Clockwork_Fish Posted October 30, 2016 Report Share Posted October 30, 2016 So I've got four games under my belt now using Nellie, so far undefeated, and I'm getting some push back on the combo of Nellie and Phiona. Particularly regarding how good Phiona is and all the extras she gets from hanging with Nellie. The words 'negative,' 'play' and 'experience' have been bandied about and angry looks shot in my direction. My own feeling is that it's a powerful combo, but has some vulnerabilities, like going after Nellie, targeting Willpower or separating them with lures. What are other people's feelings on the subject? Are they too good? How do you counter them? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Surrealistik Posted October 30, 2016 Report Share Posted October 30, 2016 If they think that's bad, wait till they get a load of that wombo combo with Promises and El Mayor support. Also with Brutal Effigy heals, Nellie gets pretty difficult to kill, and Sidir can negate an instance of forced movement, making it hard to pull apart the face wrecking ball, nevermind the to Wp vs annoying stuff like Lure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hidelfon Posted October 30, 2016 Report Share Posted October 30, 2016 (roll eyes) There are so many bullshit combos in this game... That somebody calling you on npe for Nellie + phiona is ridiculous. Don't do their homework for them. Being whiny is bad, bad being whiny and lazy it's even worse Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirby Posted October 30, 2016 Report Share Posted October 30, 2016 What overall crew are you using? What particular interactions are people having difficulty with? What kinds of crews are your opponents running? Is there a particular set of strats/schemes that was played that made the combo too strong for them? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryin Posted October 30, 2016 Report Share Posted October 30, 2016 I looooove Phiona. She's so good and makes everyone angry. I've been trying to squeeze her into other lists too, though she's best with Nellie. For someone who really is just a beat stick, she's surprisingly versatile. I like to bring Hanna and a performer with me when I play Nellie. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D_acolyte Posted October 30, 2016 Report Share Posted October 30, 2016 6 hours ago, Hidelfon said: (roll eyes) There are so many bullshit combos in this game... That somebody calling you on npe for Nellie + phiona is ridiculous. Don't do their homework for them. Being whiny is bad, bad being whiny and lazy it's even worse I agree with this guy. I am working on my anti Journalist plans as we speak but that because they are forcing me to consider guild doing something they have not done before. The Phiona Nellie combo did not look particularly strong to me unless I missed something. I do not play vs them but i have an idea of how to stop this combo... It is to Lure and Kill Phiona because lets face it killing Nellie though possibly and would be handy early game is probably not possible unless you have a min damage of 4 or can put a lot of attacks on her. I think to many people on the internet are willing to jump to a NPE conclusion anytime they see a new master from book 4, it is as if they want that to be the case. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clockwork_Fish Posted October 31, 2016 Author Report Share Posted October 31, 2016 22 minutes ago, Kirby said: What overall crew are you using? What particular interactions are people having difficulty with? What kinds of crews are your opponents running? Is there a particular set of strats/schemes that was played that made the combo too strong for them? My usual list is Nellie, Phiona, Printing Press, one or two Field Reporters and fill the rest with whatever, depending on whether or not I took Embedded. I tried Francisco once, but other than that I don't do anything to really support the dynamic duo because I don't think they really need it. Phiona usually gets Wrath the Guild and Lead Lined Coat, because everyone I play with seems to be gunning for her. My last game, earlier today, was against Lynch in Guard the Stash with close deployment. I was using Nellie, Phiona, Printing Press, Field Reporter, Dr Grimwell, Anna Lovelace (wasn't using Embedded because Resser), and a Guild Pathfinder. The Doc ran off to do Leave Your Mark, and the rest held the stash markers and laid scheme markers for Detonate the Chargers. It worked real well. Phiona went down in turn four, after successfully tanking Huggy, Lynch and Illuminated for two turns while hugging a Stash marker for dear life. In the process she took down a Pathfinder, Shadow Effigy and Depleted. 1 hour ago, Hidelfon said: (roll eyes) There are so many bullshit combos in this game... That somebody calling you on npe for Nellie + phiona is ridiculous. Don't do their homework for them. Being whiny is bad, bad being whiny and lazy it's even worse In a friendly game between, y'know, friends, I don't have a problem lending a helping hand, especially if it helps them become a better player and avoids having the same argument again in the future. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hidelfon Posted October 31, 2016 Report Share Posted October 31, 2016 "The words 'negative,' 'play' and 'experience' have been bandied about and angry looks shot in my direction." Not very nice friends it seems. Phiona + Nellie are not a very hard puzzle to deal with. Same way you deal with any high defebse model, but watching out for Nellie pushing you if you miss an attack : Attack phiona outside 8" of Nellie's aura (or inside, but out of kine of shit) with Mi/Sh/Ca of a value of 6 or 7 and ideally with some high cards Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Surrealistik Posted October 31, 2016 Report Share Posted October 31, 2016 Honestly I'm surprised they became so flustered over a two part combo which can be made a whole lot worse as I've stated. The best way to counteract Nellie + Phiona is to use their faction's own abusive/exploitative wombos, which will probably be beyond the scope of this thread (unless they're running Guild themselves). 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clockwork_Fish Posted October 31, 2016 Author Report Share Posted October 31, 2016 1 hour ago, Surrealistik said: Honestly I'm surprised they became so flustered over a two part combo which can be made a whole lot worse as I've stated. The best way to counteract Nellie + Phiona is to use their faction's own abusive/exploitative wombos, which will probably be beyond the scope of this thread (unless they're running Guild themselves). Or just ignore them. In any case, with book 4 out in stores I'm bringing Nellie to a tourney next weekend so I'll feed some fresh victims to the pickaxe and get their opinions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hagisman Posted October 31, 2016 Report Share Posted October 31, 2016 As far as my limited experience with Nellie goes 10t is a problem when loneswordsman is on the field. Nellie's Phiona Combo could take him out, but he's built to kill Guild Henchmen. As far as Negative goes Nellie is just a new master. Different tricks in Guild gets scorn a lot more than any other Faction in my opinion. A bunch of guys I play with are trying to get me to play out of the Guild box, but because they feel it doesn't have the depth their factions do. To each his own I say. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JDAntoine Posted October 31, 2016 Report Share Posted October 31, 2016 Both bring something new to the Guild, every wave 4 Master brings a rather new gameplan. It always thakes some time to adapt, some love to complain a lot before they do so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ludvig Posted October 31, 2016 Report Share Posted October 31, 2016 Phiona isn't a very durable model so I don't see how she can be so hard to deal with. At your upgrade configuration she is the same points as Langston. If they can deal with Langston + Collette they should be able to deal with Phiona + Nellie. If Phiona is at df 7 you could use a WP-targeting attack. Pandora or a nurse can paralyze her, doesn't matter how much fast Nellie gives her after that. There are a bunch of models with lures at Ca 6, 7 or 8 so they should easily move her away from whatever is granting the cover. If you want you could also use a lot of diguised models or models that create their own intervening terrain to just make her work really hard for any engagements. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Surrealistik Posted October 31, 2016 Report Share Posted October 31, 2016 @Ludvig To be fair, Promises, especially Promises on By Your Side Sidir really puts a wrench in Lure/Wp orientated tactics for stopping Phiona which is why I love it so; add in El Mayor and untangling that wrecking ball gets pretty harsh. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Manic Mouse Posted October 31, 2016 Report Share Posted October 31, 2016 I guess the question would be are they out damaging/playing an equivalently costed master and hench combo - as pointed out above would they be considered better than a Collette and Howard combo which costs the same? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myyrä Posted October 31, 2016 Report Share Posted October 31, 2016 41 minutes ago, Manic Mouse said: I guess the question would be are they out damaging/playing an equivalently costed master and hench combo - as pointed out above would they be considered better than a Collette and Howard combo which costs the same? Only against a Wp 4 model that has already activated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hagisman Posted October 31, 2016 Report Share Posted October 31, 2016 6 hours ago, Ludvig said: Phiona isn't a very durable model so I don't see how she can be so hard to deal with. At your upgrade configuration she is the same points as Langston. If they can deal with Langston + Collette they should be able to deal with Phiona + Nellie. If Phiona is at df 7 you could use a WP-targeting attack. Pandora or a nurse can paralyze her, doesn't matter how much fast Nellie gives her after that. There are a bunch of models with lures at Ca 6, 7 or 8 so they should easily move her away from whatever is granting the cover. If you want you could also use a lot of diguised models or models that create their own intervening terrain to just make her work really hard for any engagements. One of the big problems I've seen people have with Nellie is her Delegate. Not only does it throw out Fast, but if you are running an evidence light crew you can get heals off as well. I've healed Phiona and Frank both back up from their Hard to Kill with this. Not very strong, but strong enough that my opponent has to dedicate a second model to kill them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myyrä Posted October 31, 2016 Report Share Posted October 31, 2016 23 minutes ago, Hagisman said: One of the big problems I've seen people have with Nellie is her Delegate. Not only does it throw out Fast, but if you are running an evidence light crew you can get heals off as well. I've healed Phiona and Frank both back up from their Hard to Kill with this. Not very strong, but strong enough that my opponent has to dedicate a second model to kill them. It's not like literally every faction has a master that can heal and hand out fast... just most of them. Complaining about that seems pretty ridiculous. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ludvig Posted October 31, 2016 Report Share Posted October 31, 2016 9 hours ago, Surrealistik said: @Ludvig To be fair, Promises, especially Promises on By Your Side Sidir really puts a wrench in Lure/Wp orientated tactics for stopping Phiona which is why I love it so; add in El Mayor and untangling that wrecking ball gets pretty harsh. Promises doesn't let you beat that ca 8. Along with el mayor or Perdita's boost to wp it gets you to as much of a chance as you'll get. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hidelfon Posted October 31, 2016 Report Share Posted October 31, 2016 6 hours ago, Hagisman said: One of the big problems I've seen people have with Nellie is her Delegate. Not only does it throw out Fast, but if you are running an evidence light crew you can get heals off as well. I've healed Phiona and Frank both back up from their Hard to Kill with this. Not very strong, but strong enough that my opponent has to dedicate a second model to kill them. For healing them from 1WD to 7 with delegation , you need 3AP from Nellie and 3 evidence (1 from Nellie, 1 from press and for the last you need help from an enemy). That doesn't sound too good : ( Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hidelfon Posted October 31, 2016 Report Share Posted October 31, 2016 15 minutes ago, Ludvig said: Promises doesn't let you beat that ca 8. Along with el mayor or Perdita's boost to wp it gets you to as much of a chance as you'll get. Probably he meant that with by your side you can pass at least one to Sidir who has laugh off and the rest becomes easier. I think Belles are the only one with Ca8, right? I believe the rest are Ca6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hagisman Posted October 31, 2016 Report Share Posted October 31, 2016 3 minutes ago, Hidelfon said: For healing them from 1WD to 7 with delegation , you need 3AP from Nellie and 3 evidence (1 from Nellie, 1 from press and for the last you need help from an enemy). That doesn't sound too good : ( You don't need to heal someone 3 times or heal 3 separate models. You just have to get them above hard to kill. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hidelfon Posted October 31, 2016 Report Share Posted October 31, 2016 2 minutes ago, Hagisman said: You don't need to heal someone 3 times or heal 3 separate models. You just have to get them above hard to kill. Sorry, I don't know why I read that you had healed her up from HtK. In most turns you get 2 evidence to play with (3 with scathing review, but then you only get to cast delegation twice) . I think it's quite balanced, because you have to choose between using them for 2 heals, drop scheme marker, getting extra triggers or saving them for run from the truth or dropping a scheme marker at the end of the turn (score or eat next turn to push 6") By the way, in forums amd Facebook I have not read about people complaining about Nellie. I think they just have to figure her out ? I am finding her quite hard to master. She is very rewarding. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nikodemus Posted October 31, 2016 Report Share Posted October 31, 2016 18 minutes ago, Hidelfon said: I think Belles are the only one with Ca8, right? I believe the rest are Ca6 Oiran, Ten Thunders mercs, are Ca8, but they lack an in-built suit. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hidelfon Posted October 31, 2016 Report Share Posted October 31, 2016 Just now, Nikodemus said: Oiran, Ten Thunders mercs, are Ca8, but they lack an in-built suit. Thanks, I have forgotten about them! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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