Challenged Summoning?

[Tris]

Hi all, one question regarding an interaction between Barbaros Challenge and Nicos summoning off a Mindless Zombie:

 

So, Barbaros Challenge says:

Until the end of the Turn enemy models within 8 of this model must pass a TN 14 Wp duel when declaring a model other than this model as the target of an action, or the Action fails.

 

Now Nicodems Re-animator:

Name a Resurrectionist Minion Undead model. The TN of this Action is 10 plus the Soulstone Cost of the named model. 

Summon the named model within 1"  of target Corpse Marker, then discard the Corpse Marker.

.....

 

and the Mindless Zombies:

Friendly models may count this model as a Corpse Marker while performing actions.

....

 

 

So, does Nicodem need to pass the Challenge when summoning off a Mindless Zombie, or not?

[Adran]

I've thought long and hard and I think that in the end, Nicodem is targeting a model with his action, the Mindless zombie. Just because he is targeting  the zombie as a Corpse marker, it doesn't stop being a model. Nothing in its rules stop it being a model at the time it is targeted they just allow it to be the target when the action calls for a corpse marker. The same will happen for Mechanical doves and the Arcane emissary when they are targetted as scheme markers. They are still models at the same time so you are targeting a model. 

So he will have to make the challenge duel to summon off of a zombie. He won't need to take it to use chime of sorrows or embrace death because they don't target. 

 

[Ludvig]

I don't think it matters why you were allowed to target the model, you are obviously targeting a model.

If the zombie was considered a marker for all intents and purposes including other abilities then Nico shouldn't be drawing cards from saccing an undead model because he was only discarding a corpse marker. Everyone I know plays it like he draws a card since the zombie is a model so it should also be a model as far as challenge is concerned.

[santaclaws01]

I would say no. The Mindless zombie is being counted as a corpse marker

[solkan]

2 hours ago, Lokibri said:

 

You differ here between a corpse marker and a model.

What Nico does is: He names a model. Then he targets the mindless zombie, but he let's it count as a Corpse Marker (for this particular action).

 

So, in this case, there is only 1 target and that is a corpse marker, which does not count as a model.

Nothing is causing the Mindless Zombie to stop being a model while it's being counted as a corpse marker.  So you have an object in the game being treated as both a model and a corpse marker, and you are targeting it.

Therefore, the action is targeting a model.

[Lokibri]

 

You differ here between a corpse marker and a model.

What Nico does is: He names a model. Then he targets the mindless zombie, but he let's it count as a Corpse Marker (for this particular action).

 

So, in this case, there is only 1 target and that is a corpse marker, which does not count as a model. So, in conclusion there is no action, that would trigger the Challenge from Barbaros.

 

[Ludvig]

He is targeting a model even if he is counting it as a marker in some respects. Otherwise I'll be damned if I ever let my Nico opponents draw a card because an undea model was sacrificed near him because he sure as hrll can'tdraw cards for discarded corpse markers. The zombie is obviously still a model.

[MrDeathTrout]

I don't think Barbaros's challenge would stop it.

Nicodem's ability says "...target corpse marker..." and the Mindless Zombie says "...count this model as a Corpse Marker..."  I'd say he's just a corpse marker for that action.  Seems like the way it would work to me, but I can definitely see why it would go the other way.

[Math Mathonwy]

I agree with the reasoning that you are targeting a model (even if it counts as a Corpse Marker) and need to test. Hadn't considered this before.

Wouldn't this also mean that Sparks' Hostile Work Environment would stop Nico Summoning from Mindless Zombies?

"Hostile Work Environment: Enemy models
within 8 may not target models friendly to
them with Actions."

[Ludvig]

9 minutes ago, Math Mathonwy said:

I agree with the reasoning that you are targeting a model (even if it counts as a Corpse Marker) and need to test. Hadn't considered this before.

Wouldn't this also mean that Sparks' Hostile Work Environment would stop Nico Summoning from Mindless Zombies?

"Hostile Work Environment: Enemy models
within 8 may not target models friendly to
them with Actions."

Seema legit. Nico would have to have a pretty bad day to end up so close to Sparks although I'm sure you could orchestrate it. The Nico player could easily block the aura with some other 30mmmodel, maybe even the zombie itself if they are ht 2.