Best crew box for a tournament

[bleedge05]

So I'll be playing in a tournament next weekend in Brea, hosted by Mario. Mario always throws fantastic tournaments and I highly recommend that if you get the chance to go out and play some games there you definitely should. This tournament however has some interesting rules that really limit crew construction. Namely, you must bring a single master for the entire tournament and you must field their crew box in every game (plus whatever else to fill in to 50 points). My question to you all is, who are the most powerful masters under this given constraint. This has to take into account flexibility of a master as well as how versatile and adaptable their crew box is. For example; I might say Nicodem is an extremely versatile master that can handle most scheme pools but the requirement to hire 3 punk zombies is less than ideal and in my opinion knocks him out of the top slots.

 

In my mind some of the best masters are:

Jacob Lynch-extremely strong core models and none that are a "tax"

Rasputina- she runs very well with her core models and doesn't suffer a tax, she can also compete fairly well in any schemes 

Ramos-All strong models that Ramos typically brings regardless

Seamus-Again, strong with his thematic crew and honestly, you can't go wrong with three belles

Kirai-very strong master who has to take a ten point "tax" for onryo but they can function as scheme runners and harassers 

Som'er- strong theme crew and nothing he wouldn't bring normally anyways as well as a capable master who can fill many different roles 

Because I'm sure some of my opponents will read this I won't be laying out my own devious plans ? for the tournament but I'm curious what everyone's thoughts are on the top masters for this format.

 

Thanks for reading, cheers!

[Four_N_Six]

Som'er for sure as a gremlin.  Lenny isn't essential in his crew, but it's also not a hinderance by any means.  I'll also vote in Zipp.  Although I do think that 3 Iron Skeeters is a bit much, I think it's doable with all 3.  Wong isn't a bad choice, but his totem isn't the best option for him.

For Neverborn, definitely Jacob Lynch.  He's not my favorite master to play, but when I use him I do use his entire box and fill out the rest.  He's probably the only one from NB that I play I would consider.  Using Titania's whole box is very expensive and doesn't leave much room for extra models.  I've never really liked Candy, so that would be a waste with Pandora.  I never use Lilith's box at all.  Sometimes Barbaros, but not really even with her.

[Bengt]

1 hour ago, bleedge05 said:

Ramos-All strong models that Ramos typically brings regardless

If you have to hire every model in the crewbox Ramos is just terrible in my opinion. Joss, Howard, Brass are fine but all those Steam Arachnids? It's 42 to 50 SS out the door (and hiring two swarms is awful), leaving next to nothing for other models. And you would have to own an impressive amount of arachnids if you want to summon any.  

1 hour ago, bleedge05 said:

Rasputina- she runs very well with her core models and doesn't suffer a tax, she can also compete fairly well in any schemes 

In a normal game I would only take Wendigo and a single Ice Gamin from her box. Almost every Frozen Heart model not in her crewbox are significantly better than those in it.

McMourning (Res) seems decent to me. 30 SS is a bit much but at least it's all in his poison theme.

But Kirai is very tempting, Onryo isn't, as you say, all that strong, but with a base of only 14 SS it's a very flexible option.

[Parker Barrows]

Crossroads Seven. I've ran a whole tourney with just that box. Just go Rezzers so you can summon some Guild Autopsies in case Hunting Party comes up (or a faction with a 2 point hire).

[Dogmantra]

In this kind of format, "kill first scheme later" masters and crews tend to be a bit more successful since they care less about the scheme pool and therefore don't suffer as much from being a fixed list. Of course, since you have to take the whole crew box you probably won't see Sonnia with papa loco and death marshalls which is I guess the best example of kill first scheme later.

The other thing that affects this specific format imo is redundancy - most of the time, you're not going to want to hire all the copies of a minion you get in a crew box. There are exceptions, e.g. Som'er and people have mentioned doing it with Lynch.

So imo two of the better masters for this format would probably be Perdita and Ophelia. Strong, straightforward killy crews with no forced copies of any models.

[Flinroz]

10 hours ago, Four_N_Six said:

Som'er for sure as a gremlin.  Lenny isn't essential in his crew, but it's also not a hinderance by any means.  I'll also vote in Zipp.  Although I do think that 3 Iron Skeeters is a bit much, I think it's doable with all 3.  Wong isn't a bad choice, but his totem isn't the best option for him.

Zipp is likely who I'll be going with. Been practicing over the last month and he's in the lead for me. Wong is a close second though.

[Bengt]

7 hours ago, Dogmantra said:

don't suffer as much from being a fixed list.

Is it fixed list? I got the impression that you only had to take the crewbox models in every game and could fill up with whatever you wanted in each game.

[bleedge05]

It's not fixed lists completely, only the crew box is set, so you can change up your last 10-20 points each game 

[Dogmantra]

8 minutes ago, Bengt said:

Is it fixed list? I got the impression that you only had to take the crewbox models in every game and could fill up with whatever you wanted in each game.

Well, it's fixed enough that the point stands imo. Unless you take Kirai who I think would probably also do very well since she can play almost unrestricted.

[Wolfpact]

I'd second Lynch. There's nothing not worth taking in that box.

 

'Dita is really strong out-of-box too, to my experience.

 

Likewise Mister Jones.

 

I'd suggest Parker but you know, probably not allowed and not easily-accessed. He's got a great core box though, with a good bit of wiggle room - 27 'Stones or so before Upgrades/Cache (and I find Parker can play fast and loose with both at game start) and the more I play with my Bandidos the more I love them for their point cost; I've yet to find any reason to complain for having Mad Dog or Doc along, either. Especially Doc. 3 Stones for such a largely-reliable healer...

[bleedge05]

I thought perdita would be good too but isn't she quite limited if she's using the whole box set? They're expensive; that can't leave a lot of room for any decent scheme runners or minions depending on the schem pool. Maybe if she just goes for the early kills and then hopes she can reach late game before time to score? 

 

Im not sure if the twisted fates crews are allowed or not but I'm suspecting they are. I have only ever played Parker once though and none of the others so I have very little experience in that regard. 

 

So there's a few votes for lynch and kirai and perdita. Haven't seen much love for Arcanists or outcasts (besides maybe Parker). Also ten thunder I guess. Although lynch psuedo counts, I rarely see him played outside neverborn. 

[benjoewoo]

Hope to make the tournament myself. Most of the Wave 4 masters are viable out of the box. The large exception I'd see would be Sandeep and Asami since they're heavy summoners.

On that note, Seamus and McM are fairly strong with having models they would hire anyway and the ability to run Spare Parts for additional summoning. Seamus' box is basically his normal crew + an extra belle, but an extra belle isn't terrible at 5 SS. McM is probably slightly less ideal, since he needs to hire 2x Nurses, but again, 5 SS model as an extra. The canine remains may not be ideal over a crooligan or necropunk, but it can run schemes well enough.

The best faction for the format is probably guild. Most of their crew boxes have the models you'd take anyway, including totem, with only one somewhat questionable model. Even Nellie, who runs 3x field reporters that don't have melee and trigger based damage, isn't too bad because you could just hire 2 or so beaters with upgrades and still do fine. At least Guild isn't halfway invalidated faction wise by the rules--Molly Nico, and Yan Lo are essentially unplayable in Ressers with 12-21 SS locked into Crooligans, Punk Zombies, Ashigaru, and/or Chiaki. 

 

[Myyrä]

13 hours ago, benjoewoo said:

The best faction for the format is probably guild. Most of their crew boxes have the models you'd take anyway, including totem, with only one somewhat questionable model. Even Nellie, who runs 3x field reporters that don't have melee and trigger based damage, isn't too bad because you could just hire 2 or so beaters with upgrades and still do fine. At least Guild isn't halfway invalidated faction wise by the rules--Molly Nico, and Yan Lo are essentially unplayable in Ressers with 12-21 SS locked into Crooligans, Punk Zombies, Ashigaru, and/or Chiaki. 

 

I somehow fail to see how being forced to bring 3 Wastrels or Field Reporters is any better than being forced to bring Crooligans or Ashigaru.

[Astrella]

What's it with people and these tournaments that end up just hugely benefitting one master over the other. If you want interesting crew decisions make custom strategies and schemes, don't force people into taking certain stuff. :/

[benjoewoo]

5 hours ago, Myyrä said:

I somehow fail to see how being forced to bring 3 Wastrels or Field Reporters is any better than being forced to bring Crooligans or Ashigaru.

3 Wastrels will not really help too much relative to Crooligans or Ashigaru. I don't know much about them, so I won't contest this and assume it's true.

I've played against Nellie and watched her games several times. At least Field reporters aren't terrible at running schemes with avg Wk 5. They're also not affected by engagement for using their printed abilities and they have a Ca with good effects for damage and manipulation. They can also scheme run while being anti-scheme runners with an action to simply convert enemy scheme markers on a 9. Ideal? Not really, but Nellie would like to hire probably 2 in her builds since she cares about field reporters--e.g. cheat damage against them. Phiona also gives them a tome trigger, adding to synergy assuming you use it. I don't believe the tournament requires you use all the box upgrades, just the models themselves, so maybe you'll run that upgrade for Phiona, maybe not.

But, I would say they're better than crooligans. Crooligans deny a large number of interaction actions for Molly Turn 1 assuming that's her plan and will necessitate a large shift in crew composition, since she probably won't want more than 1 crooligan in most builds. Ashigaru aren't bad necessarily, and maybe you'll want to hire 1 or 2, but Yan Lo is forced to hire 3 of them and Chiaki, meaning 21 SS is locked into 4 models that won't really provide great combat or scheme running abilities. I'm saying they're less combat oriented even though Ashigaru are more defensive pieces and are anti-charge tech because on the attack, they're likely operating as chaff or stalling models rather than fighting to kill.

Also, that's only two of the 8 available Guild masters that may be hampered, one much more so than the other. Nellie experiences mild discomfort, imo. Nellie would likely want to drop the third field reporter, I have little doubt, but it's not the worst model she could be stuck with and it's not terribly expensive--Nellie's box with max upgrade slots gets to 30 SS, so she has 20 SS to spend on essentially fighting models. Molly spends less at 12 SS for the Crooligans, but unless they deploy and operate within 6" of Molly, she will not directly benefit them outside of a relatively rare Take Back the Night affected kill within 10"--but that somewhat defeats the purpose of crooligan's far off deployment and scheme running.

I'm not saying Ashigaru or Crooligans cannot shine, but in GG 2016, I don't see how on the suited schemes they're going to do too much for their respective box masters compared to the rest of the field. They're fairly sub optimal in 4 out of 5 strategies, maybe 3 out of 5 for Ashigaru, limit options more than most crew boxes for accomplishing 3 out of 4 suited schemes, and are mediocre for accomplishing Take Prisoner. The last point doesn't matter much, since most crews face the same issue, but it is something to consider in choosing a Resser master since Ressers generally like that scheme. 

[solkan]

6 hours ago, Astrella said:

What's it with people and these tournaments that end up just hugely benefitting one master over the other. If you want interesting crew decisions make custom strategies and schemes, don't force people into taking certain stuff. :/

Some people want first hand, experimental evidence for the question "What's the difference between an interesting thought exercise, and a good tournament idea?"

The other problem, as I see it, with this tournament idea is that the players that choose poorly get stuck with their choices for the entire tournament.  So you get threads like this, where the "strongest choice" is essentially the safest choice to take, decreasing the likely spread of choices. 

[benjoewoo]

I don't think it's necessarily a bad idea. The format can help new players out by "leveling" the playing field so everyone can have competitive games that aren't one-sided. It's not a good feeling when you hire 50 SS of optimized crew and your opponent is running his/her box plus useless upgrades and an enforcer/henchmen to reach 50 SS and not lose stones to start. 

Newer players usually can't compete with veteran players on skill or monetary investment. Forcing everyone to play with crew boxes can mitigate the first a bit by having everyone to play sub-optimal crews, but since new players will likely play their box anyway, it doesn't affect them too much. For the latter, having everyone to play a crew box will prevent fully optimized crew lists, mitigating veteran players who own larger collections, but it won't really affect new players. The format may not bridge the gap entirely, but it shouldn't because otherwise newer players should see higher level play and player skill will provide competitive matches more or less regardless of crew.

[bleedge05]

I think the tournament is a cool idea, it isn't the most balanced way to play and many of you are correct that it will limit your choices for competitive masters. On the other hand, it forces everyone to play outside their comfort zone and to some extent build new crews that they wouldn't have built otherwise. I for one enjoy the thought exercise and I feel that it makes the tournament very interesting albeit perhaps not the most balanced malifaux can be played. I wouldn't recommend this format for any huge tournament that is supposed to be hyper competitive but this format challenges players to come up with new ideas as to how to play their crew and how to adapt when they haven't brought the most optimized list they can bring. 

[solkan]

23 minutes ago, bleedge05 said:

I think the tournament is a cool idea, it isn't the most balanced way to play and many of you are correct that it will limit your choices for competitive masters. On the other hand, it forces everyone to play outside their comfort zone and to some extent build new crews that they wouldn't have built otherwise. I for one enjoy the thought exercise and I feel that it makes the tournament very interesting albeit perhaps not the most balanced malifaux can be played. I wouldn't recommend this format for any huge tournament that is supposed to be hyper competitive but this format challenges players to come up with new ideas as to how to play their crew and how to adapt when they haven't brought the most optimized list they can bring. 

The problem is that it doesn't really level the playing field much, if at all.

Because a new player is still going to be more likely to have to buy a new master and the support for that master, while the old player is more likely to already have the master and the support pieces.  Likewise, the older player is more likely to know what the proper choices are.  And there's still the problem of the new player choosing one of the weaker masters, and then having three bad games in a row demonstrating them the error of their ways.

I swear these sorts of tournaments are written up with the assumption that new players are masochists and enjoy suffering, or something.

 

[admiralvorkraft]

Go with Lucius, his box has plenty of variety in it, and only comes to 31ss...

/sarcasm

[Squirrelich]

3 hours ago, solkan said:

I swear these sorts of tournaments are written up with the assumption that new players are masochists and enjoy suffering, or something.

 

So what is an example of a tourney format that will level the playing field between the experienced player who has 4+ masters in a faction and the newbie who has 1-2? (Real question, looking at hosting more in the future. Have a few ideas on what I think would be fun formats, but willing to reevaluate if the pieces don't seem to fit)

[solkan]

1 hour ago, 7thSquirrel said:

So what is an example of a tourney format that will level the playing field between the experienced player who has 4+ masters in a faction and the newbie who has 1-2? (Real question, looking at hosting more in the future. Have a few ideas on what I think would be fun formats, but willing to reevaluate if the pieces don't seem to fit)

In the first tournament that I went to I only had a painted Mei Feng crew, probably around 60SS of models she could use, a green plastic Lilith Pandora crew, and just barely 50SS of Neverborn.  It was a fixed faction tournament, so my choice was basically one or other.  Limiting the other players in that tournament to a single master or two masters (to limit their choices to what I had ready) would not have made the game more accessible to me.  (I'd be willing to get in to an argument with someone as they try to explain how limiting the choices of the other people in that tournament would have made it more accessible to me.  But that's probably a topic for a different thread, and a digression in this one.)

There isn't a tournament format which does that because it's not an imbalance that the tournament format can fix.  Unless you want to declare "We're going to bring all of you in for questioning and interrogation to determine which masters you have experience using.  After we're done, you're going to be prohibited from using any of those.  And if we discover you've been researching anything beyond the scope of what a new player would be able to do, we're going to break your fingers."  Because that is the significant difference between the players.

If you want to make a format accessible to a new player you need to be honest with everyone about how the game works.  There's can be an advantage to owning more models, because that's how the game was designed.  However, it's also possible to own every model in the game and have no idea how to use those models effectively.  So if you're just starting out, it's okay to just have one or two masters, but at the same time it's important to know that some masters are more general purpose than others.

If the idea is to minimize the capital expenditure that a new player requires in order to start playing, you'd be better off making models available for loan during a game.  Or instituting a "There's no shame in proxying" policy, so that the new players can try new models before they buy in.

So two parts:

* Drumming it in to people's heads that wealth is an advantage, but all of the wealth in the world is useless to a fool.

* Remove the stigma associated with proxying/bases with the picture of the model printed on/cardboard standies showing the model.

with the optional third part that smaller games (20-25SS Henchman led games, instead of 50SS Master led games) require less effort to get in to.

 

Edited September 27, 2016 by solkan
Wrong neverborn master.

[Squirrelich]

Firstly, let me say that is all that is true for getting new players into the game, in fact more insightful than I have currently thought through. I just have to ask, what does the below have to do with tourneys?
 

1 hour ago, solkan said:

If the idea is to minimize the capital expenditure that a new player requires in order to start playing, you'd be better off making models available for loan during a game.  Or instituting a "There's no shame in proxying" policy, so that the new players can try new models before they buy in

Shouldn't that all be pre-tourney, and then the tourneys begin when they are more or less past the initial fiddling around phase with at least one list? Formats like this should (IMO) only help with the wealth issue because if smart purchases are made (from proxing and experimenting in casual) you don't need as much. Is this just a perspective difference on when people should start attending tourneys? I generally try to mark that level at "can you play fast enough to plausibly finish in the time limit?". If you don't know your models well enough to do that it generally causes headaches in timed formats anyway, and if you're borrowing them for the first time or proxing them to learn if you want to purchase them you usually won't know them well enough. Or is it different ranges of skill level being referred to when mentioning the "new player" attending the tourney that is tripping the disconnect?

[solkan]

47 minutes ago, 7thSquirrel said:

Firstly, let me say that is all that is true for getting new players into the game, in fact more insightful than I have currently thought through. I just have to ask, what does the below have to do with tourneys?
 

Shouldn't that all be pre-tourney, and then the tourneys begin when they are more or less past the initial fiddling around phase with at least one list? Formats like this should (IMO) only help with the wealth issue because if smart purchases are made (from proxing and experimenting in casual) you don't need as much. Is this just a perspective difference on when people should start attending tourneys? I generally try to mark that level at "can you play fast enough to plausibly finish in the time limit?". If you don't know your models well enough to do that it generally causes headaches in timed formats anyway, and if you're borrowing them for the first time or proxing them to learn if you want to purchase them you usually won't know them well enough.

From a certain perspective, the words "tournament" mean "Everyone's going to play three games today, and we've published the details ahead of time."  And that's all it means.  From that perspective, why shouldn't a new player show up with cardstock standees?

This was, after all, from the question of "How do you make tournaments more accessible?" which I assume is part of the "How do we get more players to play?" or "How do I get more players to attend this tournament?"

In other words, what do you mean a tournament can't be (or isn't) just as casual as the weekday gaming night?

 

[Squirrelich]

53 minutes ago, solkan said:

From a certain perspective, the words "tournament" mean "Everyone's going to play three games today, and we've published the details ahead of time."  And that's all it means.  From that perspective, why shouldn't a new player show up with cardstock standees?

This was, after all, from the question of "How do you make tournaments more accessible?" which I assume is part of the "How do we get more players to play?" or "How do I get more players to attend this tournament?"

In other words, what do you mean a tournament can't be (or isn't) just as casual as the weekday gaming night?

 

The only two noteworthy differences I see between casual and tourney are time limit (at least for me I get more time in casual games) and additional incentive to win (either physical prizes or pride). If a player can play their proxies fast enough not to hurt their opponents standings the time is not an issue. If the prizes (if there are any) are not supplied by Wyrd the incentive is not either (for me). But if Wyrd is supporting the attendees/winners, I think it is reasonable to expect then to support back with their product.

 

However, most of the events I look at attending are Wyrd supported.