True Mother and Headhunter

[Voodoo Specter]

During the Headhunter strategy if Nekima with the True Mother upgrde kills an enemy via black blood can you place the head counter then summon the Terror Tot in base to base with the marker?

I wanted to check as they look like they happen at the same time and while the head marker cant be placed in contact with any models there is no restriction on summoning the Terror Tot in contact with the marker.

[Voodoo Specter]

And by extension can this also be applied to maturing the nephlim when they make a kill or turning gupps into Silurids

[Myyrä]

Nobody knows, and if somebody claims otherwise they are either lying or @Aaron, or possibly both.

Flip a coin or something.

[solkan]

14 hours ago, Voodoo Specter said:

During the Headhunter strategy if Nekima with the True Mother upgrde kills an enemy via black blood can you place the head counter then summon the Terror Tot in base to base with the marker?

I wanted to check as they look like they happen at the same time and while the head marker cant be placed in contact with any models there is no restriction on summoning the Terror Tot in contact with the marker.

If they happen at the same time, you have to appeal to General Timing to produce a sequence to resolve them in.

General Timing as written only covers Abilities that resolve at the same time, but it would be consistent with how Conditions are resolved in the Upkeep Phase if General Timing was assumed (or errated) to also apply to Conditions.  If for no other reason than that there are Conditions and Abilities that do the same thing and it would be needlessly complicated if they worked differently.

I think the first impulse is to try to extend General a Timing further to include scheme and strategy rules, but strategy rules are global rules that both don't belong to any models and also apply to all of the models.

So there's no basis to determine when the strategy rule should be evaluated relative to the Abilities or Conditions.

 

[Ludvig]

I would like encounter stuff to be it's own step after everything else just like in the end turn step but the rules really say nothing on the subject right now.

[solkan]

For what it's worth, the 1.5 Edition of General Timing specified that effects controlled by neither player (like environmental or scenario rules) after player controlled effects.

But it's still a card flip between "Do it like you would in 1.5, so after everything else" and "Act like its an Ability, and resolve it accordingly."

 

 

[Ludvig]

There is a pretty strong indication that all VP stuff happens after any and all model abilities. If it wasn't I would be free to score VP before a dying model got sacrificed instead of killed by abilities like those of Izamu, Wind Gamin, Leveticus etc.

[Erik1978]

I know I'm an old guy but I always vote for "rule as intended". (Or at least what I/we THINK is intended)

The head markers are not meant to be sitting in someone's hands for picking up, when they roll off, without that model moving first. That seems kind of obvious. "not to be placed in base contact etc." So I would rule that you place the head after the summon. Sure you can argue that different crews have different advantages with different schemes and strategies but this one just seems very loop holey to me.

[Ludvig]

36 minutes ago, Erik1978 said:

I know I'm an old guy but I always vote for "rule as intended". (Or at least what I/we THINK is intended)

The head markers are not meant to be sitting in someone's hands for picking up, when they roll off, without that model moving first. That seems kind of obvious. "not to be polaced in base contact etc." So I would rule that you place the head after the summon. Sure you can argue that different crews have different advantages with different schemes and strategies but this one just seems very loop holey to me.

There is really no indication that it shouldn't happen after everything else aoI think the old guy approach is prudent. The last edition rules even had it speled out.

[feagaur]

Would this matter in the end. I thought summoned models couldn't interact on the turn they are summoned. So although the head could be in base and you had 1ap you wouldn't be able to pick up the head.

If you're looking to stop other interacting by being in base, just make sure that when both are placed the model is between the head and any enemy models.

I did have this come up in a tournament game when a Gupp killed a model and summoned a Silurid. In that instance we placed the head when the model was reduced to 0 wounds, then summoned the silurid into base with both the gupp and the head marker, then removed the gupp and the enemy model. My opponent agreed, at the time that it was the correct order so we just played it like that. It was during the next activation that I realised that the silurid couldn't interact so just went off to kill something else instead.

[Adran]

1 hour ago, feagaur said:

Would this matter in the end. I thought summoned models couldn't interact on the turn they are summoned. So although the head could be in base and you had 1ap you wouldn't be able to pick up the head.

well it still saves an AP if you could summon in base contact with a head marker as you wouldn't need to walk to then remove it the following turn. Less of an advantage, but every AP can be important. 

[Ludvig]

Also future proofing. It's only a matter of time before something appears that can break that summoning-interact restriction. It's also a big deal since a tot summoned out of base can't deny the pickup, one summoned in btb could be placed so it denies it.

[Adran]

10 minutes ago, Ludvig said:

Also future proofing. It's only a matter of time before something appears that can break that summoning-interact restriction. It's also a big deal since a tot summoned out of base can't deny the pickup, one summoned in btb could be placed so it denies it.

Sandeep can already summon things that can interact on the first turn... Just not from the death of something else...

[santaclaws01]

8 hours ago, Adran said:

well it still saves an AP if you could summon in base contact with a head marker as you wouldn't need to walk to then remove it the following turn. Less of an advantage, but every AP can be important. 

They would still have their 1 AP to activate with on that turn to get into base contact with the marker.

[Ludvig]

8 hours ago, santaclaws01 said:

They would still have their 1 AP to activate with on that turn to get into base contact with the marker.

But they might want to use that ap to kill something. Spending one less ap on one thing is one more ap for doing something else. That's not something to sneeze at.

The opponent might also use their activation in between to completely block the head with their base so your tot can't use that ap to get into contact with the marker.

[JarnabyBones]

Aren't both the Black Blood and the Sprout Tot/Mature/Grow abilities?

[Ludvig]

5 hours ago, JarnabyBones said:

Aren't both the Black Blood and the Sprout Tot/Mature/Grow abilities?

Yes they are but the general timing rules don't mention where in the timing to slot in strategy marker placement so people want to use that to do it a time of their choosing. In m 1.5 it was after all other abilities.