Carrion Emissary, My Little Helper, and Mindless Zombies

[benjoewoo]

I couldn't find a thread on it, and don't plan to start a war, but I'd like to see what the main lines of reasoning are for interpreting the following interaction:

1. Carrion Emissary at the beginning of its activation uses My Little Helper, which draws a card and allows it to use two 0s, even if they're the same.

2. Carrion Emissary casts Shards of Kythera twice, in separate locations so that no 30mm base could touch all 4 markers placed by the two 0 actions.

3. End of Turn----?

Essentially, what have people interpreted the Mindless zombie summon text to mean? Do you get 2 MZ total, 1 MZ, or no MZ because it can't touch all 4 markers--essentially rendering the summon related text useless?

Not to start a flame war--just trying to see the lines of reasoning supporting 0, 1, or 2 MZ summoning thoughts because I am unsure about where the find the posts. Also it'll aggregate the thoughts under a topic addressing the subject in the rules forum. 

[Kadeton]

The wording on Shards of Kythera is difficult. My own interpretation (the one I think makes the most sense) is that under normal circumstances you place the two Shards. At the end of the turn you place one Mindless Zombie in base contact with one of the Shards, then remove all Shards.

In the My Little Helper case, you therefore place four Shards. At the end of the turn, just like normal, you place one Mindless Zombie in base contact with one of the Shards, then remove all Shards.

The basic reasoning is that the portion of the text of the ability that deals with summoning Zombies seems more like a description of what Shards do, rather than something that the model does. Otherwise, if the Emissary were killed before the end of the turn, the Markers would remain on the board forever and no Zombie(s) would be summoned... and I don't think that sounds right.

I'm going with that for now because it's the least powerful option that still makes sense (I don't buy the idea that the Zombie has to be in base contact with ALL markers, that seems very unlikely to be the intention to me), and that's often been the way these things have gone in the past. I don't think it's a more valid interpretation than placing two Zombies (one in contact with each group of Shards) but until Wyrd give an official clarification I'll stick with the "soft" option.

Edit: As of the November FAQ, this is now the official position as well!

[Ludvig]

The november FAQ is up to end this discussion so no need to rule differently at different tournaments:

 

99) If my Carrion Emissary casts Shards of Kythera, how many Mindless Zombies do I get before the Markers are removed?

You get one Mindless Zombie from the Action, regardless of the placement of the Markers. If you manage to use the Action twice in a turn, you would still only get one Mindless Zombie because it removes all Markers. If you have Markers in different locations, you can choose which Marker(s) to summon your Mindless Zombie to.

[Ludvig]

I've been ruling it like Kadeton describes so you get one zombie touching any point of the four markers. It's nowhere near raw but it's a reasonable compromise.

[Adran]

I would agree with Kadeton. 

I think there is no valid argument that allows you to get 2 Zombies. Even if you fell that the second Summon a zombie effect should happen, by the time you resolve it, there are no shards to place the zombie next to (because the first summon removed all the shards) so the effect fizzles. 

[solkan]

59 minutes ago, Purple Armadillo said:

I don't play the Emissary like this but I'm curious as to why no one has played Devils advocate and looked at it this way.

From the stickied forum rules:  http://themostexcellentandawesomeforumever-wyrd.com/topic/103095-how-to-answer-rules-questions-please-read/

Quote

5) The devil doesn't need an advocate
If everyone agrees how a rule works, including you, don't suggest alternate ways the rule could be interpreted to take the contrary view 'for the sake of argument'. There's no need to try and create cosmic balance of discussion and this is confusing for new players.

That's why.

[Purple Armadillo]

Seeing as there isn't a consensus I didn't see the issue.

Thanks though 

[sharpobjects]

Hrm. I have been allowing one mindless zombie to be placed in btb with each group of shard markers. One cast of the spell you get one mindless zombie, two casts of the spell (my little helper) you would get two total mindless zombies. 

Although it is nice to be able to place 4 shard markers using My Little Helper the main reason Resser players would for go the 0SS upgrade for My Little Helper on the Emissary is for that extra mindless zombie. 

I guess the crux is "may be summoned in base contact with them". Does "them" mean all the shard markers on the table or groups of shard markers in the case of casting the spell twice with My Little Helper? It is clear when you only cast the spell once you get one zombie for the two shard markers on the table. I ruled at events that the text in the spell was to resolve each group of shard markers so one zombe per group for a total of two when using My Little Helper. 

I also ruled that the zombie only has to be in btb with one of the shard markers not both. It would be nice to get an official explanation with regards to My Little Helper and the spell Shard of Kythera. The player is giving up the 0SS cost emissary upgrade for the 1SS My Little Helper which I felt was a fair trade off for that one extra mindless zombie early game. If that interpretation is incorrect I think Resser players would reasses purchasing that upgrade for the emissary in the future. 

[sharpobjects]

On 10/4/2016 at 7:53 AM, Fetid Strumpet said:

I've been ruling it you get two zombies, and until they clarify with FAQ that is how I will continue to rule it in all events and Demos I run.

Fetid are you saying 2 zombies for one cast of the spell? or one zombie for each cast of the spell using My Little Helper?

[sharpobjects]

On 10/21/2016 at 11:23 PM, Fetid Strumpet said:

1 zombie per cast. So at the moment the only way to get 2 zombies in 1 urn, using the shards of kythera, that I know of would be to use my little helper.

At the moment unless they clarify in the FAQ I'm ruling in my events that if you use my little helper and successfully cast shards twice you'll get two zombies. 

ok thanks for the clarification. I do the same until Wyrd says otherwise.

[Ludvig]

On 22 oktober 2016 at 1:27 AM, Bobdog132 said:

 By casting it twice due to the upgrade , it is two separate actions, so you are doing the (0) action twice. It is refering to "them" in the action as two shards. So in resolving, you perform the action once and remove two shards and place one mindless zombie. Then repeat. The way it is written, it is only designed to be done once so you would only place two shards on an action and remove two at the completion of that action at the end of the turn. So at the end of the turn, you have to complete two separate actions. 

At the end of the turn there are no"actions", there are only shard markers that say you remove them. If someone had wanted to reference specifically the two markers placed by the one action it would have said "both" to futureproof it. To use "all" in reference to something there is only two of is wrong in my understanding of english, "both" is to be preferred for refererencing something of which there is two. That tells me that "all" is futureproofing for the possibilty of placing more than two markers without getting more zombies.

The ambiguity is more revolving around "a zombie in base contact with them" which could be one near each or one touching both. To make it super clear the wording "a zombie in base contact with each marker" could have been used but that isn't an argument either way since super clear language wasn't used. It would be helpful if the devs clarified their intention and what way the upgrade was playtested.

I totally get why someone would rule it as getting a lot of zombies but not because it is the logical way to interpret the ruletext as written but rather because you feel it logical given your interpretation of the spirit/intent of the interaction. 

I'm not trying to change your interpretation or ruling for your events but I don't want future players reading this discussion and saying "it was unanimously resolved as meaning a shitton of zombies".

[SunTsu]

23 hours ago, sharpobjects said:

ok thanks for the clarification. I do the same until Wyrd says otherwise.

You can't take the answer you like, even if it's not the most voted and supported one, and use it as "the official" answer. Overmore this position is unsupported by the wording in the rule, as @Ludvig very well pointed out:

17 hours ago, Ludvig said:

At the end of the turn there are no"actions", there are only shard markers that say you remove them. If someone had wanted to reference specifically the two markers placed by the one action it would have said "both" to futureproof it. To use "all" in reference to something there is only two of is wrong in my understanding of english, "both" is to be preferred for refererencing something of which there is two. That tells me that "all" is futureproofing for the possibilty of placing more than two markers without getting more zombies.

It is very clear, not just to me but to everyone speaks even a basic English, that ALL means, really, ALL...

And at least, even if someone may think that the intent would be different and the rule was written badly (but it would be only a personal interpretation, the rule stays always written the same), for a precautional principle we should however play it in the less powerful way, as wisely suggested by @Kadeton: at the very start of this discussion:

On 09/27/2016 at 1:30 AM, Kadeton said:

The wording on Shards of Kythera is difficult. My own interpretation (the one I think makes the most sense) is that under normal circumstances you place the two Shards. At the end of the turn you place one Mindless Zombie in base contact with one of the Shards, then remove all Shards.

In the My Little Helper case, you therefore place four Shards. At the end of the turn, just like normal, you place one Mindless Zombie in base contact with one of the Shards, then remove all Shards.

The basic reasoning is that the portion of the text of the ability that deals with summoning Zombies seems more like a description of what Shards do, rather than something that the model does. Otherwise, if the Emissary were killed before the end of the turn, the Markers would remain on the board forever and no Zombie(s) would be summoned... and I don't think that sounds right.

I'm going with that for now because it's the least powerful option that still makes sense (I don't buy the idea that the Zombie has to be in base contact with ALL markers, that seems very unlikely to be the intention to me), and that's often been the way these things have gone in the past. I don't think it's a more valid interpretation than placing two Zombies (one in contact with each group of Shards) but until Wyrd give an official clarification I'll stick with the "soft" option.

 

[SunTsu]

11 hours ago, Fetid Strumpet said:

I never claimed it was the official answer. I merely answered a question about how I'm ruling it in any events I run. If you disagree there isn't anything stopping you from ruling differently in any events you run. The fact is the rules of the game, as stated by their until recently lead designer, are more intent based and common sense based than purely mechanistic. That of course leads to issues, but if you were to play the game purely 100% RAW the game wouldn't actually function because of how some of the wording in the base rules on certain things is phrased or is omitted.

If you read my posts, you surely will see that I'm not a RAW only supporter. But in this situation I can't see a clear intention in this rule as you claim. If you want to explain from where you extract a so clear clue about the intention of this rule I can also change my mind. At the moment, since the intention is unclear and unreadable as I can see, we should go with raw, since this rule works well as written without any problem.

Edited October 29, 2016 by SunTsu
Edited for clarity.

[Fetid Strumpet]

I think you misunderstand. I'm not trying to convince you of anything, and it matters little to me how you personally interpret the rule or intend to use it. The only time it would matter at all to me is if you were the TO of an event I was attending, and I would ask in advance to understand how you were using it. In a game if my opponent disagreed with my interpretation and we couldn't find consensus We'd follow the rules and flip off for who would win that round's interpretation and then move on.

This is a definitively grey area in the rules specifically because intent and wording are unclear. If it was definitely clear there would be absolutely no need for discussion. Does anyone feel the need to discuss what a walk stat of 4 really means? No, because it's very clear.

 I've said you have a potentially valid interpretation of the rules, but then, so does the person who states you don't get any zombies unless you can somehow place it in b2b with every shard marker created, which as far as intent goes I would argue is clearly non-sense, but could be argued as RAW. 

So let's also not pretend Wyrd is exceptionally good are writing rules that are clear, concise and without ambiguity. They've even had instances of different wordings for the same abilities, and the FAQ is filled with instances that both support RAW and basically effectively errata the actual wording for intent. Any game of Malifaux is going to have some degree of wiggling to make the game work, and that's ok.

So for myself I tend to apply the common sense filter, which the until recent lead designer said you should do. MLH gives you the ability to take a 0 action twice a turn. Getting a Zombie is an effect of using that 0 action. Does it break the game to get an extra zombie to the point I believe the wording on MLH was intentionally phrased the way it was to prevent it, I don't personally believe so, and have not in any game I've played with it encountered a situation that would lead me to come to that conclusion. Does getting the extra zombie and the effects of the upgrade exceed the expected value from similarly costed upgrades, absolutely not. I'd personally still rather have access to imbued Energies or Oath Keeper or Recalled training than access to MLH, and they all cost the same. So for me I regard it as a case of bad phrasing and the intent is clear to me.

Could I be wrong, absolutely. But so could you, and there is nothing inherently noble or more correct in ruling it in any particular way. I'm not more correct to rule it my way, nor are you. They are just looking at different ways to interpret the data and both are valid unless and until Aaron decides to add it to the FAQ and rule officially one way or another. Short of that nothing will convince me to demo it, rule on it, or explain the rules as I understand them any differently, as I have actually put alot of thought into this. I assume you have done the same, so I would expect the same of you, even though I don't personally agree with your interpretation. 

 

[sharpobjects]

The Faq has spoken. You get one mindless zombie no matter how many times you cast the spell.

 

Case closed. 

[trikk]

"At the end of the Turn, remove all friendly
Shard Markers. Before removing the Markers, a Mindless Zombie may be summoned
in base contact with them."

and not 

"At the end of the Turn, remove all friendly
Shard Markers. Before removing the Markers, a Mindless Zombie may be summoned
in base contact with at least one marker."

I say the MZ has to be in contact with all friendly markers.

[Fetid Strumpet]

I never claimed it was the official answer. I merely answered a question about how I'm ruling it in any events I run. If you disagree there isn't anything stopping you from ruling differently in any events you run. The fact is the rules of the game, as stated by their until recently lead designer, are more intent based and common sense based than purely mechanistic. That of course leads to issues, but if you were to play the game purely 100% RAW the game wouldn't actually function because of how some of the wording in the base rules on certain things is phrased or is omitted. 

At present there is no official answer, nor the clearly obvious answer and there is no telling which way Wyrd will rule if they even feel this question merits an answer. 

Your interpretation is perfectly logical and understandable, as is mine. At present there is no basis for definitively stating it should for certain be played one way or the other. 

For myself, as I have considered the arguments made in this thread, and have made up my particular mind on this issue after considering them I will be ruling the way that makes the most sense to me and will continue to do so regardless of anyone else's opinion until Wyrd decides to make an official response in the FAQ.

You of course are perfectly able, if you run events, to rule it the other way. It's just one of those grey ruling areas that if you play outside your particular area you'd be best served to ask your TO how they will be ruling it in advance if you plan on using that particular combo.

[Purple Armadillo]

"At the end of the Turn, remove all friendly
Shard Markers. Before removing the Markers, aMindless Zombie may be summoned
in base contact with them."

 

I don't play the Emissary like this but this is how I read the card.

The plural "them" at the end of the summoning portion is regards to the plural Shard Markers you place.  Therefore it  could be viewed so that you get two Mindless Zombies with a single cast of the spell and four with MLH.

If the two templates created a single "Shard Marker" then for sure you would only get a single zombie but it specifically states that you place two "Shard Markers" then place a zombie in contact with them upon removing all Shard Markers. It should be written, "place a Mindless Zombie in base contact with both" if the intention was that you only got one zombie per pair,.

Like I said, I don't play it like this but I feel that as written this is a safe read.

 

edited to not break forum rules.

Edited October 14, 2016 by Purple Armadillo

[Bobdog132]

By casting it twice due to the upgrade , it is two separate actions, so you are doing the (0) action twice. It is refering to "them" in the action as two shards. So in resolving, you perform the action once and remove two shards and place one mindless zombie. Then repeat. The way it is written, it is only designed to be done once so you would only place two shards on an action and remove two at the completion of that action at the end of the turn. So at the end of the turn, you have to complete two separate actions. 

[Fetid Strumpet]

1 zombie per cast. So at the moment the only way to get 2 zombies in 1 urn, using the shards of kythera, that I know of would be to use my little helper.

At the moment unless they clarify in the FAQ I'm ruling in my events that if you use my little helper and successfully cast shards twice you'll get two zombies. 

[Fetid Strumpet]

I've been ruling it you get two zombies, and until they clarify with FAQ that is how I will continue to rule it in all events and Demos I run.