the voice place to say this 

But in the current climate, I've seen a lot of complaints that this or that is broken or overpowered yet 10t and this interaction never comes up Seems to me being always defensive is a little strong 

[Nikodemus]

21 minutes ago, generalbear said:

Perhaps the voice place to say this 

But in the current climate, I've seen a lot of complaints that this or that is broken or overpowered yet 10t and this interaction never comes up Seems to me being always defensive is a little strong 

Again, Df6 + King only ever gets up to 19, no matter how many other cards you flip. And it's entirely possible you won't see a single severe while flipping four cards. Nekima with a 12 in hand will hit you. Howard Langston with 12 in hand will hit you. Anything that attacks something other than Df will hit you. Anything with a lucky flip will hit you. Anything that blasts or pulses... you get the idea.

And you seem to be thinking it's easy to maintain perpetual defensive. You need to get "end of turn" defensive some time between start of the turn and Shenlong's activation, basically you need to win an opposed duel with an enemy while on Low River Style. Enemy has no reason to oblige you with that. I play a lot of Shenlong and this rarely comes up.

[generalbear]

This was the reason for my questions 

I play against shen long alot and seemingly it is perpetual 

[Tokapondora]

I've literally never heard of this being a point of complaint ever. I don't know how much AP your Shenlong player is pouring into going defensive, but he should be doing other things. The only way it could ever be perpetual would be if he ever took a defensive lasting to his next activation, and then next turn before his activation you tried hit him while he was carrying the Low River upgrade, and just keep repeating that every single turn. In which case it's all your fault for continuously attacking him without knowing you'll win before you even start the duel. A lot of models have a built in  to their defenses and all of them can be reliably punched in the face because 's don't raise your duel total, only the odds of raising your duel total. But again, going after Shenlong is a mistake. Take down his crew.

[generalbear]

I am not complaining just merely questioning, i am not that knowledgable about the tunders and especially shen long, he does add defensive from another source then use shens ap to top it up and make it last till next activation

 

[Bigbird990]

It's possible that your opponent is misreading his card and keeping the defensive condition stacked along with his others, focus, poison, burning etc. 

When I first started I misread his ability and definitely kept defensive for the entirety of a few practice games.

It's also easy to honestly forget to remove due to different timings.

Alternatively he can take a 0 action at the start of the turn after the initiative flip to become defensive, effectively being defensive permanently.

Make sure your opponent uses a good tracking system I personally use different coloured glass beads for each condition and have them next to him on the board. He has gained the nickname 'skittles' now.    

[NulSec]

He can't keep it up the whole game but he can keep applying it to himself. People have mentioned how. One thing to remember is that he can do a (0) Action during the "Shenlong Phase" (after initiative flips) which means he can set up his (0) prior to activating to get defensive. It may be possible your opponent is doing this? Or maybe he is using the (0) at the end of his activation to get defensive? Having the ability to do a (0) out of activation to get defensive as well as winning a duel with Low River Style (potentially out of activation) may give you a feeling he is always defensive, because he usually is always defensive. 

[Erik1978]

Quote

If he gets it from winning an opposed duel with an enemy while having Low River Style it sticks until end of turn.

Why does this not last until his next activation like normal?

[Nikodemus]

Like I already said, every condition that doesn't specify an end point ends at the end of turn step. This includes Defensive. Go check "Defensive" from the rulebook, it doesn't have an end point specified.

Specific actions and abilities, such as (#) Defensive Stance, or Shenlong's (0), or Peasants' (1), usually specify an end point of "model's next activation". Ability from Low River Style upgrade doesn't make that specification, so it has a different end point from the others.

[Ludvig]

Having defensive is far from OP. Any guild model can get defensive for the entire game because of the guardian and it's much easier than for Shenlong. People just attack your WP or cheat the card they knew they had to cheat anyway if they want to hit you.