New player against summoning dreamer

[ChirpOTK]

I know this is probably a common thing, but we just started playing and my other friend picked up the dreamer and spends the whole game summoning non-stop. I play guild and there's simply nothing I can do to even compete, it seems very imbalanced to me, and the matches with him are very unfun because I'm so oppressed by his 30 points of extra models he's put on the table.

im sure there are things I can do to compete more, does anyone have any advice when playing against summoning lists?

[Fetid Strumpet]

There are many threads on this topic.

Briefly, he's not actually getting 30 extra points of models in the game. For example if I said you could hire an Executioner, but you only got him from turn 3 onward, and he was slow and couldn't interact on that turn, and you had to spend a high card and a stone to get him to actually enter the board, would you still consider he was worth his full stones? Additionally are you figuring the time, positioning, and resource cost (which on the dreamer I admit is low) and master AP spent bringing in a model rather than doing anything else? 

The biggest hurdle to get over when facing a dedicated summoner is exactly what you can in here complaining about. The psychological impact it has. That isn't to denigrate you, or your position at all. It's a common perspective from new players, especially as kill v kill is so common in other games. Few games manage to balance summoning very effectively. While I also personally agree the Dreamer got away with too much, it isn't as bad as it seems. Don't get caught up in this mind game. Focus on what you have chosen to do to get VP, and get them.

So the first thing you need to know is the game is won on VP, not on killing the enemy. The first thing you need to do to have a better track record is really understand how VP are gained. If killing his models doesn't either make getting your VP easier, in a noticeably concrete way, or actually get you VP, as is the case in Hunting Party, then don't get bogged down in trying to kill his models. You can finish the game with no models left, and the opponent can have all theirs plus more, and it can still mean you won. 

Next, if you do need to clean out summons you cannot get caught up in killing them less efficiently than they are brought in. If he spends 1 ap bringing in a model, and you spend 2 or three ap to clean it out, you are losing the efficiency battle, and at its very bedrock base principles, Malifaux is a game of resource management, and the player that better uses their resources to get VP wins. So bringing mi models the do things like blast dmg can help clear out low wound models that are clumped up.

Another tactic that can work well against summoners, that works, but can often feel like it isn't is to keep direct high pressure on the summoner. Summoning takes resources, and if they are spending those resources staying alive, then they aren't using them for summoning. The dreamer is tricky because his defensive tech is a built in trigger, but the concept is the same.

If you can mention what master you are favoring and what models you have available, as well as what you are commonly seeing from your opponent, the community might be able to give more than just the general advice I have given here.

[ChirpOTK]

Well on turn one he brings on the twins and they immediately heal to full, turn to he puts madness and alps on the table, turn three he likely brings back the twin I kill, or something else. So its really like extra models right away because 14 points in turn one, they activate and heal,and he can give them fast to fix the slow...

 

i have been playing Lucius with dashell 2 riflemen, brutal emissary a lawyer and doppelgänger and death Marshall.

[ChirpOTK]

Woah what dashel upgrade and how do I get it?

[Fetid Strumpet]

It's in the Wave 4 upgrade pack that just came out at gen con. 

http://www.thewarstore.com/product110715.html

Let's Dashel make an opposed walk duel once a turn against a model within close range, I forget how close, to summon a guild guard.

[ChirpOTK]

That sounds pretty interesting. I really don't take many upgrades at all. I have the first arsenal deck coming in the mail, now I'm going to order that one.

[Four_N_Six]

The strengths of the Dreamer can also be his downfall in a summoning build.  If headhunter is in the pool, or hunting party, he's going to have a bad time.  If you have anything that can throw out blasts, you can take stuff down fairly easily since they only come in at 1 wound.

It's a jerk move, but be mindful of placement when he summons things in.  In a friendly game, you'd want to give him the option of taking it back, but in the case of summoning the twins, the Dreamer summons something in, and then they take damage down to 1 wound.  Most other summoners specify that they come in at 1, but the Dreamer makes them suffer, which means if he places something wrong, Black Blood will activate and do a ton of damage to anything nearby.

Another thing for the twins are the Distract type schemes, where you give a condition to them to score points.  Hit 1 twin with it, and the other gets it, really giving you an AP boost for scoring.  If you have anything that can paralyze or slow, that's your friend against the twins.

Insidious Madness are fast, but they're also easy to kill.  Their Df stat is their only really good thing they have going.  Incorporeal is good, but it doesn't do all that much when a model only has 3 wounds to start with when it's at full.  So on a Sh or Ml, you do 5 damage and it's dead (I'd recommend shooting it).

Like it's been said, though, having more models doesn't win the game.  If you can focus on scoring points, then his master is essentially using his AP to do nothing but summon models.  Those models are fine and all, but the Dreamer is capable of a Hell of a lot more than summoning.  If you can get those points locked down, you can consider yourself lucky he isn't using Dreamer's AP more effectively.

Also, Chompy is way more dangerous looking than he is.  Df 5 isn't very good, and his terrifying is the only defensive ability he has.  So if Chompy ever gets out, throw something strong at it before it can activate and it's probably dead.  It has to come in with low wounds to begin with, so you don't have to do much more beyond that to finish him off.  In my personal experience, the threat of Chompy against a player is more dangerous than Chompy actually ends up being.

[TheTrans]

I will back up the Twin summoning to me is a little broken as there really isn't any downside to doing it first every turn (just like Ressers and turn 1 Hanged *yawn*).

 

But as a Guild player (started with Hoffman and my main opponent was a Dreamer crew) just run your strats and schemes. My opponent would normally just start to obsess over summoning and summon for the sake of it instead of actually getting schemes done.

So as everyone has said, focus on your schemes and strats and you'll pull through. Or pick up a Sonnia box and proxy some Witchling Thralls and proceed to take the dreamer and all his models off!

[Ludvig]

I have played for years and I still struggle against summoners in interference. I'm not at all sure how the summoning mechanic is considered balanced in that strat. masters like Ramos, Dreamer and Kirai seem to do very well in those. In other strategies summoning is a bit more manageable. Try to do the strategy and schemes by engaging as little as possible and keep a close eye on how you can deny their points. If you can alpha-strike the summoner so they don't get to summon you have  an advantage since a lot of summoning masters usually come with lists that are designed around summoning and won't be effective without it.

The boring answer is to not play Lucius since he is among the worst masters in the game but there is something inherently wrong in giving that advice. I will echo the above sentiment that Sonnia does a lot better against Dreamer since even if he pushes the attack to a friendly model she will likely just blast back onto him. Burning against hard to kill models is also very handy.

If you're sticking with Lucius, (which you should since he is awesome in his own way!) you need to hope interference isn't flipped since that is basically an automatic 4vp extra for the Dreamer and something like 0-1 VP for Lucius if your opponent isn't doing something very wrong. A lawyer adding fees to one twin will make them both gain it, do that two or three times and they will start to look a bit stressed. Same thing with Lucius' red tape condition. If hunting party is in the pool you should be able to do it easily against summoning dreamer, just remember that Lucius can't support henchmen and enforcers and they need to be the ones making the kill. Soften stuff up with minions and ping the last wound with Dashel and and executioner perhaps. Hard to kill actually makes that easier for you since there is no chance of accidentaly killing stuff that has it. Beware of stitched together since they gain reactivate, the fact that most guardsmen has companion or accomplice (on an upgrade) makes it easier since you can get the opponent down to one wound and then chain activate into a model that kills it before it can reactivate. 

Very good minions for Lucius include: hunters, freikorp trappers and witchling thralls. Austringers and wardens are also very nice and a lot easier to buy. In some games it's a lot less important to spam models so you have a better chance of getting your points even if they outnumber you something mad. Schemes with a lot of markers are usually nice for Lucius and most condition schemes are easy for him since he can make minions move in to put them on the enemy. When they "tag" you back, you can either kill your own tagged models with devil's deal or trade places with them to remove the conditions from your own models with what lackeys are for.

Hope that helps!

[ChirpOTK]

Hopefully Witchling thralls come out soon. Everyone has told me they're incredible, but I don't like proxying models. I can never even get to the dreamer when we play He just walks to a 1 inch wall or barrier, stands behind it the entire game and summons his entire new army in front of it. He takes the upgrade that lets him draw 3 cards and discard 3 so he usually easily has what he needs to summon whatever he wants, and I can never get the jump on one wound models that he summons because he activates last after I have finished everything, then proceeds to summon and heal up all the stuff he summoned with the dreamers ability.

[Claymore65]

7 hours ago, ChirpOTK said:

Hopefully Witchling thralls come out soon. Everyone has told me they're incredible, but I don't like proxying models. I can never even get to the dreamer when we play He just walks to a 1 inch wall or barrier, stands behind it the entire game and summons his entire new army in front of it.

I may not be understanding this correctly, but shouldn't the Dreamer need Line of Sight to wherever he's summoning? If so, he can't just summon his models 6" away from behind the wall. He would at least need to summon them behind or adjacent to the wall, which means they might have to spend valuable AP moving into position. Or he might need LOS, which means you might be able to get some potshots at him. Normally in this game, actions don't ignore LOS unless it specifically states that. If your opponent is summoning his nightmares directly into your crew from out of LOS, that might be a source of your problems.

I don't really play against the dreamer much, so I may be totally wrong about that.

[ChirpOTK]

I thought that too, but no where on the dreamer's summoning ability does it say it needs LOS, so I never even see the little guy, he just pops up nightmares six inches away when I play against him yeah. If he needed LOS to summon things it might be a bit better because at least I can pressure him a bit then.

[Squirrelich]

LoS is required for summoning actions (it's in the basic rule book). However, if he is summoning a HT 2 model the HT 1 wall will not block line of sight to it (as HT2 models can see HT1 models over a HT1 wall, and visa versa. A HT1 wall will only block LoS between two HT1 models). But that also means that if you have any HT2 ranged models they can shoot at the Dreamer from over the wall (though the wall will probably give a cover bonus from the attack).

Edit: Adding references
Pg. 60 Basic Rulebook "If summoning is the result of an Action, the summoned model must be placed within LoS to the acting model"
pg. 73 Blocking Terrain "Objects with the blocking trait cannot be seen through, and therefore block LoS (see pg. 40) if the Ht of the terrain is equal to or greater than the Ht of the models attempting to see through it."

[ChirpOTK]

I checked the errata and saw that LOS thing so that's good I can tell him that when we play again, but the dreamer is height 1, so he can't see over 1 inch walls I would assume.

[ChirpOTK]

3 hours ago, 7thSquirrel said:

pg. 73 Blocking Terrain "Objects with the blocking trait cannot be seen through, and therefore block LoS (see pg. 40) if the Ht of the terrain is equal to or greater than the Ht of the models attempting to see through it."

This seems to be pretty clear. A 1 inch model can't see over a 1 inch wall.

[Squirrelich]

13 minutes ago, ChirpOTK said:

This seems to be pretty clear. A 1 inch model can't see over a 1 inch wall.

Models, emphasis on the plural part. If one model is taller it does not meet the condition of "equal or greater then the height of the models" and does not block line of sight between the models.

[ChirpOTK]

1 minute ago, Torsul said:

"[...]of the MODELS [...]" - plural

Ht1 Model A can't see Ht1 Model B if both Bases are completly blocked by Ht1 Obstacle C between them.

But Ht1 Model A can see Ht2 Model D (or bigger) even through Ht1 Obstacle C is in between them, because Obstacle C isn't equal or smaller then the Ht of the attempting Models.

Just like Squirrel wrote.

 

€: git beaten to it :/

That's ridiculous, seems like a major oversight if the dreamer is base contact on a wall. Just summon whatever you want and I can't see you.

[ChirpOTK]

That makes sense I guess, just very strange if he's touching the wall....

[Squirrelich]

Think of it less of can he see past the wall? and more of can he see the guy standing over it? He can't see the ground on the other side, he is too short. But the rules only care about seeing the other models, even the ones he is summoning, and those are taller than the wall

[Fetid Strumpet]

I might just not be remembering it correctly, but how exactly is a height 1 wall blocking LoS to the Ht 2 models he summons? From My understanding of the FAQ entry on summoning the summoner needs LoS to the summoned model... A Ht 1 wall won't block LoS to any Ht 2+ model that he summons.

[ChirpOTK]

I had assumed wrongly I suppose that a height 1model couldnt see over a 1 inch wall. I wasn't aware the LOS rules were so different in this game. I'll have to get used to it.

 

[solkan]

15 hours ago, ChirpOTK said:

Hopefully Witchling thralls come out soon. Everyone has told me they're incredible, but I don't like proxying models. I can never even get to the dreamer when we play He just walks to a 1 inch wall or barrier, stands behind it the entire game and summons his entire new army in front of it. He takes the upgrade that lets him draw 3 cards and discard 3 so he usually easily has what he needs to summon whatever he wants, and I can never get the jump on one wound models that he summons because he activates last after I have finished everything, then proceeds to summon and heal up all the stuff he summoned with the dreamers ability.

If by "summons his entire army in front of it" you mean that the Dreamer is on side of the blocking terrain, and the summoned models arrive on the other side outside of line of sight, that's no longer permitted due to the September errata:

Quote

Pg 51, “Summon” Section: Change the text of the third paragraph to: “Summoned models must be placed within LoS to the model whose Action or Ability summoned them. In addition, the summoned model belongs to the Crew of the model whose Action or Ability summoned them, and is under the control of that model’s player (regardless of which player controlled the summoning model at the time of the summoning).” (9/14/16)

That requirement for line of sight is not overridden by the text of the Dreamer's action "Summon the named model within range and deal damage to it equal to its Wd minus one, which may not be reduced." because Kirai uses the same sort of language that doesn't mention line of sight

Quote

Malevolence: After a friendly Living or Undead model within 6 suffers damage from an enemy Attack Action, this model may discard a Soulstone or a card to summon Ikiryo into base contact with the Attacking model.

to summon her models, and the instructions are:

Quote

96) Does Kirai need to summon Ikiryo within her LoS when summoning it with the Malevolence Ability?

Yes. Actions and Abilities which summon require LoS (this can be found in the Errata). (9/14/16)

In other words, to summon a model outside of line of sight, the action or ability would have to explicitly say it could do so.

And if the Dreamer is only "hiding" behind a Ht1 wall, that's not actually hiding from Ht2+ models. 

Quote

The Ht of the acting model, target, and intervening objects can effect whether or not the acting model has LoS. If the blocking object (terrain or model) between the Attacker and target has Ht lower than the Attacker or target’s Ht, then the blocking object is ignored for LoS quality (but not cover).

In other words, a Ht2 model can see the Dreamer (Ht1) if the intervening blocking object (the wall) is only Ht1.

If the intervening wall is Ht2, then the only thing that could see the Dreamer (and the only things he could summon on the other side) would be Ht3 or greater models.

 

[Ludvig]

People need to get summoning right. Especially players playing a summoning master should read those rules carefully several times so they don't inadvertedly cheat.

Summoning out of LoS with an action has always been against the rules as per the summoning part of the basic rules. Kirai summons with an ability which was previously not covered by the rules. The new errata/FaQ clarifies that it was intended for you to need LoS even when summoning with abilities.

Since ht 1 walls only block LoS if both models are ht 1 that wall would let almost anyone shoot or charge him and would allow him to summon anything except alps and daydreams (I think) on the other side of the wall.

*Not trying to sound aggressive, I just need to emphasize the key words here since they are easy to get wrong  

[Adran]

Yes, It has always been the case the Dreamer needs to see what he has summoned. 

Line of Sight is a 2 way process, so that (baring special model rules) if one model can see a model, it can in turn be seen by that model. You use the ht of the tallest model to work out which bits of terrain are ignored for Line of sight purposes,  once you get used to it, its pretty straight forward. (Vantage points are much less so, and can be counter intuative and complicated, but outside that, its fairly easy).

Its really easy to mis-read something or miss a sentance, but you two managed to make your guild guns a lot worse, and the dreamers summonings a little better, so hopefully next time you play you'll find the game much closer. Its not impossible for the dreamer to hide from your guns, but it should be hard, and it will hugly reduce his locations he can summon to.